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So-Called "Ford Dollar" restrike sells for over $1,000!

ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,910 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited November 26, 2021 3:23PM in U.S. Coin Forum

I got blown out of the water on this HK-465 which ended up selling for $1,020.

I really wanted it as I love the look. It's way nicer than the originals, but $1k is a bit tough for me on this one. There's only one slabbed by NGC. Hopefully more will become available.

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    truebloodtrueblood Posts: 609 ✭✭✭✭

    Love the look too, but a restrike, why I don't get it

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,910 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021 5:56PM

    @trueblood said:
    Love the look too, but a restrike, why I don't get it

    Do you mean why a restrike so worth so much, or why this is considered a restrike and not an original?

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    291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,945 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @trueblood said:
    Love the look too, but a restrike, why I don't get it

    Do you mean why a restrike so worth so much, or why this is considered a restrike and not an original?

    Both! I'd like to know the story behind this medal.

    All glory is fleeting.
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    291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,945 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Now I see the "1973" date on the restrike. This would have been the 70th anniversary of the Ford Motor Company. Was this restrike an official Ford issue or done by a Ford fan?

    All glory is fleeting.
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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice token and high grade.... Special item for a collector of Ford memorabilia. Cheers, RickO

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,910 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2021 7:37AM

    @jonathanb said:
    I wonder what a silver one is worth...


    I'm not sure, but that one looks awesome! What other metals do they come in and how rare these are?

    So-CalledDollars.com mentions doesn't mention composition for the 1973 restrikes:

    NOTE: This medal was restruck in 1973. The later strikes have proof-like surfaces and a microscopic 1973 added to the reverse following the word Progress.

    It also mentions some other specimens. Has anyone seen these recently?

    NOTE: Copper, brass, and aluminum specimens of this medal started appearing on eBay in 2012 and 2013, all struck on thick planchets. The designs are generally similar to those shown here, although with enough minor differences to make them easily distinguishable even without looking at composition or thickness.

    https://www.so-calleddollars.com/Events/Century_of_Progress.html

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    jonathanbjonathanb Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't know if this was struck in any other metals. This one has an edge number of 11 so apparently they made at least that many. Maybe 25 total, if we assume a round number? This showed up on eBay about 10-15 years ago. I haven't seen any other silver versions since.

    The fraudulent ones have calmed down since they appeared in 2012-3. They still show up from time to time.

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,910 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2021 8:19AM

    @jonathanb said:
    I don't know if this was struck in any other metals. This one has an edge number of 11 so apparently they made at least that many. Maybe 25 total, if we assume a round number? This showed up on eBay about 10-15 years ago. I haven't seen any other silver versions since.

    Good to know. Is that yours? It's an awesome piece!

    Are these really restrikes? Are they struck with original dies with the 1973 stamped into the die?

    Are these known to have been struck by Ford or were they struck by an unrelated party?

    The fraudulent ones have calmed down since they appeared in 2012-3. They still show up from time to time.

    Have these been confirmed to be frauds? Did any evidence of where they came from ever show up or are the origins still unknown?

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    joeykoinsjoeykoins Posts: 14,893 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very equisuite coins. I guess my boss is cool and coin savvy after all? Lol.

    "Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!

    --- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.
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    jonathanbjonathanb Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins -- not true restrikes. They look "basically the same" at first glance, but there are enough differences that there's no problem telling them apart.

    The frauds all came from a single seller who I think was in the upper Midwest, maybe in Michigan if I remember right. They had 20-ish different types of exonumia, all with the same few compositions, surface finish, etc. Many of them were self-slabbed by the same self-slabbing "company". I'm confident they were intended to deceive. Fortunately, it looks like the seller got tired of the whole thing and sort of drifted away.

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    291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,945 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I just don't understand why anyone would bid that much for the medal shown in the original post. What am I missing?

    I have heard a story that the 1933 Originals were made for the Chicago Century of Progress but even that does not make sense. Ford was late to involve itself in the Century of Progress, waiting until the 1934 version when it opened it's Rotunda exhibition hall at the show. (The Rotunda was disassembled after the fair closed and reconstructed in Dearborn, Michigan. It burned down in the early 1960's.)

