Wilt Chamberlain
1948_Swell_Robinson
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The Tom Brady threads have caused me to give a lot of thought lately into Wilt Chamberlain and his place in basketball history and sports history.
There was much debate into how much credit Tom Brady should be given for his teams' number of championships compared to how much of it is being on great teams. Good points were made to back each of those stances. No need to rehash.
One point I made in regard to Tom Brady was his measurable QB skills such as arm strength and his accuracy, which result in him completing passes that other QB's cannot. When you add his physical size and compare it to someone like Brees who is smaller, and know there are clearly many passing opportunities that Brady can read and complete better simply by being taller, one can see how those measureables translate into more validity in any evaluation compared to simply looking at stats or titles that have many variables that are impossible to account for.
Wilt Chamberlain.
Forget the aspects of quality of league ,or championships won, both of which have some bearing on evaluating Chamberlain's place in history, but both of which are entities that are impossible to truly separate on what credit goes to chamberlain and what credit goes elsewhere.
What DO we know for certain? We know he was a legit 7+ footer. We know that he could run as fast as almost anyone on the floor. We know he had a giant wing span. We know that he had leaping ability as good or better than almost anyone. He had superior agility. We know he had tremendous strength, and it was raw natural strength, not just weight room strength or 'puffy' muscles.
We know that if we compared those abilities to someone like Shaq that Chamberlain was superior in almost every category.
We know if we compared those abilities of Chamberlain to Jordan, Bird, Magic, Lebron, Jabbar, and Kobe, that Chamberlain is going to beat those guys overall too. I want to stress the strength. There may be guys playing today who are lifting weights and who have weight room strength and may have thicker muscles as a result...but Chamberlain had tremendous natural strength and it would be extremely easy for Chamberlain to add the same or better weight room strength as that isn't rocket science.
Chamberlain had basketball skills too, and I don't want to diminish that. He clearly showed he could put the ball into the hoop, make passes, pull rebounds, and even work as an excellent facilitator in the offense. So he clearly knew the game and wasn't just some athletic guy with no skills. He wasn't just a physical specimen. He knew how to play the game.
To get to the point, considering all that, is it still possible that Chamberlain was the best ever, even if he didn't have all those titles? Even if the league was a little slower and smaller? Are we caught up so much in basketball rings to not recognize how good chamberlain was, and when you consider his 'superhuman' physical abilities, that he may really have been the best ever?
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Stamina. I forgot to add stamina into the mix. Stamina is part training, part natural ability. Chamberlain was second to nobody in stamina....(insert jokes here)......as that is also an ability.
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Isn't that coachable though? If given the choice of all these guys to take as a player, aren't Chamberlain's few shortcomings coachable?
For instance, both Jordan and Magic Johnson were very poor three point shooters for the first several years in their careers. Early on, Jordan also had most of his points coming closer to the basket, albeit via from driving to the basket, and from mid range Jumpers. Jordan was not good from long range for a while.
Jordan, whether it was his own fortitude, or some coaching influence, fixed part of his game that was missing after several years.
Couldn't a good coach, or basketball science, had fixed Chamberlain's free throw shooting or outside shooting? Part of it was that he never really was asked to shoot from the outside...but that was a fixable when comparing him to later generation players.
He was very tall.
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Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
And....he was quite the ladies man. He even called one of my best friend's sister for a date. She declined the offer.
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I will always believe Jordan to be the GOAT. Unguardable on offense, great on defense. I've never seen any athlete so obsessed with winning as Jordan was, just look at the food poisoning game, he wanted to win that bad. He used intimidation to make his teammates play better, and the run they had in the 90s was due to him. If he hadn't taken time off in 94' and 95', the Bulls would have win 8 straight championships. Even Magic Johnson and Larry Bird say Jordan is the GOAT. He was on another level. When it all comes down to it, you play to win, and Jordan played and pushed his teammates to win more than anyone I've ever seen.
All good points.
