@craig44 said:
i don't think Jordan should be singled out for getting the star treatment when all the other super stars were getting the same.
It's not like they kept stats on how many uncalled fouls and traveling each player got, but I 100% reject the notion that other stars before Jordan got "the same" treatment, or anything even close to it. I literally laughed out loud every time I watched the Bulls play, because it was just so ridiculous. Every time Jordan picked up his dribble I would count how many steps he took before he finally shot the ball (average was 3, max was 5). I was a huge NBA fan for a long time before that, but Jordan ended that. Watching the NBA felt more like watching pro wrestling or boxing; I felt foolish rooting for what had obviously become a scripted show. Haven't watched since, but from what I hear the sport never recovered.
you reject the notion that wilt got the same treatment? does it even remotely seem realistic that playing the center position, one could play the amount of games and huge amount of minutes per game as wilt and NEVER foul out? that is ludicrous. of course he got a very similar treatment as Jordan.
@1948_Swell_Robinson said:
One of the things I was getting at with Wilt was that he had the strength of Shaq, the big man agility of Olajuwon, and the leaping ability of Jordan....and he was fast.
Chamberlain was simply legendary, and that includes at the time he was playing.
During that era when Ali was the champ, all sorts of notions were being floated around, about what non-boxer could possibly beat Ali in the ring. All the various names which came up were totally laughable...except for Chamberlain.
Just to make it clear, without extensive training over an extended period of time, say for perhaps a couple years, Wilt was not going to beat Ali in the ring. But if Wilt would have put in the necessary time and effort, in my opinion he likely beats Ali and quite easily for a number of reasons.
However the match never came to fruition because i guess that Chamberlain at some point realized all that, and had no intentions of putting in the amount of tough training necessary to become a championship boxer.
Probably not going to beat him in a boxing match without training, but if I had to pick one of them to come with me in an alley fight, I would take Chamberlain over Ali.
Wilt used to train with Arnold and Arnold talks of how strong Chamberlain was, and how when they were on the set of Conan(the Barbarian not the talk show guy), how Wilt picked Arnold up like it was nothing.
@1948_Swell_Robinson said:
One of the things I was getting at with Wilt was that he had the strength of Shaq, the big man agility of Olajuwon, and the leaping ability of Jordan....and he was fast.
Chamberlain was simply legendary, and that includes at the time he was playing.
During that era when Ali was the champ, all sorts of notions were being floated around, about what non-boxer could possibly beat Ali in the ring. All the various names which came up were totally laughable...except for Chamberlain.
Just to make it clear, without extensive training over an extended period of time, say for perhaps a couple years, Wilt was not going to beat Ali in the ring. But if Wilt would have put in the necessary time and effort, in my opinion he likely beats Ali and quite easily for a number of reasons.
However the match never came to fruition because i guess that Chamberlain at some point realized all that, and had no intentions of putting in the amount of tough training necessary to become a championship boxer.
Probably not going to beat him in a boxing match without training, but if I had to pick one of them to come with me in an alley fight, I would take Chamberlain over Ali.
Wilt used to train with Arnold and Arnold talks of how strong Chamberlain was, and how when they were on the set of Conan(the Barbarian not the talk show guy), how Wilt picked Arnold up like it was nothing.
I once took a ten week co-ed martial arts training class. One of the first things the instructor said to the class, specifically mentioning the women in the class, is that paraphrase, regardless of how good you get with the martial arts, you're still likely not going to beat any bigger stronger male even if that male is not skilled in the martial arts.
Of course in certain sports where weight is a factor, there are weight divisions to account for that. In an Ali-Chamberlain fight with a finely tuned boxer in Chamberlain, it might even be unfair to Ali. Ali was a heavyweight, and Chamberlain really should have been in some heavier weight classification considering his size and physical capabilities which you mentioned.
Ali was certainly one of the most intelligent boxers of all time, and he was so great, that perhaps with a rope-a-dope type tactic or something else, he may have found a way to beat Chamberlain in the ring. It would have been a most interesting fight on a worldwide level. I'd say probably Wilt would have been the favorite to win it, possibly a heavy favorite.
But again, if Wilt just lackadaisically trains for a few months and that's it, then Ali beats him easily.
@craig44 said:
i don't think Jordan should be singled out for getting the star treatment when all the other super stars were getting the same.
It's not like they kept stats on how many uncalled fouls and traveling each player got, but I 100% reject the notion that other stars before Jordan got "the same" treatment, or anything even close to it. I literally laughed out loud every time I watched the Bulls play, because it was just so ridiculous. Every time Jordan picked up his dribble I would count how many steps he took before he finally shot the ball (average was 3, max was 5). I was a huge NBA fan for a long time before that, but Jordan ended that. Watching the NBA felt more like watching pro wrestling or boxing; I felt foolish rooting for what had obviously become a scripted show. Haven't watched since, but from what I hear the sport never recovered.
you reject the notion that wilt got the same treatment? does it even remotely seem realistic that playing the center position, one could play the amount of games and huge amount of minutes per game as wilt and NEVER foul out? that is ludicrous. of course he got a very similar treatment as Jordan.
That is a very interesting point. However Wilt was so gifted, he didn't need to foul to block a shot.
Actually an opposing strategy was to foul Wilt, depending on the game situation. It was painful to watch Wilt trying to make free throws and in fact he would sometimes attempt them underhanded.
Jordan finished with the highest scoring average ever (Wilt No. 2) and won six titles on six chances, with six Finals MVP's.
Jordan only played 6 seasons? Weird. I thought he played more which would mean he had more than 6 chances at a title. I must be misremembering the Bulls flopping in 95 against Orlando.
