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Help please

Had this up but now it's gone....must have touched a nerve, eh?

I'm educating myself about CAC.

For those that'll take the time to read this and constructively respond:

I'm new to the board but a very seasoned collector. I and my associates fully support TPG. Over the last three decades my associates and I have spent just over $300K on TPG. Although there have been times we're not happy about a grading result (just as every collector has experienced) none of us regret a cent we spent with them. Personally just the fabulous quality holders and serial number tracking they provide along with their fantastic databases are worthy of the fees they charge. Their grade opinion (sans gradeflation) is a bonus and, for the most part, pretty darn good (within any given grading standard period in time)!

Furthermore I expect most will cry "CAC bashing" here but sadly that's the cry of the insecure. Those afraid something they think they possess or profit from will be threatened. In fact, although I hope not, I expect to get banned for calling a spade a spade. Never the less I'm posing intelligent, fact-based, reasonable questions and hoping that someone more aware and educated than I apparently am can enlighten me as to what it is I'm missing. PM always welcome!

I see a lot of support for CAC and that most charge and many will pay more for a holder with a sticker on it. Of course dealers and TPG support CAC for plainly obviou$ reasons. I'm hoping to gain intelligent reasoning from fellow collectors, not biased dealers; from the passengers in the bus, not the driver. I'm a huge proponent of self-education and knowledge over purchasing my opinion or external validation for the sake of acceptance so I'm attempting to find the tangible value in CAC as, near as I can tell, it's absolutely nothing more than a purchased, subjective and (by nature of subjectivity) inconsistent opinion. I'm trying to determine if it's manufactured value is based in anything other than exploiting fragile ego's and/or financial greed. There are some things I read that, considering the support of the service by supposed "collectors", confuse me greatly and I'm "hoping" for some intelligent, reasonable explanation from fellow collectors about the following points:

The following are copied directly from CAC's site:

Here’s where I’m stumped. According to CAC a CAC sticker means the coin is (in one person's opinion, in one moment in time) at the A or B level (of A, B or C) of the spectrum of a given grade range (let's remember TPG grade is constantly changing). So, setting aside the RIDICULOUS thought that anyone (emphasis on “one”) could consistently and reliably slice the difference between 65+ and 66 into three sectors (this means being able to accurately and consistently discern a .166 or 1/6th of a grade point difference) on tens of thousands of coins over long periods of time:

1) What is the “standard for today’s selective buyer”? How is it determined? Is there an ANA “today’s selective buyer” standard? Is today's selective buyer different than yesterdays? What about tomorrows? Isn't this nothing more than a unilateral, self-determined and constantly variable, non-committal subjective standard?

2) “It simply means that there are other coins with CAC stickers that are of higher quality for the grade. CAC will eventually reject tens of thousands of accurately graded coins.” Then there is “Occasionally a coin that has previously been rejected for CAC verification is reconsidered by CAC and stickered”. These two statements equal “we reserve the right to function in a consistently inconsistent standard”.

3) What is their point? How can any consumer in their right mind consider this a positive thing? This is old school and there's a word to describe it! What better way in the world to promote your "service only, manufacture/create nothing" business than to purchase your own service? Furthermore in examples like this (where the proprietor is servicing a tangible asset they're paid to service) they're not "purchasing", they're "investing" while driving up demand for their service. They "invested" $600M in an asset they were paid to service....and they still have their $600M asset! Furthermore if they invest "X"% over retail in the items they invested in they've driven the market up "X"% or a good fraction thereof while making their service "appear" to be the reason for the price increase. Now, get dealer networks to play along and wholla...it's a well engineered, no risk, no capitol, no skin in the game massive money machine that the end user funds and ultimately gets bit by. Now, I'm not saying that's what CAC did or is doing. But then there's the 'ol saying "if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...well, you know.