Those are good points. Jordan is one of the few players that his scoring average actually improved in the playoffs. I know Jordan was clutch, but the fact that his scoring average improved in the playoffs is more impressive in the NBA is because in the playoffs teams actually played a full game of defense.
There is no secret that in the regular season that NBA teams don't give you the 100% full game defensive effort...but that is much different in the playoffs, and the fact that Jordan improved his scoring the playoffs is a testament to how good he was.
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These photos of Jordan and Chamberlain together always send chills up my spine!
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They are so great they can change colors as well
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Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Those are awesome photos! Do you have the original photo?
No, I wish I did!
One thing about Jordan that made him such a nightmare to guard was his ability to hit turn around fadeaways. This is the most difficult shot in basketball to make and defend. He was a master at it. You just can't defend something like this.
Again, a nightmare.
Again with the turn around fadeaway.
How can you guard something like this? Look at his body twisted and he still hits it.
Ridiculous.
Stop it, just stop it!
Shake and bake on Bird.
This is the sickest dunk I've ever seen. It happened at the 2000 Sydney Olympics, Vince Carter leaps over 7 foot 2 Frederic Weis and dunks. It is known simply as, "the dunk of death."
Wilt Chamberlain in basketball. Best there ever was, best there ever will be.
Many thousands.>
You would think so, but think how much the Lakers spent to prevent the hack-a-Shaq to no avail.
It is always a nightmare trying to defend a player who is allowed to travel, as Jordan does on this shot and as he did on so many others.
Jordan did get away with traveling on some shots, this is true, but he made plenty of shots like that without traveling. The fact is, he was unguardable and championships are what he was about, and that's why the game is played, to win championships. When it comes to Michael Jordan, no athlete in history was more obsessed with winning as he was, and pushed his teammates harder than he did. He got away with some travels, but it wouldn't have mattered because he was the fiercest competitor that I've ever seen. That's what sports is about, winning championships, and no one was more driven to do that than Jordan. If I'm a basketball coach, and I have a choice of picking one player in history to build a team around, I'm taking Jordan everyday of the week and twice on Sunday, because he cared that much about winning, and he was that driven to win.
He got away with literally thousands of travels, and there is simply no way of knowing how much it mattered. When I think of Jordan what I picture is him picking up his dribble at the top of the key, taking a couple of steps to his right to run into a defender just minding his own business, drawing a foul for contact Jordan initiated, then taking another step towards the basket and making his shot. I don't know how much talent or fierceness it takes to do that over and over and over again, and I don't really care. I don't blame Jordan because it would have been irrational of him to play by the rules of basketball when the NBA had made clear that the rules didn't apply to him, but neither am I going to grade him on the same scale as the players who didn't get a rules exemption from the NBA.
The era and positional differences make it impossible to identify a single GOAT in basketball, but if pressed to do so I'd pick Chamberlain.
Most people who choose Jordan never saw how athletic Wilt was they just say "he was taller than everybody else" which is a patently idiotic statement.
Wilt is the Basketball GOAT. His numbers, if you look at both scoring and rebounding, are unparalleled.
Fair enough, every era is different, everyone has their own opinion as to who the GOAT is. It's funny though, that a lot of other players like Magic, Lebron, Kobe, guys that are in the mix for GOAT themselves, all seem to think Jordan was the GOAT. They all see it, how great he truly was. Chamberlain was great, but he also had stilts for legs. If I was as tall as Chamberlain, I wouldn't be sitting here right now, I'd be in the NBA making millions. I mean, just look at the guy. If you're that tall, you better be good.
An interesting article on Jordan and Wilt.
When all-time greatest lists come out, either Jordan or Wilt Chamberlain is number one. In all seriousness, no other players are even in the equation of, "Who is the greatest ever?"
Yep, Wilt did average 50.4 pts one season, scored 100 pts in a game, and averaged 27.2 rebounds once.
Jordan finished with the highest scoring average ever (Wilt No. 2) and won six titles on six chances, with six Finals MVP's.