Jordan finished with the highest scoring average ever (Wilt No. 2) and won six titles on six chances, with six Finals MVP's.
Jordan only played 6 seasons? Weird. I thought he played more which would mean he had more than 6 chances at a title. I must be misremembering the Bulls flopping in 95 against Orlando.
It doesn't say he only played six seasons, it says he had six chances, which he did. The 91 Finals was his first chance, the 92 Finals was his second chance, the 93 Finals was his third chance, the 96 Finals was his fourth chance, the 97 Finals was his fifth chance, and the 98 Finals was his sixth chance. He didn't even play a full season in 95. I understand people don't like Jordan, I get it.
Like I said, everyone has their own opinion as to who the GOAT really is. I like Jordan as GOAT, that's just my opinion. Some people take Wilt, some take Kareem, some take Bird or Magic. If I want to win a championship, I'm taking Jordan.
Jordan finished with the highest scoring average ever (Wilt No. 2) and won six titles on six chances, with six Finals MVP's.
Jordan only played 6 seasons? Weird. I thought he played more which would mean he had more than 6 chances at a title. I must be misremembering the Bulls flopping in 95 against Orlando.
It doesn't say he only played six seasons, it says he had six chances, which he did. The 91 Finals was his first chance, the 92 Finals was his second chance, the 93 Finals was his third chance, the 96 Finals was his fourth chance, the 97 Finals was his fifth chance, and the 98 Finals was his sixth chance. He didn't even play a full season in 95. I understand people don't like Jordan, I get it.
Doesn't he have a chance to win a Finals every year he plays? I have to be consistent, and I said with Tom Brady(after his four championships) that getting to a Super Bowl and losing is better than Joe Montana losing his chance for more with a second round playoff bounce.
Jordan has been my pick as best ever due to his ability to play defense in addition to his offense, but I posed this question on Wilt because I'm not so certain on Jordan being such the slam dunk GOAT that everyone says. The more I think about it, if they were all lined up in the gym standing shoulder to shoulder, and I'm the coach, I'm probably going with Chamberlain at this point.
I don't think the NBA fandom is fully comprehending Chamberlain's physical attributes. It isn't just being tall.
@craig44 said:
i don't think Jordan should be singled out for getting the star treatment when all the other super stars were getting the same.
It's not like they kept stats on how many uncalled fouls and traveling each player got, but I 100% reject the notion that other stars before Jordan got "the same" treatment, or anything even close to it. I literally laughed out loud every time I watched the Bulls play, because it was just so ridiculous. Every time Jordan picked up his dribble I would count how many steps he took before he finally shot the ball (average was 3, max was 5). I was a huge NBA fan for a long time before that, but Jordan ended that. Watching the NBA felt more like watching pro wrestling or boxing; I felt foolish rooting for what had obviously become a scripted show. Haven't watched since, but from what I hear the sport never recovered.
you reject the notion that wilt got the same treatment? does it even remotely seem realistic that playing the center position, one could play the amount of games and huge amount of minutes per game as wilt and NEVER foul out? that is ludicrous. of course he got a very similar treatment as Jordan.
That is a very interesting point. However Wilt was so gifted, he didn't need to foul to block a shot.
Actually an opposing strategy was to foul Wilt, depending on the game situation. It was painful to watch Wilt trying to make free throws and in fact he would sometimes attempt them underhanded.
Absolutely priceless, here is the video of Howard Cosell with Ali and Chamberlain talking about their fight. Ali is in true Ali form, even saying he is going to whoop Cosell too, lol. They do some measurements.
One thing for certain, Wilt could not match Ali's words. Ali was the star entertainer of the promotion for sure.
Here is Jim Brown talking about the fight and that he was going to manage Wilt and that in the end it was Ali's manager who backed out of the fight after second thoughts. Brown said they then offered for Brown to fight Ali but Brown said no way he knows better and had no chance.
Jordan finished with the highest scoring average ever (Wilt No. 2) and won six titles on six chances, with six Finals MVP's.
Jordan only played 6 seasons? Weird. I thought he played more which would mean he had more than 6 chances at a title. I must be misremembering the Bulls flopping in 95 against Orlando.
It doesn't say he only played six seasons, it says he had six chances, which he did. The 91 Finals was his first chance, the 92 Finals was his second chance, the 93 Finals was his third chance, the 96 Finals was his fourth chance, the 97 Finals was his fifth chance, and the 98 Finals was his sixth chance. He didn't even play a full season in 95. I understand people don't like Jordan, I get it.
Doesn't he have a chance to win a Finals every year he plays? I have to be consistent, and I said with Tom Brady(after his four championships) that getting to a Super Bowl and losing is better than Joe Montana losing his chance for more with a second round playoff bounce.
Jordan has been my pick as best ever due to his ability to play defense in addition to his offense, but I posed this question on Wilt because I'm not so certain on Jordan being such the slam dunk GOAT that everyone says. The more I think about it, if they were all lined up in the gym standing shoulder to shoulder, and I'm the coach, I'm probably going with Chamberlain at this point.
I don't think the NBA fandom is fully comprehending Chamberlain's physical attributes. It isn't just being tall.
this is the most intellectually consistent take. every player absolutely has a chance to win a championship in every season he plays. jordan had 15 chances to win a championship and actually won 6. brady has had 19 chances to win a championship and won 7 times. Montana had 13 chances to win and won 4 times. we cant just take finals appearances as a players only chance.
it is absolutely better to make it to the championship round/game and loose than to loose in earlier rounds or not make the playoffs at all.
that video with Ali and Chamberlain really put his size into perspective. with some training, Wilt probably would have beaten ali, just due to sheer size, strength. there is a reason there are weight classes.
i think I can remember years ago a boxing match between shaq and oscar de la hoya. oscar couldn't really hurt him due to the size difference. i would imagine that if shaq had 6 months to really train with a boxing guy that he could have beaten de la hoya.
Jordan finished with the highest scoring average ever (Wilt No. 2) and won six titles on six chances, with six Finals MVP's.
Jordan only played 6 seasons? Weird. I thought he played more which would mean he had more than 6 chances at a title. I must be misremembering the Bulls flopping in 95 against Orlando.
It doesn't say he only played six seasons, it says he had six chances, which he did. The 91 Finals was his first chance, the 92 Finals was his second chance, the 93 Finals was his third chance, the 96 Finals was his fourth chance, the 97 Finals was his fifth chance, and the 98 Finals was his sixth chance. He didn't even play a full season in 95. I understand people don't like Jordan, I get it.
Doesn't he have a chance to win a Finals every year he plays? I have to be consistent, and I said with Tom Brady(after his four championships) that getting to a Super Bowl and losing is better than Joe Montana losing his chance for more with a second round playoff bounce.
Jordan has been my pick as best ever due to his ability to play defense in addition to his offense, but I posed this question on Wilt because I'm not so certain on Jordan being such the slam dunk GOAT that everyone says. The more I think about it, if they were all lined up in the gym standing shoulder to shoulder, and I'm the coach, I'm probably going with Chamberlain at this point.
I don't think the NBA fandom is fully comprehending Chamberlain's physical attributes. It isn't just being tall.
this is the most intellectually consistent take. every player absolutely has a chance to win a championship in every season he plays. jordan had 15 chances to win a championship and actually won 6. brady has had 19 chances to win a championship and won 7 times. Montana had 13 chances to win and won 4 times. we cant just take finals appearances as a players only chance.
it is absolutely better to make it to the championship round/game and loose than to loose in earlier rounds or not make the playoffs at all.
I would take Jordan because of what he became. He was a tyrant about winning. He would die to win. He pushed his teammates harder than anyone and himself. He hated to lose worse than anyone I've ever seen, he had that of fire burning inside of him. There was a photo of him in a book I read about him, that showed him and the janitor at the Bulls practice facility, the janitor was sweeping and Jordan was shooting free throws, and it said something like, "while everyone else is sleeping, Jordan is improving." That was how bad he wanted to win and be the best. He had a fire burning inside of him like I've never seen before to win and be the best. Like I said before, if he had stuck around for full seasons in 94 and 95, I believe the Bulls would have won 8 straight titles. That's just my opinion, no one else has to agree. If you go back and watch him play in the food poisoning game, he looked like he was about to keel over, his face, his body language, he looked miserable and you could tell he was really sick, but he wanted to win so bad that he went out there and dropped 38 on the Jazz and the Bulls won. At the end of the game, Pippen had to help him. He wanted to win that bad, he had that kind of fire burning inside. Plus, he is still the all time leader in points average and he was a beast on defense. I'm taking Jordan as GOAT, that's just my opinion.
@doubledragon said:
I would take Jordan because of what he became. He was a tyrant about winning. He would die to win. He pushed his teammates harder than anyone and himself. He hated to lose worse than anyone I've ever seen, he had that of fire burning inside of him. There was a photo of him in a book I read about him, that showed him and the janitor at the Bulls practice facility, the janitor was sweeping and Jordan was shooting free throws, and it said something like, "while everyone else is sleeping, Jordan is improving." That was how bad he wanted to win and be the best. He had a fire burning inside of him like I've never seen before to win and be the best. Like I said before, if he had stuck around for full seasons in 94 and 95, I believe the Bulls would have won 8 straight titles. That's just my opinion, no one else has to agree. If you go back and watch him play in the food poisoning game, he looked like he was about to keel over, his face, his body language, he looked miserable and you could tell he was really sick, but he wanted to win so bad that he went out there and dropped 38 on the Jazz and the Bulls won. At the end of the game, Pippen had to help him. He wanted to win that bad, he had that kind of fire burning inside. Plus, he is still the all time leader in points average and he was a beast on defense. I'm taking Jordan as GOAT, that's just my opinion.
I watched all those games as they happened, and the Bulls certainly had more titles in them had Jordan not retired, twice.
I don't discount the food poisoning game, but my brother was a Laker fan, so we always had debates....and he always brought up how the reports after the game, or the next day, would say that "Jordan was battling the flu." The reports happened enough where we got a chuckle out of it, enough that either Jordan was the sickliest human on the planet, or that they may have embellished a few 'colds' into the flu....because if you truly have the flu...you are on your arse.
I agree that Jordan is the GOAT basketball player. he was the greatest scorer the game has ever seen. he was also a lock down defender and he really could pass the ball when need be. He was also the most fluid/graceful basketball player I have ever seen.
I also agree that he had a very rare fire to win at all costs. I would disagree that his desire to win was singular in the sports world though. I would say I have seen the same characteristics in Larry Bird, Roger Clemens, Curt Schilling and Tom Brady. all 4 of those guys were INTENSE about winning. Larry was a well-known gym rat.
I remember the 92' Dream Team, reading stories about their practices. All of those guys, Jordan, Bird, Magic, guys who were just obsessed with winning, all in the same gym practicing. The practices would turn really serious and guys would start getting angry and stuff. 😂😂
@craig44 said:
I agree that Jordan is the GOAT basketball player. he was the greatest scorer the game has ever seen. he was also a lock down defender and he really could pass the ball when need be. He was also the most fluid/graceful basketball player I have ever seen.
I also agree that he had a very rare fire to win at all costs. I would disagree that his desire to win was singular in the sports world though. I would say I have seen the same characteristics in Larry Bird, Roger Clemens, Curt Schilling and Tom Brady. all 4 of those guys were INTENSE about winning. Larry was a well-known gym rat.
The defense of the Bulls teams in the 90's was their true ability, after Jordan's ability to take over a game, that made them the force that they were.
I see on social media how people create these all time teams with Lebron etc...and they say "this team would never lose."
The reality is that the next "all time team" someone poses is just as good and if they played each other 100 times, the record will be 52-48, and the next 100 it could easily reverse.
But, my point is, whenever I see Lebron on someone's team and they say, "there is no answer to him," I ALWAYS think of Dennis Rodman, because Rodman is the cure to that problem. Maybe in today's rules Rodman would not be the answer, but if Rodman were allowed to play defense vs Lebron like Rodman did when he played, then he would be inside Lebron's head so fast that it would be pure entertainment to watch. That is in addition to his ability to actually play defense too, not just the mental anguish Rodman would cause.
Jordan, Rodman, Pippen, and Harper...their defense is unmatched in history as a unit. Even better than the Bad Boys Pistons.
Harper does not get the credit for his defense. On those teams he played hard on defense, and he was a six foot six point guard for the Bulls. The second three peat Bulls are as good as any team in history. Probably the best because of their hungry defense in addition to having the great scorer.
you are 100% correct on the worm being the answer to the lebron problem. he would have taken up residence in his head by the end of the first quarter.
as far as people calling lebron the goat, I refuse to call anyone the greatest who passes up so many game-winning/tying shots. i have seen him many times and in big games pass up on buzzer shots. I want my goat to demand the ball in crunch time. in basketball, give me Jordan or Bird all day.
people forget what a killer Isaiah Thomas was as well. he was small, but the man demanded victories.
Didn't they have to put in a rule regarding Chamberlain and free throws? If my recollection of stories is correct, didn't Chamberlain do a running start and jump towards the basket on free throws? That is why free throw shooters have to be behind the line until the ball touches the rim.
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Wilt Chamberlain: Free throw plane
When Wilt Chamberlain was in high school, he had a unique way of shooting free-throws. He would stand at the top of the key, throw the ball up toward the basket, take two steps, jump toward the rim and jam the ball through the net. Doing this resulted in basketball rules to state that a player cannot cross the plane of the free-throw line when shooting a free-throw.
In 1956, during his freshman year in college, the NCAA banned dunking free throws, as a result of rumors that Chamberlain had been doing that in high school. Later, the NBA also banned dunking free throws.
Although Chamberlain had problems shooting free-throws throughout his career, the rule did not really improve his already dominant game.
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Jordan finished with the highest scoring average ever (Wilt No. 2) and won six titles on six chances, with six Finals MVP's.
Jordan only played 6 seasons? Weird. I thought he played more which would mean he had more than 6 chances at a title. I must be misremembering the Bulls flopping in 95 against Orlando.
It doesn't say he only played six seasons, it says he had six chances, which he did. The 91 Finals was his first chance, the 92 Finals was his second chance, the 93 Finals was his third chance, the 96 Finals was his fourth chance, the 97 Finals was his fifth chance, and the 98 Finals was his sixth chance. He didn't even play a full season in 95. I understand people don't like Jordan, I get it.
Yeah, the point was that he had a chance every year he played. So he had way more than 6 chances.
If you grew up or lived in certain areas, the liquor store was called the package store. I worked at one throughout high school. There was a manager of some sort, as I remember, who liked to talk sports and I would engage him in conversation. It was Shaq's rookie or second season. He pointed out some similarities between Shaq and Wilt, and focussed on the idea that if they were ever willing and/or able to really practice and learn to shoot a free throw .....and you know how the story goes.
Jordan finished with the highest scoring average ever (Wilt No. 2) and won six titles on six chances, with six Finals MVP's.
Jordan only played 6 seasons? Weird. I thought he played more which would mean he had more than 6 chances at a title. I must be misremembering the Bulls flopping in 95 against Orlando.
It doesn't say he only played six seasons, it says he had six chances, which he did. The 91 Finals was his first chance, the 92 Finals was his second chance, the 93 Finals was his third chance, the 96 Finals was his fourth chance, the 97 Finals was his fifth chance, and the 98 Finals was his sixth chance. He didn't even play a full season in 95. I understand people don't like Jordan, I get it.
Yeah, the point was that he had a chance every year he played. So he had way more than 6 chances.
He was human against the Pistons for years. The Pistons never gave him a chance to travel. They employed the Jordan Rules. The refs used to let Detroit play against him.
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Jordan finished with the highest scoring average ever (Wilt No. 2) and won six titles on six chances, with six Finals MVP's.
Jordan only played 6 seasons? Weird. I thought he played more which would mean he had more than 6 chances at a title. I must be misremembering the Bulls flopping in 95 against Orlando.
It doesn't say he only played six seasons, it says he had six chances, which he did. The 91 Finals was his first chance, the 92 Finals was his second chance, the 93 Finals was his third chance, the 96 Finals was his fourth chance, the 97 Finals was his fifth chance, and the 98 Finals was his sixth chance. He didn't even play a full season in 95. I understand people don't like Jordan, I get it.
Yeah, the point was that he had a chance every year he played. So he had way more than 6 chances.
He was human against the Pistons for years. The Pistons never gave him a chance to travel. They employed the Jordan Rules. The refs used to let Detroit play against him.
Jordan finished with the highest scoring average ever (Wilt No. 2) and won six titles on six chances, with six Finals MVP's.
Jordan only played 6 seasons? Weird. I thought he played more which would mean he had more than 6 chances at a title. I must be misremembering the Bulls flopping in 95 against Orlando.
It doesn't say he only played six seasons, it says he had six chances, which he did. The 91 Finals was his first chance, the 92 Finals was his second chance, the 93 Finals was his third chance, the 96 Finals was his fourth chance, the 97 Finals was his fifth chance, and the 98 Finals was his sixth chance. He didn't even play a full season in 95. I understand people don't like Jordan, I get it.
Yeah, the point was that he had a chance every year he played. So he had way more than 6 chances.
He was human against the Pistons for years. The Pistons never gave him a chance to travel. They employed the Jordan Rules. The refs used to let Detroit play against him.
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
werent the jordan rules more about roughing jordan up on drives to the basket? it has been a while, but it seems they were trying to keep him outside and not attacking the basket so on every drive, spider legs salley, Laimbeer and Rodman were all collapsing and putting the hammer on Jordan so he hit the floor every time.
@doubledragon said:
I will always believe Jordan to be the GOAT. Unguardable on offense, great on defense. I've never seen any athlete so obsessed with winning as Jordan was, just look at the food poisoning game, he wanted to win that bad. He used intimidation to make his teammates play better, and the run they had in the 90s was due to him. If he hadn't taken time off in 94' and 95', the Bulls would have win 8 straight championships. Even Magic Johnson and Larry Bird say Jordan is the GOAT. He was on another level. When it all comes down to it, you play to win, and Jordan played and pushed his teammates to win more than anyone I've ever seen.
Those are good points. Jordan is one of the few players that his scoring average actually improved in the playoffs. I know Jordan was clutch, but the fact that his scoring average improved in the playoffs is more impressive in the NBA is because in the playoffs teams actually played a full game of defense.
Please explain to me why it's impressive for an NBA player when he has success in the postseason against tougher defenses than it is for an MLB player when he faces tougher pitching and defenses during the postseason.
Why is it impressive for Jordan, but not impressive for Brett ?
Why does Jordan get your praise for his post season success but Brett does not ?
Jordan's postseason data is impressive.
Brett's postseason data is impressive.
Why do you praise the one and totally discount the other ?
If sports is about performance, than you are correct to praise Jordan.
If sports is about performance, then you are illogical to discount Brett.
@craig44 said:
werent the jordan rules more about roughing jordan up on drives to the basket? it has been a while, but it seems they were trying to keep him outside and not attacking the basket so on every drive, spider legs salley, Laimbeer and Rodman were all collapsing and putting the hammer on Jordan so he hit the floor every time.
at least that is how I remember it
Devised by Isiah Thomas in 1988, the Pistons' strategy was "to play him tough, to physically challenge him and to vary its defenses so as to try to throw him off balance. Sometimes the Pistons would overplay Jordan to keep the ball from him. Sometimes they would play him straight up, more often they would run a double-team at him as soon as he got the ball to force him to go left, which he was less successful in doing. Additionally, whoever Jordan was guarding on defense, Detroit would force that player to pass the basketball in order to make Jordan work extremely hard on both ends of the court, thus increasing his fatigue level and rendering him less effective.
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I'm not anti-Jordan or Wilt because they both were incredible.
But I love team basketball, so my greatest of all time would be Magic or Bird.
If you want the greatest individualist of all time in basketball, than it would be Jordan or Wilt.
If you wanted the greatest team player of all time, then it's Magic or Bird. I'm sure there are others in that discussion too.
That's why Gonzaga is so much fun to watch this year. They have five great players on the floor at all time.
They all share the ball. They play a team game the way the 80s Lakers and Celtics did.
@craig44 said:
werent the jordan rules more about roughing jordan up on drives to the basket? it has been a while, but it seems they were trying to keep him outside and not attacking the basket so on every drive, spider legs salley, Laimbeer and Rodman were all collapsing and putting the hammer on Jordan so he hit the floor every time.
at least that is how I remember it
Devised by Isiah Thomas in 1988, the Pistons' strategy was "to play him tough, to physically challenge him and to vary its defenses so as to try to throw him off balance. Sometimes the Pistons would overplay Jordan to keep the ball from him. Sometimes they would play him straight up, more often they would run a double-team at him as soon as he got the ball to force him to go left, which he was less successful in doing. Additionally, whoever Jordan was guarding on defense, Detroit would force that player to pass the basketball in order to make Jordan work extremely hard on both ends of the court, thus increasing his fatigue level and rendering him less effective.
thank you. it has been a few years. I thought it was more about beating him down than causing him to travel. I had forgotten about the tactics they employed on offense with the player jordan was guarding.
@doubledragon said:
I think Dennis Rodman said, "when Jordan went to the basket, the strategy was to put him on the bleeping ground."
Last photo reminds me of Chevy Chase in Fletch dreaming of playing for the lakers.
#LetsGoSwitzerlandThe Man Who Does Not Read Has No Advantage Over the Man Who Cannot Read. The biggest obstacle to progress is a habit of “buying what we want and begging for what we need.”You get the Freedom you fight for and get the Oppression you deserve.
@craig44 said:
i love that last image. that is intensity.
Me too.
As a Pistons fan those look like offensive fouls to me
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@doubledragon said:
I will always believe Jordan to be the GOAT. Unguardable on offense, great on defense. I've never seen any athlete so obsessed with winning as Jordan was, just look at the food poisoning game, he wanted to win that bad. He used intimidation to make his teammates play better, and the run they had in the 90s was due to him. If he hadn't taken time off in 94' and 95', the Bulls would have win 8 straight championships. Even Magic Johnson and Larry Bird say Jordan is the GOAT. He was on another level. When it all comes down to it, you play to win, and Jordan played and pushed his teammates to win more than anyone I've ever seen.
Those are good points. Jordan is one of the few players that his scoring average actually improved in the playoffs. I know Jordan was clutch, but the fact that his scoring average improved in the playoffs is more impressive in the NBA is because in the playoffs teams actually played a full game of defense.
Please explain to me why it's impressive for an NBA player when he has success in the postseason against tougher defenses than it is for an MLB player when he faces tougher pitching and defenses during the postseason.
Why is it impressive for Jordan, but not impressive for Brett ?
Why does Jordan get your praise for his post season success but Brett does not ?
Jordan's postseason data is impressive.
Brett's postseason data is impressive.
Why do you praise the one and totally discount the other ?
If sports is about performance, than you are correct to praise Jordan.
If sports is about performance, then you are illogical to discount Brett.
NBA teams have had a history of not really playing defense in the regular season. That is not the case in the playoffs.
NBA teams can focus on the star player and make it much more difficult for that player to beat them. If you watch that Pistons video above, you hear them say exactly that.
Baseball hitting is unique to any other sport where there routinely severe ups and downs. Baseball pitchers cannot 'double team' a hitter in the playoffs.
Two completely different animals.
To clarify, I am not saying Jordan had any special clutch ability in the playoffs over what he already showed in the regular season.
So you can bet your bottom dollar that NBA players could pad their stats more in the regular season, especially in the Western Conference in the 80's., where defense resembled all-star game 'defense'
@craig44 said:
i love that last image. that is intensity.
Me too.
As a Pistons fan those look like offensive fouls to me
m
I completely agree.
It's worth noting that the Pistons were hardly the first team to use physical fouls as a defensive tactic on layups and the like. They did it more but they were hardly alone.
Why is it when people talk about greatest team winners they never talk about Bill Russell, the only NBA player to have won more championships than he has fingers? Nobody can say they have done it better than he did.
I feel if the games of the late 50s and 60s had been recorded there would be zero debate, everyone would know who the greatest is. It's not Jordan. Jordan is top 5 but not top 3.
However, I will say the food poisoning game is the most incredible singular performance I've seen in any sport. Will never forget watching it live.
@BillyKingsley said:
Why is it when people talk about greatest team winners they never talk about Bill Russell, the only NBA player to have won more championships than he has fingers? Nobody can say they have done it better than he did.
I feel if the games of the late 50s and 60s had been recorded there would be zero debate, everyone would know who the greatest is. It's not Jordan. Jordan is top 5 but not top 3.
However, I will say the food poisoning game is the most incredible singular performance I've seen in any sport. Will never forget watching it live.
As a native to Massachusetts, born in the 1970s, I grew up hearing about Russell and watching Bird. While it does seem to me that Russell is too often forgotten about, he also seems to be discussed as the perfect example of why most rings doesn't always equal best. I didn't see him play. I've seen much video.
@BillyKingsley said:
Why is it when people talk about greatest team winners they never talk about Bill Russell, the only NBA player to have won more championships than he has fingers? Nobody can say they have done it better than he did.
First of all, he gets mentioned plenty, second of all HE didn't win those championships, his team mates (and him too of course) won them.
Russell was a great defender, but not a great scorer and doesn't belong anywhere near the GOAT discussion.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Comments
you reject the notion that wilt got the same treatment? does it even remotely seem realistic that playing the center position, one could play the amount of games and huge amount of minutes per game as wilt and NEVER foul out? that is ludicrous. of course he got a very similar treatment as Jordan.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Probably not going to beat him in a boxing match without training, but if I had to pick one of them to come with me in an alley fight, I would take Chamberlain over Ali.
Wilt used to train with Arnold and Arnold talks of how strong Chamberlain was, and how when they were on the set of Conan(the Barbarian not the talk show guy), how Wilt picked Arnold up like it was nothing.
I once took a ten week co-ed martial arts training class. One of the first things the instructor said to the class, specifically mentioning the women in the class, is that paraphrase, regardless of how good you get with the martial arts, you're still likely not going to beat any bigger stronger male even if that male is not skilled in the martial arts.
Of course in certain sports where weight is a factor, there are weight divisions to account for that. In an Ali-Chamberlain fight with a finely tuned boxer in Chamberlain, it might even be unfair to Ali. Ali was a heavyweight, and Chamberlain really should have been in some heavier weight classification considering his size and physical capabilities which you mentioned.
Ali was certainly one of the most intelligent boxers of all time, and he was so great, that perhaps with a rope-a-dope type tactic or something else, he may have found a way to beat Chamberlain in the ring. It would have been a most interesting fight on a worldwide level. I'd say probably Wilt would have been the favorite to win it, possibly a heavy favorite.
But again, if Wilt just lackadaisically trains for a few months and that's it, then Ali beats him easily.
That is a very interesting point. However Wilt was so gifted, he didn't need to foul to block a shot.
Actually an opposing strategy was to foul Wilt, depending on the game situation. It was painful to watch Wilt trying to make free throws and in fact he would sometimes attempt them underhanded.
Jordan only played 6 seasons? Weird. I thought he played more which would mean he had more than 6 chances at a title. I must be misremembering the Bulls flopping in 95 against Orlando.
It doesn't say he only played six seasons, it says he had six chances, which he did. The 91 Finals was his first chance, the 92 Finals was his second chance, the 93 Finals was his third chance, the 96 Finals was his fourth chance, the 97 Finals was his fifth chance, and the 98 Finals was his sixth chance. He didn't even play a full season in 95. I understand people don't like Jordan, I get it.
Like I said, everyone has their own opinion as to who the GOAT really is. I like Jordan as GOAT, that's just my opinion. Some people take Wilt, some take Kareem, some take Bird or Magic. If I want to win a championship, I'm taking Jordan.
Doesn't he have a chance to win a Finals every year he plays? I have to be consistent, and I said with Tom Brady(after his four championships) that getting to a Super Bowl and losing is better than Joe Montana losing his chance for more with a second round playoff bounce.
Jordan has been my pick as best ever due to his ability to play defense in addition to his offense, but I posed this question on Wilt because I'm not so certain on Jordan being such the slam dunk GOAT that everyone says. The more I think about it, if they were all lined up in the gym standing shoulder to shoulder, and I'm the coach, I'm probably going with Chamberlain at this point.
I don't think the NBA fandom is fully comprehending Chamberlain's physical attributes. It isn't just being tall.
Absolutely priceless, here is the video of Howard Cosell with Ali and Chamberlain talking about their fight. Ali is in true Ali form, even saying he is going to whoop Cosell too, lol. They do some measurements.
One thing for certain, Wilt could not match Ali's words. Ali was the star entertainer of the promotion for sure.
Here is Jim Brown talking about the fight and that he was going to manage Wilt and that in the end it was Ali's manager who backed out of the fight after second thoughts. Brown said they then offered for Brown to fight Ali but Brown said no way he knows better and had no chance.
this is the most intellectually consistent take. every player absolutely has a chance to win a championship in every season he plays. jordan had 15 chances to win a championship and actually won 6. brady has had 19 chances to win a championship and won 7 times. Montana had 13 chances to win and won 4 times. we cant just take finals appearances as a players only chance.
it is absolutely better to make it to the championship round/game and loose than to loose in earlier rounds or not make the playoffs at all.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
that video with Ali and Chamberlain really put his size into perspective. with some training, Wilt probably would have beaten ali, just due to sheer size, strength. there is a reason there are weight classes.
i think I can remember years ago a boxing match between shaq and oscar de la hoya. oscar couldn't really hurt him due to the size difference. i would imagine that if shaq had 6 months to really train with a boxing guy that he could have beaten de la hoya.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Thanks.
I would take Jordan because of what he became. He was a tyrant about winning. He would die to win. He pushed his teammates harder than anyone and himself. He hated to lose worse than anyone I've ever seen, he had that of fire burning inside of him. There was a photo of him in a book I read about him, that showed him and the janitor at the Bulls practice facility, the janitor was sweeping and Jordan was shooting free throws, and it said something like, "while everyone else is sleeping, Jordan is improving." That was how bad he wanted to win and be the best. He had a fire burning inside of him like I've never seen before to win and be the best. Like I said before, if he had stuck around for full seasons in 94 and 95, I believe the Bulls would have won 8 straight titles. That's just my opinion, no one else has to agree. If you go back and watch him play in the food poisoning game, he looked like he was about to keel over, his face, his body language, he looked miserable and you could tell he was really sick, but he wanted to win so bad that he went out there and dropped 38 on the Jazz and the Bulls won. At the end of the game, Pippen had to help him. He wanted to win that bad, he had that kind of fire burning inside. Plus, he is still the all time leader in points average and he was a beast on defense. I'm taking Jordan as GOAT, that's just my opinion.
I watched all those games as they happened, and the Bulls certainly had more titles in them had Jordan not retired, twice.
I don't discount the food poisoning game, but my brother was a Laker fan, so we always had debates....and he always brought up how the reports after the game, or the next day, would say that "Jordan was battling the flu." The reports happened enough where we got a chuckle out of it, enough that either Jordan was the sickliest human on the planet, or that they may have embellished a few 'colds' into the flu....because if you truly have the flu...you are on your arse.
I agree that Jordan is the GOAT basketball player. he was the greatest scorer the game has ever seen. he was also a lock down defender and he really could pass the ball when need be. He was also the most fluid/graceful basketball player I have ever seen.
I also agree that he had a very rare fire to win at all costs. I would disagree that his desire to win was singular in the sports world though. I would say I have seen the same characteristics in Larry Bird, Roger Clemens, Curt Schilling and Tom Brady. all 4 of those guys were INTENSE about winning. Larry was a well-known gym rat.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I remember the 92' Dream Team, reading stories about their practices. All of those guys, Jordan, Bird, Magic, guys who were just obsessed with winning, all in the same gym practicing. The practices would turn really serious and guys would start getting angry and stuff. 😂😂
The defense of the Bulls teams in the 90's was their true ability, after Jordan's ability to take over a game, that made them the force that they were.
I see on social media how people create these all time teams with Lebron etc...and they say "this team would never lose."
The reality is that the next "all time team" someone poses is just as good and if they played each other 100 times, the record will be 52-48, and the next 100 it could easily reverse.
But, my point is, whenever I see Lebron on someone's team and they say, "there is no answer to him," I ALWAYS think of Dennis Rodman, because Rodman is the cure to that problem. Maybe in today's rules Rodman would not be the answer, but if Rodman were allowed to play defense vs Lebron like Rodman did when he played, then he would be inside Lebron's head so fast that it would be pure entertainment to watch. That is in addition to his ability to actually play defense too, not just the mental anguish Rodman would cause.
Jordan, Rodman, Pippen, and Harper...their defense is unmatched in history as a unit. Even better than the Bad Boys Pistons.
Harper does not get the credit for his defense. On those teams he played hard on defense, and he was a six foot six point guard for the Bulls. The second three peat Bulls are as good as any team in history. Probably the best because of their hungry defense in addition to having the great scorer.
you are 100% correct on the worm being the answer to the lebron problem. he would have taken up residence in his head by the end of the first quarter.
as far as people calling lebron the goat, I refuse to call anyone the greatest who passes up so many game-winning/tying shots. i have seen him many times and in big games pass up on buzzer shots. I want my goat to demand the ball in crunch time. in basketball, give me Jordan or Bird all day.
people forget what a killer Isaiah Thomas was as well. he was small, but the man demanded victories.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Didn't they have to put in a rule regarding Chamberlain and free throws? If my recollection of stories is correct, didn't Chamberlain do a running start and jump towards the basket on free throws? That is why free throw shooters have to be behind the line until the ball touches the rim.
Wilt Chamberlain: Free throw plane
When Wilt Chamberlain was in high school, he had a unique way of shooting free-throws. He would stand at the top of the key, throw the ball up toward the basket, take two steps, jump toward the rim and jam the ball through the net. Doing this resulted in basketball rules to state that a player cannot cross the plane of the free-throw line when shooting a free-throw.
In 1956, during his freshman year in college, the NCAA banned dunking free throws, as a result of rumors that Chamberlain had been doing that in high school. Later, the NBA also banned dunking free throws.
Although Chamberlain had problems shooting free-throws throughout his career, the rule did not really improve his already dominant game.
that is a great story about wilt dunking free throws. never heard it before
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Yeah, the point was that he had a chance every year he played. So he had way more than 6 chances.
If you grew up or lived in certain areas, the liquor store was called the package store. I worked at one throughout high school. There was a manager of some sort, as I remember, who liked to talk sports and I would engage him in conversation. It was Shaq's rookie or second season. He pointed out some similarities between Shaq and Wilt, and focussed on the idea that if they were ever willing and/or able to really practice and learn to shoot a free throw .....and you know how the story goes.
Edit, auto correct
He was human against the Pistons for years. The Pistons never gave him a chance to travel. They employed the Jordan Rules. The refs used to let Detroit play against him.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Ah, yes, the Jordan rules...
Indeed.
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
werent the jordan rules more about roughing jordan up on drives to the basket? it has been a while, but it seems they were trying to keep him outside and not attacking the basket so on every drive, spider legs salley, Laimbeer and Rodman were all collapsing and putting the hammer on Jordan so he hit the floor every time.
at least that is how I remember it
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Please explain to me why it's impressive for an NBA player when he has success in the postseason against tougher defenses than it is for an MLB player when he faces tougher pitching and defenses during the postseason.
Why is it impressive for Jordan, but not impressive for Brett ?
Why does Jordan get your praise for his post season success but Brett does not ?
Jordan's postseason data is impressive.
Brett's postseason data is impressive.
Why do you praise the one and totally discount the other ?
If sports is about performance, than you are correct to praise Jordan.
If sports is about performance, then you are illogical to discount Brett.
Devised by Isiah Thomas in 1988, the Pistons' strategy was "to play him tough, to physically challenge him and to vary its defenses so as to try to throw him off balance. Sometimes the Pistons would overplay Jordan to keep the ball from him. Sometimes they would play him straight up, more often they would run a double-team at him as soon as he got the ball to force him to go left, which he was less successful in doing. Additionally, whoever Jordan was guarding on defense, Detroit would force that player to pass the basketball in order to make Jordan work extremely hard on both ends of the court, thus increasing his fatigue level and rendering him less effective.
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I'm not anti-Jordan or Wilt because they both were incredible.
But I love team basketball, so my greatest of all time would be Magic or Bird.
If you want the greatest individualist of all time in basketball, than it would be Jordan or Wilt.
If you wanted the greatest team player of all time, then it's Magic or Bird. I'm sure there are others in that discussion too.
That's why Gonzaga is so much fun to watch this year. They have five great players on the floor at all time.
They all share the ball. They play a team game the way the 80s Lakers and Celtics did.
thank you. it has been a few years. I thought it was more about beating him down than causing him to travel. I had forgotten about the tactics they employed on offense with the player jordan was guarding.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I think Dennis Rodman said, "when Jordan went to the basket, the strategy was to put him on the bleeping ground."
Last photo reminds me of Chevy Chase in Fletch dreaming of playing for the lakers.
i love that last image. that is intensity.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Me too.
As a Pistons fan those look like offensive fouls to me
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
NBA teams have had a history of not really playing defense in the regular season. That is not the case in the playoffs.
NBA teams can focus on the star player and make it much more difficult for that player to beat them. If you watch that Pistons video above, you hear them say exactly that.
Baseball hitting is unique to any other sport where there routinely severe ups and downs. Baseball pitchers cannot 'double team' a hitter in the playoffs.
Two completely different animals.
To clarify, I am not saying Jordan had any special clutch ability in the playoffs over what he already showed in the regular season.
So you can bet your bottom dollar that NBA players could pad their stats more in the regular season, especially in the Western Conference in the 80's., where defense resembled all-star game 'defense'
As a wrestling fan, it looks like the Von Erich clawhold to me.
I completely agree.
It's worth noting that the Pistons were hardly the first team to use physical fouls as a defensive tactic on layups and the like. They did it more but they were hardly alone.
Why is it when people talk about greatest team winners they never talk about Bill Russell, the only NBA player to have won more championships than he has fingers? Nobody can say they have done it better than he did.
I feel if the games of the late 50s and 60s had been recorded there would be zero debate, everyone would know who the greatest is. It's not Jordan. Jordan is top 5 but not top 3.
However, I will say the food poisoning game is the most incredible singular performance I've seen in any sport. Will never forget watching it live.
As a native to Massachusetts, born in the 1970s, I grew up hearing about Russell and watching Bird. While it does seem to me that Russell is too often forgotten about, he also seems to be discussed as the perfect example of why most rings doesn't always equal best. I didn't see him play. I've seen much video.
First of all, he gets mentioned plenty, second of all HE didn't win those championships, his team mates (and him too of course) won them.
Russell was a great defender, but not a great scorer and doesn't belong anywhere near the GOAT discussion.