How about these:

So, they catalog all the coins that come across the counter. Yet they don't reveal the coins that didn't qualify (in a given moment, on a given day, in the subjective opinion of one person, to be in the top 2/3 of half a grade point) because they're protecting collectors? Really? Is there any thought by other collectors that maybe, just maybe, this is a way to get the same coin coming back over and over every time it changes hands? Another way to make a finite market infinite. Furthermore, beyond the simple arrogance of doing so, isn't publishing "CAC does not want to compromise the value of such a coin by disclosing a negative review by CAC" a blatantly passive aggressive method of telling collectors a coin holder without a sticker on it (let's remember....it could still get a sticker upon the second or third or tenth or hundredth payment since this is all based on the subjective opinion of a human that has no risk) is inferior? And yes, for those looking to justify this with "well _______ does this too" (which is childish crap anyway) I realize TPG does the same thing. However let's remember that TPG supplies an enormous amount of other tangible assets for the fees they charge! So, even if you don't get the grade you want you get something tangible and valuable for your expenditure.

Lastly, they publish What is that? Is that not the same as "we provide no guarantees", and the same as "we're backed by nothing other than our words"?

All this stated....I get that people can simply "want" and, really, there's no better thing to spend discretionary income on than "want". But as I educate myself about this facet of numismatics and genuine "collecting" I struggle with understanding, or, maybe, just facing ad accepting what the "want" is.

I see posts all the time about "do you think this (already certified and reaping the tangible benefits of TPG) coin will bean" and every single time I ask myself "why do you care". And....I mean that as a genuine question as a fellow passion based caring collector. I ponder; "if it does will you like the coin more"? "If it doesn't will you like the coin less"? And, if the answer to either one of these is yes then it's rooted in one or all of only three toxic things, a disinterest in or too lazy to educate one's self, a very fragile ego or selfish financial greed. None of which are good for the long term well-being of collectors or our hobby. If you answered no to both then you wouldn't care less about a sticker, especially not one that represents one person's opinion (in a single given moment on a single given day) about .166 or 1/6th of a grade point....let alone purchase it or try charge fellow collectors for it.

There's even a prominent dealer that has the nerve to publish (essentially) that any collector or dealer that says they don't submit coins to CAC should be avoided! From what tangible information I can gather any person that doesn't send coins to CAC is likely educated, confident, doesn't need external validation and values integrity far above the acquisition of paper dollars. Therefore they would only be avoided by people afraid of intelligent, confident, hard to BS (and therefore much harder to acquire paper dollars from through installation of fear) integrity-based individuals. Oddly (not really) this same dealer touts CAC as being great because they catch "doctored" coins. No, they don't. They only (just as TPG services do) sometimes catch poorly/unprofessionally doctored coins. This has been proven by submitting certified doctored , oops..."conserved" coins and receiving a sticker every time.

I gotta be missing something somewhere! Or am I?


  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2021 9:48PM

    Did you read the Forum Rules?
    When you signed up to use this forum, you agreed to follow them.
    Rule 4:

    1. Posts promoting or bashing other grading companies or services are not allowed.


  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    if your future posts, provided you have any, are even half as dedicated as this one, i look forward to your numismatically-related posts. :)

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • thefinnthefinn Posts: 2,645 ✭✭✭✭✭

    CAC does not look at + grades. So if something says "65+", they will look at the 65 and probably give it a green bean. Collectors might interpret that as they believe the coin is 65+, but that isn't their intent.
    Yes, it works out for those who do not understand grading and feel like this is a security blanket, so they will pay a premium. I have coins that did not CAC, but have been offered the price of the next grade level for them because the knowledgeable know what something is.

  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,218 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Welcome to the forum, and goodbye. ;):D

    If you posted this once and the moderators took it down, and you just went and posted it again, that is quite a provocation.

    Perhaps there is some fodder for good discussions in there, but not all discussions are appropriate (or allowed) here.

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 11,707 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2021 2:11AM
  • fathomfathom Posts: 1,434 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It is what it is.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 30,290 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It was nice knowing you. I hope you like the color red because your avatar is about to go all red.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 30,290 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you TRULY want to get educated, try searching and READING the old CAC threads that are already on this forum. You have offered nothing new and all of this has been discussed before.

  • AlexinPAAlexinPA Posts: 1,458 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You've posted this on about every coin forum known to mankind. How should we look upon your grievance?

  • matt_dacmatt_dac Posts: 954 ✭✭✭✭✭

    His "fragile ego" is about to be banned. Good riddance.

  • astroratastrorat Posts: 9,221 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Enjoy your new avatar.

    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
  • yspsalesyspsales Posts: 2,025 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2021 6:11AM

    Talent usually leads an industry.
    Industry leaders attract the money.
    Talent, money, and industry leaders typically make the market.

    Pro or con, the TPG and the subset of CAC, Rick Snow, etc... make it turn key for many investors or collectors.

    If they were not here, talented and smart people would create TPG's and CAC to fill the demand.

    BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out

  • edwardjulioedwardjulio Posts: 985 ✭✭✭✭✭

    "Oddly (not really) this same dealer touts CAC as being great because they catch "doctored" coins. No, they don't. They only (just as TPG services do) sometimes catch poorly/unprofessionally doctored coins. This has been proven by submitting certified doctored , oops..."conserved" coins and receiving a sticker every time."

    Show us your proof.

    End Systemic Elitism

  • ms71ms71 Posts: 1,432 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ****POOF!**** :D

    Successful BST transactions: EagleEye, Christos, Proofmorgan,
    Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins

    Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't an optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.

    My mind reader refuses to charge me....
  • bearcavebearcave Posts: 3,993 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ms71 said:
    ****POOF!**** :D


  • ReadyFireAimReadyFireAim Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PantelNumis said:
    I'm trying to determine if it's manufactured value is based in anything other than exploiting fragile ego's and/or financial greed.

    I've noticed a lot of collectors heading over to the dark side.
    You might want to check it out when you feel CAC-fatigue.

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PantelNumis said:
    I gotta be missing something somewhere! Or am I?

    You are free to ignore CAC's opinion if you don't think they provide you with any benefit. You have to decide that for yourself. OTOH, many other people find CAC's opinion useful and there's not much you can do about that.

  • ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,168 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2021 6:53AM

    I don't think this thread is as bad as some seem to think. A seasoned collector has a concern about the health of the hobby.
    Just a few bullet points:

    • Take a look at John Albanese' history. He is well qualified to be an "evaluator of evaluations"
    • "CAC coins sell for more" I don't like this statement. It should really be "quality coins sell for more, CAC coins fall into that group"
    • Everyone makes mistakes now and then, what makes a company or person is how they respond to those mistakes
    • Some buyers will only buy CAC coins, whether by preference or by not trusting their own evaluation as much as JA
    • If CAC published the list of coins that did not pass, that could have a negative impact of suppressing the market for those coins. Think about it- If you looked up a coin and it didn't pass would you want to buy it full price?
    • Conserved coins and doctored coins are not the same thing

    I tend to not really care if a coin has CAC or not when buying, but depending on the coin, if I am going to sell I would rather my coins have CAC approval than not. I should add that I tend to buy coins that are under $1k. Maybe my buying opinion would change if I was buying 5 figure coins.

    Collector, occasional seller

  • panexpoguypanexpoguy Posts: 1,239 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It has to be tough to have fancied yourself an educated and skilled coin grader only to later find yourself with an entire collection of coins that are weak for the grade.

  • calgolddivercalgolddiver Posts: 1,303 ✭✭✭✭✭

    IBTL !

    Top 25 Type Set 1792 to present

    Top 10 Cal Fractional Type Set

    successful BST with Ankurj, BigAl, Bullsitter, CommemKing, DCW(7), Elmerfusterpuck, Joelewis, Mach1ne, Minuteman810430, Modcrewman, Nankraut, Nederveit2, Philographer(5), Realgator, Silverpop, SurfinxHI, TomB and Yorkshireman(3)

  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,710 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2021 7:56AM

    <<Had this up but now it's gone....must have touched a nerve, eh?>>

    No, actually threads are required to be enlightening or entertaining. Yours was neither. Same with this one. Nice knowing you.

    "There are no called strikes in coin collecting."--Henry David Thoreau RYK
  • coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 10,384 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2021 8:15AM

    never got past the first sentence.

    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
  • LazybonesLazybones Posts: 1,314 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2021 8:25AM

    USAF (Ret) 1974 - 1994 - The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. Remembering RickO, a brother in arms.

  • ThreeCentSilverFLThreeCentSilverFL Posts: 1,655 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Didn't I read this post yesterday??

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 31,832 ✭✭✭✭✭

    don't think of it as 3 separate grades inside 1 point. think of it as C coins are butt ugly yet have the right number assigned.

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
This discussion has been closed.