To properly illustrate why Jordan was better I broke their (regular season)careers in half for you to see, and judge for yourself.
Wilt played 14 seasons and Jordan played 15 seasons (over a 19 year span). I will analyze Wilts first seven years vs. Jordan, and then his second seven vs. Jordan's last eight (including Washington stats).
In his first seven seasons Wilt played 543 games and Jordan played 509. Wilt played 25,526 total minutes for an astounding 47.0 minutes per game average! Jordan averaged 38.7 minutes per game (19,673 total minutes).
Wilt scored 21,486 points in his first seven seasons for an average of 39.6 points per night. Jordan scored 16,596 points in his first seven seasons for a 32.6 points per game average. But if you divide those numbers you see who was really the better scorer.
21,486 points divided by 25,526 minutes for Wilt equals .842 points per minute (remember he played 47 minutes a night). For Jordan 16,596 pts divided by 19,673 minutes equals .844 points per minute!
So, amazingly, Jordan was the better scorer.
Wilt (a center at 7'1" 275 pounds) grabbed 13,491 rebounds in his first seven years for a 24.8 average. The next tallest guy in the 8-team league was 6'9" 225 pound Bill Russell. Jordan (a 6'5" 199 pound guard) averaged 6.3 rebs in his first seven seasons.
Wilt dished out 1,850 assists in his first seven seasons for a 3.4 per game average. Jordan dished out 3,108 assists for 5.9 average.
Wilt led the league in scoring seven times in his first seven seasons. Jordan led the league in scoring five times in his first seven seasons.
Wilt made it to the Finals once in his first seven seasons, 1964, and lost to the Celtics four games to one. Jordan made it to the Finals once in his first seven seasons, and won, beating the Lakers four games to one.
In his second seven seasons Wilt played 502 games, and in his last eight Jordan played 563 games. Wilt played 22,333 minutes for an average minutes per game of 44.5!
Jordan played 21,337 minutes in his last eight seasons for an average of 37.9 minutes per night.
In his last seven seasons Wilt never led the league in scoring. He scored 9,933 points in his last seven seasons for a 19.8 points per game average. Jordan led the league five more times in his last eight seasons, for a total of 10, an all-time record. Jordan put up 15,696 pts in that span for a 27.9 pts per game average.
Wilt grabbed another 10,433 boards in his last seven seasons for a 20.8 average. Wilt averaged more rebounds than points in his last seven seasons. The shooting guard Jordan grabbed 3,486 rebounds for 6.2 rebounds per, which led all guards.
Wilt scored way less and passed way more in his last seven seasons. He dished out 2,793 assists in that span, and in his last eight Jordan dished out 2,615 assists.
Both were equal defensively. They were both the greatest for their positions. Jordan led the league in steals three times (a record) and Wilt would have led in blocks, but they didn't keep the stat back then.
In his last seven seasons Wilt won his only two titles (1967,1972). He also lost in the Finals three times (1969, 1970, 1973). His teams never won a title when he was scoring champ. Jordan won five rings in his last eight seasons, never losing in a Finals series (1992,1993,1996,1997,1998). He was also Finals MVP each time and led the league in scoring all six times he won the championship.
So, in conclusion, Wilt did average 50.4 points once and 27.2 rebounds once but it didn't do him any good. Jordan led the league in scoring 10 times and capitalized on it for 6 titles in six finals with six finals mvp's.
Jordan finished right above Wilt as the greatest scorer ever, for an entire career, because Wilt had to stop scoring to win a title, and Jordan didn't have to stop scoring to win a title.
In your honest opinion, if given the same analysis, would you say that Larry Bird may have been better than Jordan?
Wilt Chamberlain was 7'1" when he entered the league. The average height of centers that season was almost 6' 10". So Wilt did have around a 3" height advantage over other centers.
However what those who never saw him play, and watch those grainy clips on Youtube, don't comprehend is his quickness. My Dad who saw Chamberlain play in high school, said he was the quickest basketball player he ever saw. Catlike reflexes as he described it.
