The most revolutionary Hobby advancement in the past 20 years.
keets
Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
What do you think is the most revolutionary Hobby advancement in the past 20 years?? I think it is Digital Imaging.
I recall when I first re-joined the Hobby around late 1999 and early 2000. A short while later I bought a Ricoh camera that I think had a whopping 1.2 mega-pixels. At the time I think former member Russ was maybe the best forum shutter bug and he helped quite a number of us who, like me, had no prior photography experience. Fast forward to the present and consider how much imaging has changed the way we interact and collect. I suppose right at this forum there are no less than 15-20 members who do coin photography on a professional level, catalogues now have high resolution pictures, auction sites now give us the ability to view a Dime as large as a dinner plate with crystal clarity. That last one has really changed how auction are run. Maybe biggest of all is how our collections can be safeguarded yet we still have the ability to view our coins at any time during the day or night!!! I think that's huge: my collection can be in a bank SDB and at the same time on a tiny thumb drive or even on a cell phone in my pocket.
So that's my take on the biggest advancement. Do you agree with me?? If not, what do you think has had a bigger effect on how we collect in the past 20 years??
Al H.
Comments
Related, but just the fact that the internet has enabled proliferation of many different hobbies.
Think back to the Beanie Baby Collectors who were enabled by EBay. If one is into home repairs as a hobby, there are now a myriad of Youtube videos to go to for instruction. Of course, the impact of the internet on coin collecting has been substantial.
Both digital imaging and internet sales are big evolutionary changes in the hobby. They existed before in other forms but were made much more accessible and easier for sure. I’d also think registry set collecting would be way up there in major changes. It influenced the pricing of coins, what gets collected (and in what holder), and spawned more attention to grading consistency, holder labels, etc.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
I can see where registry set collecting has had a major impact, but I don’t think I’d call it an “advancement”. Thoughts?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
CAC ???
Imaging and Online Auctions for sure
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Growth of available information, directly advanced by the internet. That information includes pictures, pricing, auction access, CoinFacts, coin board participation etc and all of which has been provided immediately.
The internet has been the most revolutionary/disruptive for sure. Many brick and mortar coins stores are out of business because of it. The availability of any coin, at any time, has opened up the hobby.
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$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
@keets, you have a good point.
Without the revolution in digital imaging, the current business models of dealers and auction houses could never have developed.
The only thing that might come close is the explosion of information. Pop reports, realized auction prices, the ability to track coins over time, and more than anything, easy access to this information has changed buying and collecting habits tremendously. No longer is a coin worth $X because I say so. No longer do average collectors consider a 3-legged buffalo, a 1916-D dime, or a HR 1907 Saint as something that is difficult to locate.
@MFeld said: "I can see where registry set collecting has had a major impact, but I don’t think I’d call it an “advancement”. Thoughts?"
That's a challenging question. My answer may seem a bit equivocal, but I might say that the registry, overall, has been good for the hobby, but it would be hard to call it an advancement.
On the plus side, it has likely brought a new cohort of (sometimes well-heeled) collectors to the hobby. It has helped to sustain some degree of enthusiasm and perhaps a reasonable healthy competitive camaraderie.
There have arguably been downsides as well, most notably, perhaps, some degree of obsession with numerical grade over a more holistic view of quality. More generally (in life and in coins), standards are important, but we need to be careful not to be too in thrall to the standards set by others. Personally, for example, I don't see that there is a material difference between a PR70 and a PR69. I can find an Oregon commem grading MS65 that is arguably as attractive as many of the pop top examples.
More specifically with respect to "advancement," others may have better insights, but I'm not sure that the registry has done much to advance numismatic knowledge, history, etc. Also, for perhaps the majority of collectors, the registry is almost completely irrelevant. It's possible, for example, for a careful and patient collector to put together a fabulous set of classic commemoratives grading in the 64 - 65. (harder, perhaps, than putting together a top ten registry set). As I've said elsewhere, my favorite US type collection is the one assembled by Marvin Taichert, though it was raw, and wouldn't have fit into any obvious category even if it had been slabbed.
....Did someone mention Beanie Babies?
- Jim
It depends on how you look at it. It certainly is an advancement in that it’s far, far easier to see what your peers are doing and rank yourself accordingly. And, to some extent, compare quality of collection as well as slot filling.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
CAC and similar are more a minor evolution of TPGs. The TPGs themselves were revolutionary but past the 20 year mark.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
(> @MFeld said:
For me, the registry has added a bit of fun competition to the hobby. I think for most of our intents and purposes that would be considered an added value and as such an advancement.
