How do you value SSCA passenger gold?
Wahoo554
Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭✭
Coins like the 1857-S double eagles are common and it’s easy to determine market rates on those, but what about coins like unique small denomination $1, $2.50 and $5 coins? Assume these are attractive examples with CAC approval, but not necessarily condition census. Here’s an example:
http://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-N4LP4
This very nice looking 51-D $5 AU55 CAC sold for $9,300. CAC price guide for an AU55 example is $5500 so this one sold for about 70% over guide. I have no idea whether this was a good deal or an overbuy if it ever came to selling down the road. Seems like the price was about right to me, but that’s just gut. I often see not so nice examples of uninspiring issues for sale for premiums of 3x the price guides or more. Those seem too high.
Anyways, there’s no exact science to it, but what kind of premium do you think makes sense for collector grade examples of passenger gold from the SSCA that are eye appealing and nice enough for CAC approval? I’m interested in objective market based opinions rather than purely subjective ones. I understand that there are some people out there that would pay no Premium, but that doesn’t reflect the general market. Assume these are the kind of coins that would be in demand absent the provenance, but aren’t otherwise especially unique or attention grabbing. What is your rationale for the premium you come up with?
Comments
Based on the results in what I must assume was a fair and open auction, it would appear the premium on a $5,500 coin, far removed from its bullion value, is $3,800. It's more than I'd want to pay, but that doesn't matter.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
I will be very interested in what more experienced collectors have to say on this topic. I have often wondered about the large price difference between SSCA and non-SSCA coins. As you have stated it is common for the difference to be in the 50-70% range. I wonder if that is because there are collectors trying to build just shipwreck sets and some of the smaller denominations don't have high numbers in shipwreck holders.
Successful BST with BustDMs , Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino (CBH's - 17 Die Marriage's)
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
I understand the premium for shipwreck gold.... Though I would not pay it. Many collectors are attracted to such things. That is why people buy homes or cars that once belonged to some celebrity or public figure. I just don't care about such things. If I were in the business though, I would make it a point to have such items for sale - they make collectors dig deep. Cheers, RickO
I would pay a premium for this history but never enough. Someone always pays more happened last night.
The buyer is speculating there wasn't much Dahlonega gold on that ship. He's probably right.
It would be good for the marketplace to see an accurate inventory of what has been brought up to date.
Buy the coin and forget about paying a history premium.
Over time the premium on these items will drop. Just as with anything new, the number of transactions and prices tend to be highest when there is the greatest interest. We're still in that phase with the S.S. Central America.
More shipwreck discoveries will be made and more coins salvaged. The technology to reach most shipwrecks hasn't been around very long. Central America may always remain the big one but as time passes other neat things will compete for our attention and dollars.
If a hoard of NE and Willow Tree coins was found on Oak Island, you wouldn't want one? What about a coin from a lost Confederate cache? Use your imagination. What treasure would you like own a piece of?
.** Over time the premium on these items will drop. Just as with anything new, the number of transactions and prices tend to be highest when there is the greatest interest. We're still in that phase with the S.S. Central America.**
That’s what everyone thought the first round of 1857-S $20’s never happened.
This is a tough thing to calculate. What is the value of sunken treasure? A rusty canonball that might go on eBay for a couple hundred bucks would probably sell for 100x that amount if provenanced to a well known pirate ship. It’s an emotional response more than applying an X% markup. Personally I would pay a lot more than book value because I think treasure is cool.
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
that's a nice looking coin
The inventory of both recoveries has been published.
I haven't seen the dimes and silver per date where is it?
A gold coin from an Eastern mint returning from California to the East at that time would probably have some interesting stories to tell.
You may have me there. It's been awhile...they may just list the number of silver coins as a group found. Seems like there is a link posted here on the forum if you can search it out.
If interested in the second recovery I suggest getting a copy of America’s Greatest Treasure Ship: the S.S. Central America – the Second Treasure-Finding Journey. Took me a while to find the book, but it was well worth the effort. Has a lot of great coin pictures. For the record, the earlier referenced 51-D is the plate coin in the book.
I am not trying to be negative at all, and I have an appreciation for historical artifacts such as these.
But I am always curious about the apparent hypocrisy or inconsistency in the way various salvaged material is treated.
For example, there are a lot of people who don't think artifacts should be salvaged from the Titanic because of all the people who were lost (although virtually all succumbed in the water, not on the ship), but for other wrecks, if there is enough gold and other treasure on board, no one worries about that.
"Passenger gold" - did the passengers leave it behind when they escaped or did they accompany it to the bottom?
Many passengers stuffed their pockets and money belts full of gold before they jumped overboard with entirely predictable results.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
This is true. There are also accounts of passengers throwing gold coins into the ocean as they resigned themselves to their fate. It’s interesting to speculate whether the passenger gold that was salvaged came from the pockets of the victims. It’s a macabre subject, but I would assume that the final resting place of victims of the disaster would end up too far from the boat for that to be likely. I would assume that the passenger gold recovered at the site of the wreck was left on the boat in passenger cabins/luggage or thrown overboard. It is worth pointing out that passengers in lifeboats were instructed to only take up to two double eagles with them.
Coin collecting can be very macabre. Think about it. Where have our coins been? The collections of those who have passed and left behind, etc.
Here are some fascinating images of passenger gold in situ from the second recovery: