Outbid and items reappearing on EBay a month later for auction
air4mdc
Posts: 937 ✭✭✭✭✭
Once in a while I find an item on EBAY from a particular seller who has 100 % feedback and thousands of sales and I always get out bid. Price range ranges from 300-1500$ in the auction for the item and always get outbid by possibly a sniper bid. Then about a month later I notice that the same item comes up for auction from the same seller again. There is no mention of a it being re-listed. I then do some research into the bid history and some of the items were won by the same bidder in the first auction. Is it a shill bid, a ghost bidder or possible questionable actions by the seller? Somethings not right.
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Hard to say without specifics. Could be any of those things. It could also be a return from the buyer, non-paying bidder, etc.
Shill bidding is super common on ebay. Welcome to the game.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Most likely a shill. Sometimes, I get a nonpayment item that has to be relisted, or a return. Usually on Non payment, Ill mention that. Not so much on returns, as it gives a stigma something is wrong with the coin. I over describe to begin with, just because one person doesnt like an item and returns it dosent mean the next person wont either.
Usually, on cheap items, that get returned, Ill usually just blow them out at the shop. That way it doesnt look suspicious
I have noticed that the items that are re-listed all were won in the last second like a snipe bid and it was the fist time the user bid out of 30 plus different bidders. I don’t know, just a pattern I noticed with the seller. All nice items, no dreck whatsoever.
If you are going to use a snipe program you don't bid before then so you don't tip your hand. That's not a red flag.
The month lag is more interesting - that's enough time to be sold, sent, and returned. vs. immediately re-listing it after a shill cancels their bids.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
That pattern, if repeated a few times, would certainly raise suspicions. It is true, however, that a volume seller could have non-payers or returns, certainly more frequently than a low volume seller. Cheers, RickO
This has happened to me several times this past week. Someone basically bids in the last remaining second and even when I have a built-in maximum bid, they are still able to overcome that bid with just a single second to go. There is no logical way that someone could submit several bids in a single second, given the many clicks that would be necessary. They cheat. But at least they tend not to get the item at the price they wanted, initially, so hopefully they suffer some buyer's remorse and that accounts for the aforementioned non-payments. Ebay should do something about this, but they will not--it is not in their self-interest.
In what way are they cheating?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
You don't have to cheat. If your max bid is $500 and the bid is only $20, I can enter a snipe bid of $10,000 in the last second and it will show as a single $510 bid on the auction. I don't need multiple bids to get there.
the penalty is still having to pay the fees.
Reckless faith in the dollar's strength is reckless. Tariff proposals have demonstrated this.
Must depend on the kinds of coins you bid on. I can't remember the last time I looked at the bidding history of something I bid on and saw anything that made me think the seller was shilling.
I demand you bid $21, $22, $23 [...] $499, $500, DAMMIT THE ITEM ENDED I WAS GOING TO BID $501!
I suppose. Though most shill bidding is not people bidding on their own items, it is more like texting/emailing your buddy and asking them to bid $x on it to backstop the auction and make sure it does not sell for too little. If they win, just cancel the sale and relist later, and you're only out of pocket the listing fees, if anything. I have seen it happen way too many times.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Every so often I'll have to relist an unpaid item (much more common than a return). I try to remember to add a note that the previous buyer didn't pay so if someone recognizes it, they don't think I was up to any games. I get particularly annoyed when it's a new/low feedback bidder who snipes, since that makes me look most suspicious to buyers. I do have a no tolerance policy for such games, though. Don't pay for an item or retract a bid without an excellent reason, and you're blocked.
All that said, if this is a seller who does this routinely with a wide variety of items and they're all originally won by the same buyer at different times (ie, not a one-time multi-item order the buyer didn't pay for), then that would be a good sign of potential shilling.
complain to ebay in detail.
I think they use auction sniping applications, at times.
There must be some sort of AI algorithm to detect shill bidders. I worked on something like that years ago for what ended up becoming Yelp. The idea was to detect fake reviews based on similar patterns coming from one IP address. The really clever fakes were what are now called "bots". They turned out to be really useful in campaign election interference. Cant believe EBay didn't think of something like that long ago. Yes, indeed DO ask Ebay, but downt expect them to give you a straight answer.
By the way, Shill Bidding can involve mutiple bidders. They are much more difficult to detect.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1567422319300080
I have been buying coins on eBay for over 20 years.
I have never once thought about, worried about, or even cared if a seller shills their items.
I pick my price and Not the shill.
Shills do not matter, at all, so why waste time even thinking about them.
Don't forget the buyers who purchase an item and once received they decide they paid too much and return. There are still buyers that consider eBay an approval service. As a seller, would you mention that the last winner decided after a couple weeks (after they shopped it around and could not sell higher) decided they needed to return it.
There is no way to determine who the bidders from the last auction are (that I know of).
Is that what you referred to as “cheat”(ing)?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Well they do matter if they don't win. The price of an item is set by the maximum the second highest bidder will pay plus an increment. If that second bidder's bid isn't real, then the price is artificially inflated.
Imagine there's an item you're willing to pay $100 for. A shill places a $75 bid and a genuine bidder places a $50 bid. With the shill, you pay $75+increment. Without the shill, you pay $50+increment. Either way you pay less than the $100 you're willing to pay, but the $75 bid is bogus because it only serves to inflate the price paid; if it wins, the item doesn't get sold. Meanwhile, a price history gives an inaccurate picture of what people (not just the single highest bidder) are actually willing to pay.