Good post. I think it's a combination of items all tied to easy access to info, including:
One thing that we don't have yet is Full Step Memorial Cents. 20 steps!
I clicked on this thread expecting to find a discussion about mint green slab boxes with gold cacs. Back in the day we actually collected coins. Now it's stickers and box colors, sorry not revolutionary but it is what it is.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
The trend toward collecting insignificant "errors" and "varieties". This indicates a level of desperation among collectors of limited means. They are priced out of the market for coins of any real interest or quality.
That is definitely happening but that's not my interpretation.
The Internet has shown that many "rare coins" are not "rare" and there's a desire for interesting, rare items, whether it is error, variety, toning, condition, etc. People don't want average or just okay, at many price levels.
This is actually tied to the OP in that I think great photography leads to people wanting photogenic coins.
High tech imaging is still beyond the grasp of many collectors of the quality that True View offers; what would be revolutionary would be making that easy and fool proof for all; would like to see hand held grading estimators (as well as problem identifiers). Also scanning technology to identify all covid carriers. Maybe we will see such Star Trek like technology eventually.
@291fifth said: "The trend toward collecting insignificant "errors" and "varieties". This indicates a level of desperation among collectors of limited means. They are priced out of the market for coins of any real interest or quality."
Wow, that's a strong statement. I couldn't disagree more. For one thing, there are lots of interesting coins within reach of collectors of limited means. Also, although I am personally not into searching through thousands of coins in search of varieties, I can imagine that it would be fun for some people, and I certainly wouldn't equate it with desperation, any more than I would, for example, trying to gain a few extra points on the registry.
Not only do I agree with you 100% - I went as far as sending this letter to our host a couple of years back. It was shot down.
WS
1/20/2019
Mr. Brett Charville
President
PCGS
PO BOX 9458
New Port Beach, California
92658
Dear Brett:
I recently got back from the FUN show and while thinking about that experience, I came up with what I hope will be a great suggestion.
In this digital age of coin collecting we have seen the art of coin photography expand significantly. You need not go any further than down the hall of PCGS to see the amazing work of your own employees creating TrueView images. Prior to the advent of the digital age coin photographs where only seen in auction catalogs, and printed periodicals. Yet we collectors rarely saw coins for sale photographed. And sadly, many of those great photographers are unknown to us but we still appreciate their art when we thumb through past books, periodicals, catalogs, etc.
On these very PCGS forums and numerous numismatic web sites the posting of coin photos both amateur and professional now happen every day. Not to mention, the pressure is on for many dealers to have coin photographs if they want to be competitive. We cannot even imagine Great Collections, Stacks Bowers Galleries, or Heritage having an auction without photographs. Even on eBay a photo is necessary if you want to sell a simple wheat cent.
The indirect push of coin related photography can be seen in the creative formats, backdrops, exploded views and microscopic pictures now used to demonstrate and educate fellow collectors on a myriad of topics from whizzing or what a repunched mint mark looks like. And then there is that absolutely insane 3-dimensional coin photography of Ray Parkhurst! Ray goes by rmpsrpms on the coin forum. He puts together photography equipment exclusively for coin photography. Many coin forums discussions stop in their tracks if the poster cannot produce a photograph of a coin in question. Just a scan of the 48 posted topics on the PCGS coin talk forum on 1/20/19 showed only 8 of the 48 topics did NOT have a coin photograph.
Now when you go to a show, a professional coin photographer like Todd (BluCC) are readily available to photograph your coins. Vendors can also be found selling microscope and digital stereoscopes that connect to your monitor so you can take pictures of your coins. The advent of photo software has also enhanced the opportunities for collectors to try coin photography at home and even the cell phone now has amazing lens attachments to take coin pictures – who knew!
So where am I going with all of this? I think in order for PCGS to be the world class leader in this hobby you should consider a coin photography exhibit that embraces this art form and the many people and types of photographs that are part of today’s collecting experience. Allow me to describe what I envision and granted it does not take into consideration financial cost, business barriers, or what it would take to make it a reality – it’s just my idea.
First there would need to be a professional photo exhibit planner or committee. The group would hold a public invitational of professional and amateur photographers to submit 2-3 of their best coin pictures for consideration. I want to emphasis this is not about pictures of rare coins but rather what it takes to capture an amazing large format photograph of any coin. After the selection of photos is done each photographer gets a max of one paragraph describing themselves as a collector and type of photograph equipment used. These will be posted near the 2-3 pictures from each photographer selected for the exhibit. Even non-collectors would be blown away with the art, design and beauty of our coinage in high resolution large format coin pictures.