    All glory is fleeting.
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    keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I just don't understand why anyone would bid that much for the medal shown in the original post. What am I missing?

    what you are missing is that you don't collect So-Called Dollars or Ford memorabilia, if you did you might have had an interest in it. there are a lot of coins and Exonumia that I don't collect, such as Morgan Dollars. more power to those who chase them. to the subject medal, it has value, a large collector base and the high grade drove the price.

    is that so hard to understand??

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,910 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 10, 2021 2:56AM

    @jonathanb said:
    @Zoins -- not true restrikes. They look "basically the same" at first glance, but there are enough differences that there's no problem telling them apart.

    Good to know. I found an original 1933 slabbed by PCGS with a TrueView.

    The differences are very evident as you say, especially in the year "1933" and word "THIRTY".

    Is there any record of who struck the 1973 version?

    The frauds all came from a single seller who I think was in the upper Midwest, maybe in Michigan if I remember right. They had 20-ish different types of exonumia, all with the same few compositions, surface finish, etc. Many of them were self-slabbed by the same self-slabbing "company". I'm confident they were intended to deceive. Fortunately, it looks like the seller got tired of the whole thing and sort of drifted away.

    Very interesting. I've seen photos of a few of these but all raw, not in any slabs. Do you recall what slabs were used and other exonumia had been done?

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    291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,945 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @keets said:
    I just don't understand why anyone would bid that much for the medal shown in the original post. What am I missing?

    what you are missing is that you don't collect So-Called Dollars or Ford memorabilia, if you did you might have had an interest in it. there are a lot of coins and Exonumia that I don't collect, such as Morgan Dollars. more power to those who chase them. to the subject medal, it has value, a large collector base and the high grade drove the price.

    is that so hard to understand??

    I wish bidders like that had been around when I sold my medal collection back in the mid-1980's!

    All glory is fleeting.
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    keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭

    everything evens out. when sold your collection and probably got $10 for a nice medal, you have to remember that you probably paid $1 for it.

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    291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,945 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @keets said:
    everything evens out. when sold your collection and probably got $10 for a nice medal, you have to remember that you probably paid $1 for it.

    No. There were actually only a few medals I actually made money on. Most sold for less than my cost. Once the auction fees were deducted the loss was even higher. Medal collecting was a lot less popular back then than it is today. The market for most of the medals was thin.

    All glory is fleeting.
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    keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Exonumia has benefited quite well from the Internet, moreso than the overall coin market. look at how Tokens are doing right now. another area is Varieties and errors.

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,910 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @keets said:
    Exonumia has benefited quite well from the Internet, moreso than the overall coin market. look at how Tokens are doing right now. another area is Varieties and errors.

    Agree 100%. The Internet and digital photography, which you mentioned in another thread, are really help driving these areas.

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    jonathanbjonathanb Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins I found some more information in my old emails. The 1973 versions were produced by Allan R. Johnson of East Holden, Maine, who had a custom medal business. They were struck by Wendell's of Minneapolis. "500 or so" struck in bronze, 15 struck in silver. I purchased this silver version on eBay in 2008 directly from Allan, so that info should be accurate.

    I don't remember the self-slabbing "company" for the 2012-era fakes. I think the slabs had a gold-colored label. There were some "California gold" tokens produced by the same person, I forget which others. An earlier thread has pictures. I found a seller name in my archived email and that led me to a picture that is still online for a token with the same general feel as the others.

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,910 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 10, 2021 11:53AM

    @jonathanb said:
    @Zoins I found some more information in my old emails. The 1973 versions were produced by Allan R. Johnson of East Holden, Maine, who had a custom medal business. They were struck by Wendell's of Minneapolis. "500 or so" struck in bronze, 15 struck in silver. I purchased this silver version on eBay in 2008 directly from Allan, so that info should be accurate.

    Great info! Did he have any relationship with Ford? Do you know why Allan struck these?

    I don't remember the self-slabbing "company" for the 2012-era fakes. I think the slabs had a gold-colored label. There were some "California gold" tokens produced by the same person, I forget which others. An earlier thread has pictures. I found a seller name in my archived email and that led me to a picture that is still online for a token with the same general feel as the others.

    Do you mean lonestarsales2012 ?

    https://www.ebay.com/usr/lonestarsales2012

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    jonathanbjonathanb Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't know of any relationship with Ford or why he struck them, sorry.

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,910 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 10, 2021 9:53PM

    @jonathanb said:
    I don't remember the self-slabbing "company" for the 2012-era fakes. I think the slabs had a gold-colored label. There were some "California gold" tokens produced by the same person, I forget which others. An earlier thread has pictures. I found a seller name in my archived email and that led me to a picture that is still online for a token with the same general feel as the others.

