A 1909- VDB ebay counterfeit (Not an S-VDB)

MarkW63

Wow! I'm going to call this one a Cast Counterfeit.
Full luster!
No Wear!
Grainy texture of a likely Cast Counterfeit!
But!!!
Look at the V.D.B the period location after the D would be a San Fransisco mint location?
The center bar of the B is wrong?
At $428.00 and not being a coin expert I'm calling this FAKE!
Posted only for discussion and for the experts to make the official call!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-VDB-Lincoln-Wheat-Cent-Looks-Prooflike-PL-Rims-are-Somewhat-Square/294068811510?_trkparms=aid=1110006&algo=HOMESPLICE.SIM&ao=1&asc=231647&meid=473d279b138240c68830bf718e9df656&pid=101195&rk=1&rkt=12&mehot=pf&sd=303940412381&itm=294068811510&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&algv=SimplAMLv9PairwiseUnbiasedWeb&_trksid=p2047675.c101195.m1851

FredF

Not judging whether or not it's genuine (it's not my series or my area of expertise), if this were a 65 RB it's not even a $100 coin. Why invest in counterfeiting it?

MsMorrisine

1. I've seen counterfeited common date wheats
2. there are counterfeit silver eagles worth less than a $100
3. the better they are at handling them, the higher above 65 they will be

MarkW63

@FredF said:
Not judging whether or not it's genuine (it's not my series or my area of expertise), if this were a 65 RB it's not even a $100 coin. Why invest in counterfeiting it?

Well, that's my thinking as well, but at the price he wants its pretty valuable and not being a S-VDB would make it easier to pass off without getting much attention? I just found the listing by accident, I just saw the picture come up items of interest and it just didn't look right so I took a deeper look at.

Connecticoin

Whoever bought this probably thinks it is a matte proof.

WAYNEAS

So if I make an offer, how fast do you think it would take the seller to accept it?
If it cost a $1.00 to buy it from our Chinese dealer, any price over that is a profit.
Seller does not accept returns and is charging approximately $5.00 shipping. Profit is profit.
Wayne

Off_Cent_er

The coin is not a counterfeit. It is real. Maybe cleaned but it is real. It is not a matte proof just a early die state business strike. Early Lincoln dies were sand blasted and the early die state examples will exhibit a grainy surface. Yes, not just matte proofs but also business strikes can exhibit grainy surfaces. This is my 1912 Matte Proof. Note the surfaces, especially on the obverse. This is why Matte proofs vs early die state business strikes can be challenging for most to tell apart.

Off_Cent_er

Here is my avatar coin. This is a 1916 business strike. These pictures show the surfaces more than the color. Grainy surfaces, yet is indeed a business strike. It now resides in an NGC MS64 holder.

MarkW63

@Off_Cent_er said:
Here is my avatar coin. This is a 1916 business strike. These pictures show the surfaces more than the color. Grainy surfaces, yet is indeed a business strike. It now resides in an NGC MS64 holder.

What about the incorrect location of period (dot) after the V in the VDB? Its in the correct location for a San Francisco Mint.

Off_Cent_er

@MarkW63 said:

@Off_Cent_er said:
Here is my avatar coin. This is a 1916 business strike. These pictures show the surfaces more than the color. Grainy surfaces, yet is indeed a business strike. It now resides in an NGC MS64 holder.

What about the incorrect location of period (dot) after the V in the VDB? Its in the correct location for a San Francisco Mint.

The pics are crap. I cant tell enough about the initials. To me the coin is real. It isnt a matte proof like the bidding suggests. It is probably being sold with that in mind. Now, could it be altered? Sure. Im sure it has been cleaned though.

MarkW63

@Off_Cent_er said:
Here is my avatar coin. This is a 1916 business strike. These pictures show the surfaces more than the color. Grainy surfaces, yet is indeed a business strike. It now resides in an NGC MS64 holder.

Okay, see if you can follow my added lines that I don't think looks right as compared to the PCGS picture of an 09S-VDB.
(1) The lower chin doesn't look right (to me), its to long doesn't have the correct beard rolls.
(2) Some folds next to the mouth.
(3) lines around the inner ear.
(4) The lower corner of the eye is different too, by a lot.
I've seen that fake looking chin on a counterfeit 1914-D

Ebay listed coin image,

vs
The PCGS image.

Off_Cent_er

This is what it comes down to:
1. grainy texture on an early Lincoln cent doesn't mean fake.
2. The 1909 listed is not fake.
3. The 1909 listed was intended to look like a matte proof 1909 VDB, albiet through cleaning and the angle the pictures were taken, hence I think some "ignorant" deception is at play based on the "somewhat square rims" in the title. That means this seller knows Matte Proofs have square rims. Worm meet hook.
4. Are the VDB initials altered? I dont know.
5. I think you are looking too hard into a coin that probably will never sell for that price. And if it does sell at that price...
6. Then a sucker is born every minute.

Off_Cent_er

Quick lesson when it comes to the VDB initials. This is one of my many 1909 cents. Where was it minted?

MarkW63

@Off_Cent_er said:
Quick lesson when it comes to the VDB initials. This is one of my many 1909 cents. Where was it minted?

Okay, I'm going to say I really don't know because I can't clearly see the period following the D in the VDB.
So, I'll make a guess and say its the San Francisco mint and I say that because the open loop in the top of the B looks a little smaller (tighter) than the one on a Philly mint.

MarkW63

@Off_Cent_er said:
This is what it comes down to:
1. grainy texture on an early Lincoln cent doesn't mean fake.
2. The 1909 listed is not fake.
3. The 1909 listed was intended to look like a matte proof 1909 VDB, albiet through cleaning and the angle the pictures were taken, hence I think some "ignorant" deception is at play based on the "somewhat square rims" in the title. That means this seller knows Matte Proofs have square rims. Worm meet hook.
4. Are the VDB initials altered? I dont know.
5. I think you are looking too hard into a coin that probably will never sell for that price. And if it does sell at that price...
6. Then a sucker is born every minute.

How about that long flat bottom beneath the chin with missing beard rolls?
And that missing indent at the corner of Lincoln's eye?

PCGS image for comparison.