The exhibit would premiere at the ANA Headquarters mid-year for the numismatic press and regular press to attend. Black tie, wine and cheese, etc. From there its promotion gathers steam until its first launch at FUN, followed by each of the major shows in the year who want to pony up and have the exhibit as part of their show. This way it travels the country. Maybe even PCGS uses some of the best pictures in their annual calendar?
Funding can be raised at all levels with everything from forum donations and show solicitations. Maybe $2 of each Long Beach Show entrance fee goes towards the exhibit to cover design, construction, and shipping. Dealers would gladly pay promotional advertising at the gateway of the exhibit hall. Is it to ridicules to suggest all the TPG’s work on this together since the coins photographed may in fact be graded by different companies? Or, PCGS can do it all themselves.
Anyway, you get the idea- A world class coin photography exhibit to promote another avenue of the hobby as well as the photographers behind it and gives PCGS credit for being a leader in the hobby who understands how this once minor activity has now become and will continue to be a major part of this hobby.
And lastly there is the education component. I understand there is a book being written about photography copyright by Kevin Flynn? More recently PCGS reduced the number of accessible TrueView images without a good explanation as to why? Other coin forums I visit have strict rules in place about posting coin photographs. Maybe all this is leading to a subject that needs to be discussed more fully and this exhibit may be the vehicle to get the word out.
Thank you in advance for your time and consideration. I wish you the best while working at PCGS.
Sincerely,
Bob Dodson
(WaterSport)
Well, that's a tough question, I don't know what you call it. The evolution of search engines perhaps.... The expansion and fervent growth of coin collectables besides us coins: World coins, Exonumia, tokens, errors, medals, all has exploded in the past 20 years... And yes digital photography has a lot to do with that as well as the ease of finding such items or should I say based on how you search, those items find you more often than ever before..
I agree completely. A stroke of pure marketing genius. I have no interest at all in "competitive collecting", but I still have to recognize the genius in it.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't an optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
I’d say mobile technology, which provides the ability to view, purchase and pay for items with a few clicks on your smartphone.
Dave
I totally agree with your original assessment.
I think a few of the items mentioned have been major regressions and detriments to the hobby, contributing to the increased "dumbing down" of the hobby.
Agree....And PCGS is why...They are fantastic although their grading standards have changed recently.
NGC is still really bad on photos but is catching up.
CAC will soon be obsolete because they are very inconsistant and high resolution pictures have proven it.
I think the next move will be from market grading to technical grading.
My Saint Set
I was buying proof sets at shows and selling them on eBay. At best the changes in the Internet must be considered evolutionary rather than revolutionary.
The Set Registry was created in 2001, so the question of "...in the last twenty years" works well.
"The dawning of a new era rose upon our hobby in 2001 when the PCGS Set Registry went online. Launching in February of that year, the PCGS Set Registry was the first such collecting initiative our hobby had ever seen, pioneering a new way for coin collectors to build their collections, show them off to others, and compete with one another for top honors. Just 15 sets received awards in 2002. Today, PCGS recognizes hundreds of different sets with its annual awards – growth that mirrors the phenomenal explosion in popularity of the PCGS Set Registry, which now boasts more than 120,000 sets inclusive of virtually every nation world and spanning all numismatic genres.
So, how did it all begin? The idea came to light in the late 1990s, as PCGS thought-leaders cobbled together a list of the all-time finest sets and then-current finest sets and published their grade-point averages level of completion in brochures. These PCGS Set Registry brochures helped fuel excitement among collectors, inspiring PCGS innovators to develop a way of building competitive Set Registries online. When the PCGS Set Registry hit the internet in February 2001, it launched with 327 sets – a number that doubled by the beginning of that summer.
By the time World Coin Registry Sets premiered in February 2003, more than 5,000 sets had been registered, with 10,000 online by the end of the following year. Over the years, thousands of PCGS Set Registry Awards have been presented, and the PCGS Set Registry Hall of Fame reads like a Who’s Who of Numismatics, honoring many of our hobby’s finest collectors and luminaries for their achievements and contributions.