    Here are the images for posterity.


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    tokenprotokenpro Posts: 846 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Besides being a bad copy of the original California gold miner counters, the piece pictured above is listed as being $10 gold size and not the 22mm $5 gold size of the originals.

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,910 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2021 11:38AM

    @jonathanb said:
    @Zoins I found some more information in my old emails. The 1973 versions were produced by Allan R. Johnson of East Holden, Maine, who had a custom medal business. They were struck by Wendell's of Minneapolis. "500 or so" struck in bronze, 15 struck in silver. I purchased this silver version on eBay in 2008 directly from Allan, so that info should be accurate.

    I've been curious about Allan R. Johnson for sometime but was not able to find more information until just now!

    It turns out he has a store card which is posted on TokenCatalog.com! It's cataloged as TC-141438. I love it when people leave behind artifacts of their existence :)

    http://tokencatalog.com/token_record_forms.php?action=DisplayTokenRecord&td_id=141438&inventory_id=80915&attribution_id=143144

    Another very interesting thing about Allan R. Johnson is that he's listed in the 1969 Department of Defense publication "National Directory of Qualified Fallout Shelter Analysts":

    https://books.google.com/books?id=N1rSJ5ISKqcC

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    ZoidMeisterZoidMeister Posts: 3,021 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Were the original pieces so difficult to obtain that it made restrikes financially feasible?

    I thought the originals were fairly common.

    Z

    Busy chasing Carr's . . . . . woof!

    Successful BST transactions with: Bullsitter, Downtown1974, P0CKETCHANGE, Twobitcollector, AKbeez, DCW, Illini420, ProofCollection, DCarr, Cazkaboom, RichieURich, LukeMarshall, carew4me, BustDMs, coinsarefun, PreTurb, felinfoal, jwitten, GoldenEgg, pruebas, lazybones, COCollector, CuKevin, MWallace, USMC_6115, NamVet69, zippcity, . . . . who'd I forget?

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jonathanb said:
    I don't know if this was struck in any other metals. This one has an edge number of 11 so apparently they made at least that many. Maybe 25 total, if we assume a round number? This showed up on eBay about 10-15 years ago. I haven't seen any other silver versions since.

    The fraudulent ones have calmed down since they appeared in 2012-3. They still show up from time to time.

    The edge number could also refer to the design type not the coin number.

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    jdimmickjdimmick Posts: 9,604 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Darn,

    I had bought a collection last year that had 4 of these in there. Not in this kind of shape, but I sold them for a couple bucks a piece.

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    ZoidMeisterZoidMeister Posts: 3,021 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jdimmick said:
    Darn,

    I had bought a collection last year that had 4 of these in there. Not in this kind of shape, but I sold them for a couple bucks a piece.

    The originals or the restrikes?

    I'm thinking the restrikes are a bit more difficult to come by.

    Z

    Busy chasing Carr's . . . . . woof!

    Successful BST transactions with: Bullsitter, Downtown1974, P0CKETCHANGE, Twobitcollector, AKbeez, DCW, Illini420, ProofCollection, DCarr, Cazkaboom, RichieURich, LukeMarshall, carew4me, BustDMs, coinsarefun, PreTurb, felinfoal, jwitten, GoldenEgg, pruebas, lazybones, COCollector, CuKevin, MWallace, USMC_6115, NamVet69, zippcity, . . . . who'd I forget?

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    ByersByers Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @keets

    You are correct:

    “Exonumia has benefited quite well from the Internet, moreso than the overall coin market. look at how Tokens are doing right now. another area is Varieties and errors.“

    Restrikes are increasing in price, interest and collectability!

    mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
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    jdimmickjdimmick Posts: 9,604 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Im thinking they were probably the lesser originals

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,910 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jdimmick said:
    Im thinking they were probably the lesser originals

    I wouldn't say the originals are "lesser", but perhaps more common?

    You can see some for comparison here:

    https://coins.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?N=790+231+51&Nty=1&Ntt=1933+ford&ic10=ArchiveTab-071515

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    moursundmoursund Posts: 3,207 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @291fifth said:

    @keets said:
    I just don't understand why anyone would bid that much for the medal shown in the original post. What am I missing?

    what you are missing is that you don't collect So-Called Dollars or Ford memorabilia, if you did you might have had an interest in it. there are a lot of coins and Exonumia that I don't collect, such as Morgan Dollars. more power to those who chase them. to the subject medal, it has value, a large collector base and the high grade drove the price.

    is that so hard to understand??