I would be super happy to win a coin for $75 if my bid was $100. I got the coin 25% Below my price. I could care less if the coin was shilled to $75.
So you wouldn’t rather buy it for $50+ increment?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If the coin is shilled, then You would not win the coin at a lower price. You would NOT end up with the coin.
I want the coin and 25% below MY price is awesome.
Do you want the coin or spend all your time looking for shills? Time is money!!!!
I think anybody would, but with a shill bid pushing the price to $75, that's not an option. At that point, the question would be:
Would you rather buy it for $75 or not at all?
There is a whole chunk of people out there that are creating fake auction results for the coin, tucking it aside, and then selling it again on another platform for "a bit less than I paid" 6-8 weeks later saying they have hit a rough patch and need money.
It is a dangerous illusion of value that is not there and can bait an inexperienced buyer.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Fair point!
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
You can't see identities, but the censored user ID is always the same for each bidder, so if you're A*****5, that's how you'll always appear. Also, if you click on the user ID, it will give you a breakdown of what that user bids on, so if you see a super high percentage of bids with just one specific seller, combined with other flags, it could be a sign something is amiss.
Are you defining shilling as only occurring if the shill wins, or any bid that is placed to raise the price without the intention to complete the transaction?
A shill is a shill. If the seller bids on his own items or has one of his proxies bid on an item it is a shill. Unethical yes.
It does not matter to me. The seller is setting his price unethically. I do not care, I just want the coin at my price or lower.
The coin could never be won for $50
Okay, now I understand where you're coming from. I still prefer the idealistic scenario where even if I pay the same price, I do so informed whether or not I'm the only person who thinks that price level is correct, but your point is well taken.
I just had a buyer return 10 silver eagles because eBay charged him sales tax, he claims (rightly, I think) that he shouldn't have paid it. Rather than fight with eBay or file a claim with his state, he returned the eagles to me. [Thank God for eBay and Managed Payments. No non-refundable PP fees and eBay let me withhold the shipping charges from the buyer.] There's lots of reasons why a return might happen. And, though they are rare, if you sell thousands of items you are going to have a few.
Could we get a link please.
To me, shilling is equivalent to a reserve. I wish people would just use a reserve or simply start the auction at the minimum acceptable price. But, in the end, it largely functions as a reserve.
So, while I don't approve of it or engage in it, like @ErrorsOnCoins I don't feel the need to waste any time thinking about it or worrying about it.
The fact is that even without the shill, you still couldn't buy it for $50 because the seller would have had a $75 reserve.
Shill Bidding is bidding that artificially increases an item’s price or apparent desirability, or bidding by individuals with a level of access to the seller’s item information not available to the general Community. Shill bidding is prohibited on eBay.
Because family members, roommates and employees of sellers have a level of access to item information which is not available to the general Community, they are not permitted to bid on items offered by the seller–even if their sole intent is to purchase the item. Family members, roommates or employees may purchase items from a seller without violating this policy simply by using purchase options–such as Buy It Now–which do not involve bidding.
eBay strongly encourages sellers with employees to ensure that their employees are aware of this policy and the possible consequences of violation.
Violations of this policy may result in a range of actions, including:
Listing cancellation
Limits on account privileges
Account suspension
Forfeit of eBay fees on canceled listings
Loss of PowerSeller status
Referral to Law Enforcement
It’s not that I care about the possible use of the seller using shills or a friend bidding up, I’m more disappointed that I stumbled on the sellers possible tactics. Over the last few years I have won some auctions and was very happy. But when some really nice top pop items appear for auction I have never won, even with a large max bid. In the last second it goes moon money and then a month or so it’s back up for auction again.
Same bidder on one auction won two of the top pop items, only to be returned to auction a month or so later.
There seems to be a pattern.
I know the best advice I can give myself is steer clear of this seller.
Which I will do.
Appreciate everyone’s help and advice to try to determine the nature of the sellers sold top pop items being re-listed.
Good point made.....I didn’t realize people would do that sort of thing. I purchase for me , myself and my heirs.
When you click on the total number of bids it will show the bid history. Both winners had the same everything.
That’s exactly how I have detected this. The buyer always buys in the coins and currency auctions as well. One seller had 48% activity with the seller. This was one of the re listed items.
You answered this yourself.
You have identified a shill.
Avoid.
I would like to pass along the auction results but I believe I could put myself in a not so good situation. I also don’t want to express alarm towards his business practices or his auctions. And, it is quiet viable this is all legit as mentioned for hand.
I’m learning and learning.
Thanks
Well how about the sellers who don't list bidder ID's? That is total BS and hidden trickery; I have bought from a few of these but the prices certainly appear to be manipulated.
Well, just Love coins, period.
I have a buyer right now that won an auction on 3/21. They message me every 3 or 4 days and ask for a little more time to pay. I have gone along with it but now I am seeing their feedback score growing. Seems they have money to pay other sellers but not me. I will cancel the sale tomorrow and relist. This is just one example why you may see something relisted a month later.
Buyer also has a false positive feedback from another seller "No Communication, No payment"
If anyone wants an ID for their BBL just PM me.
While you may detect a possible or probable shill bidder, it is difficult to prove, especially if the seller has a lot of positive feedback with low negative feedback. Ebay is out to make money, it will take a lot of proof to get a prominent seller banned. High volume sellers are seldom banned by ebay.
Not looking to take any action. Appreciate your viewpoint.