But what has the PCGS Set Registry done to change the hobby? If one thinks about it, the advent of the PCGS Set Registry represents a sea change in the way collectors collect coins – and the types of coins they collect. Before the PCGS Set Registry, how many collectors in our (still) analog surfed the web to enjoy numismatics? Consider that, when the PCGS Set Registry launched in 2001, approximately 8% of the world using the internet – that’s a share that has since jumped to 62%, according to Internet World Stats.
No statistics can furnish a figure on what percentage of coin collectors were frequent internet users in 2001. However, the relative paucity of online numismatic resources – let alone a dearth of coin dealers or coin clubs connected to the Information Superhighway – speaks volumes about the wanting state of the hobby’s online presence then. The PCGS Set Registry, coupled with PCGS CoinFacts, which debuted in 1999, persuaded many collectors to hop aboard the internet, and the results have been phenomenal since.
Still, the PCGS Set Registry did more than help revolutionizes the appeal of the internet for coin collectors – it also helped create a new marketplace for top-pop coins. While collectors had always vied for top-grade coins, perhaps only a handful of collectors were really concerned about buying an MS68 example of a particular Lincoln Memorial Cent over an MS65 or MS66 specimen of that same issue. Yet, the arrival of the PCGS Set Registry and its heavy reliance upon the judging of “best” sets based on grade-point averages suddenly meant that adding the single-finest 1996-D Lincoln Cent – or 1973 Eisenhower Dollar – could mean the difference between achieving the all-time best set and coming in second place.
Sharp increases in value for so-called modern “super-grade” coins during the mid-2000s. In the years since, it is almost surely linked to the rise in Registry Sets' rise and the hobby-wide realization that many of these top-grade modern coins are much rarer than conventional wisdom may suggest. Superior modern coins have earned a degree of importance in the marketplace that would have been perhaps unimaginable to collectors as recently as the 1980s and 1990s.
So, too, has the marketplace for world coinage heated up. With world coins enjoying a significant share of the PCGS Set Registry activity and serving as one of the fastest-growing segments of the Set Registry universe, collectors worldwide find enjoyment in building sets of coins representing their home nations as well as others. This has also helped make the international numismatic community feel much smaller and more interconnected than ever before.
With the creation of the PCGS Set Registry, collectors can now “tour” some of the finest collections around without ever having to leave the comforts of home. At one time not so many years ago, a collector wishing to view the world’s finest cabinets had to wait to see those coins in a museum, at a coin show, or in another physical setting – then travel there to view them. Now, collectors can readily click around on the PCGS Set Registry and explore the many splendid coins in the finest coin sets from around the world with a few clicks of the computer or tap on the phone. This has inspired many collectors to try their hand at building their own versions of these magnificent sets on the PCGS Set Registry – maybe even top them!
Friendly competition aside, the PCGS Set Registry enhances something that has been at the root of our hobby since its days as the pastime of ancient royalty: the thrill and enjoyment of building a coin collection. Even the most deep-pocketed collectors, those with virtually unlimited funds, must spend years completing the sets of their dreams, fervently bidding at auctions for elusive coins that may appear for sale only once in a generation. With the PCGS Set Registry, collectors of every age, income, and background are inspired to join in the fun and build their own sets – to fulfill their own numismatic passions and to put on display for the world to see.
Not that such a desire is anything new. Collectors like John Clapp, Louis Eliasberg, and King Farouk built collections known the world over. However, with the PCGS Set Registry, every member has the chance to exhibit their collections to the masses. But it’s so much more than show-and-tell gone digital. Rather, it’s the opportunity to collect coins on a whole new level while achieving and enjoying meaningful awards and numismatic acclaim with coin sets hand-built through the passage of time, dedication, and persistence."
peacockcoins
"I agree—a stroke of pure marketing genius. I have no interest at all in "competitive collecting," but I still have to recognize the genius in it."
I agree 100%. Brilliant move. And just look what it's done to the price of common coins. But I have zero interest in participating.
I don't, either, but I'll happily sell coins to those who do.
"real interest" is in the eye of the beholder.
Personally, I enjoy the adventure of searching for rare stuff, as @Zoins described.
And I enjoy even more just identifying varieties, usually by "collecting" (digital) photos and not acquiring coins.
Other folks enjoy taking possession of coins, and that's perfectly fine, too.
Many people see varieties as trivia; my dad is one of those people!
A hybrid approach that I've seen is when people have acquired all the dates/mint marks in their series
(or maybe all they can afford at their target grade), but they enjoy buying, so they start going for
varieties, to increase the set size, and the number of coins they can buy for their newly extended set.