    I wish bidders like that had been around when I sold my medal collection back in the mid-1980's!

    Maybe that bidder was around... But you need two to drive up the price...

    100th pint of blood donated 7/19/2022 B) . Transactions with WilliamF, Relaxn, LukeMarshal, jclovescoins, braddick, JWP, Weather11am, Fairlaneman, Dscoins, lordmarcovan, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, JimW. God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that who so believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.
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    keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The frauds all came from a single seller who I think was in the upper Midwest, maybe in Michigan if I remember right. They had 20-ish different types of exonumia, all with the same few compositions, surface finish, etc.

    did this individual strike the HK-299's that were common around 10 years ago for a short while?? I bought one of those and also own one of the OP issues. the quality of both is pretty good though different from the originals with more than a passing glance.

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    jonathanbjonathanb Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @keets said:
    did this individual strike the HK-299's that were common around 10 years ago for a short while?? I bought one of those and also own one of the OP issues. the quality of both is pretty good though different from the originals with more than a passing glance.

    I don't remember restrikes of HK-299. I have a non-deceptive copy (that is even marked as COPY) but it sounds like you're talking about something else.


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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,910 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2021 5:57PM

    @jonathanb said:

    @keets said:
    did this individual strike the HK-299's that were common around 10 years ago for a short while?? I bought one of those and also own one of the OP issues. the quality of both is pretty good though different from the originals with more than a passing glance.

    I don't remember restrikes of HK-299. I have a non-deceptive copy (that is even marked as COPY) but it sounds like you're talking about something else.


    Aside from the COPY stamp (which looks like it's not on the die), would you say it's non-deceptive?

    It seems like the dies could have been used to strike pieces at least as deceptive as the modern Ford Dollars?

    Here's a HK-299 from PCGS to compare:

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    jonathanbjonathanb Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The HK=299 copy is non-deceptive, regardless of the COPY stamp. It's cast from some lightweight material. I don't know why someone bothered to make a copy, but they didn't try to hide it.

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,910 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2021 7:37PM

    @jonathanb said:
    The HK=299 copy is non-deceptive, regardless of the COPY stamp. It's cast from some lightweight material. I don't know why someone bothered to make a copy, but they didn't try to hide it.

    Is it kind of like the cast coin copies? Why do people make those?

    The cast copies of vintage Chinese coins sold on China Town streets aren't meant to rob people of money given how cheap they are, but I'm not sure if buyers think the originals are just as cheap. Of course, the very same cast copy coin being sold on eBay could be seen as deception.

    I could see yours as being made and sold on AliExpress.

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    keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't remember restrikes of HK-299.

    similar to the OP medal, I don't think it's proper to call them restrikes. they look very similar and of high quality but have differences that are easily seen. mine is PL but I'm not sure what it's made of, probably a base metal with plating.

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,910 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2021 3:43AM

    @keets said:
    I don't remember restrikes of HK-299.

    similar to the OP medal, I don't think it's proper to call them restrikes. they look very similar and of high quality but have differences that are easily seen. mine is PL but I'm not sure what it's made of, probably a base metal with plating.

    @jonathanb said:
    @Zoins -- not true restrikes. They look "basically the same" at first glance, but there are enough differences that there's no problem telling them apart.

    I agree restrike isn't the proper term for the 1973 issue but that's the term HK 2nd edition uses. Perhaps it will change in the 3rd edition?

    From a terminology perspective, if pieces are made from transfer dies, I consider them to be restrikes in a loose sense since the old process for regular strikes was to create working dies from master hubs, which were themselves created from master dies. If they are made from completely new dies, I consider them to be tributes or replicas, which is the case here. Since this says "1973" on it, I'd consider these to be tributes. I'd consider the circa 2012 pieces to be replicas. with the caveat that they come in different compositions.

    Here's an excerpt from HK:

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,910 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here are some photos from the circa 2012 pieces for completeness.

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    keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭

    it's probably more accurate to refer to each of these as a Replica.

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,910 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2021 7:28AM

    @keets said:
    it's probably more accurate to refer to each of these as a Replica.

    Perhaps, but I don't see people in the hobby use the term Replica when referring to specific issues, which I do think interesting. What seems to be more common would be to see something like Johnson Copy, which is used for the Bolen and Idler replicas, e.g. "Bolen Copy", "Idler Copy", etc. Also when discussing the Horatio Nelson Rust Fugio cents, which are currently called the "New Haven Restrike" Fugios, Tom @CaptHenway suggested the term Novodel.

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    keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭

    here we go again, circular argument. have fun.

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,910 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2021 8:18AM

    @keets said:
    here we go again, circular argument. have fun.

    You can interpret it that way if you wish but it's not.

    I actually used to argue for the Replica term with the so-called New Haven Restrike Fugios, but, from what I've seen, people simply don't use the term in the hobby when referring to specific issues. Can you point to a place where it's used?

    Here are examples of Copy being used, which I referred to:

    "Bolen Copy" used by Heritage:

    https://coins.ha.com/itm/colonials/-1862-bolen-copy-of-bar-cent-silver-uncertified/a/1108-1993.s

    "Idler Copy" used by PCGS:

    https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1859-token-w-15660-copper-kenney-2-idler-copy-rd/534658

    It's fine if you're not interested in a discussion, but the topic is one I've participated in and found fascinating for many years.

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    ZoidMeisterZoidMeister Posts: 3,021 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Might I suggest the use of the term "Tribute"?

    Z

    Busy chasing Carr's . . . . . woof!

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,910 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2021 8:27AM

    @ZoidMeister said:
    Might I suggest the use of the term "Tribute"?

    Z

    From Allan's intentions, it does seem Tribute could be appropriate as well.

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    ZoidMeisterZoidMeister Posts: 3,021 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2021 8:38AM

    @Zoins said:

    @ZoidMeister said:
    Might I suggest the use of the term "Tribute"?

    Z

    From Allan's intentions, it does seem Tribute could be appropriate as well.

    I am still pondering why the creator felt the need to make these pieces when the originals seem to be quite plentiful. The alternate metal compositions are quite intriguing.

    These are similar to what Jeff Shevlin has made for his So-Called Dollar Gatherings giving tribute to other HK listed pieces.

    Seeing these were made in 2012, two years before Shevlin's first gathering medal was made, perhaps these gave him the inspiration?

    Z

    Busy chasing Carr's . . . . . woof!

    Successful BST transactions with: Bullsitter, Downtown1974, P0CKETCHANGE, Twobitcollector, AKbeez, DCW, Illini420, ProofCollection, DCarr, Cazkaboom, RichieURich, LukeMarshall, carew4me, BustDMs, coinsarefun, PreTurb, felinfoal, jwitten, GoldenEgg, pruebas, lazybones, COCollector, CuKevin, MWallace, USMC_6115, NamVet69, zippcity, . . . . who'd I forget?

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,910 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2021 8:41AM

    @ZoidMeister said:

    @Zoins said:

    @ZoidMeister said:
    Might I suggest the use of the term "Tribute"?

    Z

    From Allan's intentions, it does seem Tribute could be appropriate as well.

    I am still pondering why the creator felt the need to make these pieces when the originals seem to be quite plentiful.

    For the 1973 pieces, you have to transport yourself back to 1973 when there was no Internet and these weren't worth anything. I wasn't there but I'm guessing it's like calling a dealer on the phone and asking them to find a piece in their junk box ;)

    The alternate metal composition are quite intriguing.

    For the 2012 pieces, it seems the creator was trying to sell them as rare off metals. They are listed as counterfeits on https://so-calleddollars.com and there was a very fishy story about them when they came out. It's amazing that this is almost 10 years ago now. Crazy how time flies!

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    ZoidMeisterZoidMeister Posts: 3,021 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Now I'm confused.

    I thought the tributes were struck in 2012. Were the dies made in 1973?

    Z

    Busy chasing Carr's . . . . . woof!

    Successful BST transactions with: Bullsitter, Downtown1974, P0CKETCHANGE, Twobitcollector, AKbeez, DCW, Illini420, ProofCollection, DCarr, Cazkaboom, RichieURich, LukeMarshall, carew4me, BustDMs, coinsarefun, PreTurb, felinfoal, jwitten, GoldenEgg, pruebas, lazybones, COCollector, CuKevin, MWallace, USMC_6115, NamVet69, zippcity, . . . . who'd I forget?

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