One thing I learned from coin club is that people have different approaches to the hobby,
and it's nice to be friendly and enjoy those different perspectives.
Pricing and TPG value of coins.
@keets.... I agree with your assessment. Although the internet itself has been incredibly impactive on the hobby, I recall when the first picture(s) were posted here on the forum. People were amazed. Actually, for many, I do not think they had thought of posting pictures, and for the rest, it seemed too complicated. Those pictures would not even favorably compare with most of those posted now - but they started the entire coin photography effort. Cheers, RickO
RickO et al, certainly the Internet was HUGE, but within the timeframe I referenced, the last 20 years, the Internet had already been well established for at least five years. think Windows 95 and Phone modems, downloading a program that took 45 minutes, no images with eBay or their chief competitors Yahoo and TeleTrade!!!
by the time 2000 rolled around all that had changed, so yes, the Internet was monumental but falls outside of my 20 year timeframe. Digital Imaging changed the whole landscape of the Internet. the only thing really close to being as impactful might be Cell Phones, but they've changed the entire World and should stand alone for that reason.
I agree with you, @keets. Digital imaging has changed this hobby so much and for the better. I’d say that the evolution of online shopping, particularly eBay, follows close behind in its impact.
My Eisenhower Dollar Complete Variety Set, Circulation Strikes and Proof (PCGS Registry):
https://www.PCGS.com/SetRegistry/dollars/eisenhower-dollars-specialty-sets/eisenhower-dollars-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-proof-1971-1978/publishedset/119137
Darth Morgan - "The Other Ike Dollars" Showcase: https://www.PCGS.com/setregistry/showcase/3354
The Eisenhower Dollar Meeting Room: https://www.facebook.com/groups/933585237044733
@keets - I am in complete agreement with you, as far as the last two decades are concerned. My first digital camera (I forget the manufacturer) had a whopping 0.97 megapixels and used 3" floppy discs on which you could only get 12 photos each. I advanced in coin photography (and other types of photography) over the ensuing years to much higher resolution photos. Mark Goodman's book on Numismatic Photography was of great help to me along with advice from other coin photographers on these forums, both professional and amateur. This is a great topic, sir. Thank you for posting it! Coin photography is a blast!
My OmniCoin Collection
My BankNoteBank Collection
Tom, formerly in Albuquerque, NM.
It is pretty amazing that this piece is just 13mm, the size of a gold dollar.
I probably wouldn't collect these if not for digital photography!
The message boards /chat rooms have certainly had a big impact on the hobby and those who play in it.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
eBay, Paypal, Internet, Digital Imaging, Web Hosting of Dealer Websites, Instagram, Coin Forums
This still ties into photography, but I think social media creeping into coin collecting has been significant, especially Instagram over the last few years. That platform showed there are people that like to look at attractive coins, as well as show that there are a number of younger collectors that don't attend the usual venues like shows or coin clubs.
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
A great photo of a coin is compulsory today, who would buy a coin without studying first a good picture of it? I am an avid coin photographer, such a joy to take picture of the coins I collect.
Coinsof1984@martinb6830 on twitter
It does become work after taking tens of thousands of coin photos .....
I’m surprised no one has said reverse proofs, colorized coins or privy marks!
I was talking to Robert Riemer earlier (ebay: zypies) who some may remember had large ads a couple decades ago selling Morgan dollars and gsas. He has upped his game with improved professional imaging in the last few months. https://www.ebay.com/sch/zypies/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=
meh
I've found the USB microscopes to be very handy at variety attribution. But, in general, I agree with your statement.
And then there is those like me that have most of a set completed in MS grades and then look at the difference in Value of selling the set with Date and MM OR selling the set with the "Varieties" included. Go look at the top of Cents, 1909 - 1958, Wheat Reverse, for values in MS65 sold as a set or one with the varieties included. True the varieties will run you a substantial portion of the difference, but actually if you are careful, not that close! Even PCGS recognizes the difference in value.
Although, I am not adding varieties to sell the set, that will be up to my son after he inherits it, but he will get the best set I can afford to give him and he is a collector also!
Bruce
Prolific internet sales, it has brought true rarity into perspective
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
A stat I heard on you tube video/podcast (from Coin World I think).
Their analytics told a story of 250k unique visits and the largest group were 30 to 40 years old... per month
Millions of coins change hands every month from Ebay alone.
Information so readily available it has leveled the playing field for just about any collector with any budget.
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Discussion forums.
What!....Naaawwwww.....
.....ROFL