No sense regurgitating all the numerous records, etc, that Chamberlain has. Suffice to say he was simply an enigma. A type of player like a Babe Ruth who may only ever come around once.
Taking nothing away from Jordan. He deserves the accolades. But he was no Wilt Chamberlain and neither was anyone else.
Being on a Championship team means_ NOTHING _when discussing who the better player was.
Everyone is going to have their opinion as to who the GOAT really is, but if I have to choose, it's Jordan.
I will say this, when it comes to athleticism, Jordan was on another level.
I think Bird was better than Jordan. But now we've dragged forwards into it and I'll stress that I THINK Bird was better than Jordan, and that I THINK Chamberlain was better than both of them. I'm not going to drag championships or other irrelevant factoids into it, so what I've got are a center's stats from the 60's, a forward's stats from the 80's and a guard's stats from the 90's, all of them playing a team game with different teammates. I'm comfortable enough picking Chamberlain as the GOAT, but there is no way to prove wrong anyone picking Jordan, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Kobe, James, and several others.
I do acknowledge that Jordan was a great player, but it was Jordan, or rather the exemption he got from playing by the rules, that ended my interest in basketball. It was like - it was very much like - MLB deciding a promising young hitter got 4 strikes instead of 3. That hitter would put up some incredible numbers, but it would be apples/oranges to compare them to players who only got 3 strikes, and it would make a mockery of the sport. That's what happened with Jordan.
Interesting take on Bonds with the four strikes, and thus removing having to navigate the steroid issue as a roadblock to lower Bonds's status. Job well done...and that isn't sarcasm. I like that angle.
PS, I'm a huge Jordan fan and watched nearly every game from his start with the Bulls...and he did end up getting his fair share of calls. I dread to say that the Knicks probably should have beat them in the Eastern Finals that one year where they were most likely fouled under the basket and wasn't called against the Bulls. I'm certain if that were reversed and Jordan was the one going up for the shot that a foul would have been called on the first slap at the ball, let alone three slaps.
Magic Johnson and Lebron were also recipients of similar favoritism though. Magic was best at pecking at the refs and getting calls.
In 1990 when the Celtics were rolling with Bird and he got hurt...I think Boston may have beat Bulls in playoffs that season with a fully healthy bird all year and Boston having home court.
I can't comment on Lebron since I stopped watching the NBA before he came along, but I assume you're correct. Once rules exemptions for popular stars became a thing, and fans applauded it, it was certain to continue.
But Magic? I think your own statement refutes itself. That Magic had to "peck" at the refs to get calls means any favoritism he may have been shown wasn't "similar" to what Jordan got. Jordan picked up his dribble and ran into the nearest opponent - even if that opponent was three steps away - in the certain knowledge that the refs would call a penalty on the opponent, and none on Jordan. It was comical, it made a mockery of the game, and it was in no way similar to anything that had come before it.
And the analogy to Bonds is indeed a strong one. Bonds was the GOAT at whatever game that was he was playing, and the case for Jordan as the GOAT of whatever game that was he was playing is a strong one. But games are defined by their rules, and a direct comparison can't be made between players who are playing under one set of rules to those who are playing under a different set of rules because they're playing different games. How many points would Jerry West have scored if he had a 3-point line, and he, and only he, was allowed to take as many steps as required to make fans go "OOOOOOOHHHHH"? We'll never know because West didn't play that game.
Bill Russell who of course played against Chamberlain in many games and won many more championships than Wilt, has stated numerous times that Chamberlain was better than himself, and he says it in a way to mean that it wasn't even close.
Remember all those "Be like Mike" and other commercials, etc, during that time?
The NBA, including the refs, without question had a vested interest in seeing Jordan do as well as possible. So when it came to not calling fouls on him, well that wasn't any accident.
Its a pretty compelling argument you are making.
One of the things I was getting at with Wilt was that he had the strength of Shaq, the big man agility of Olajuwon, and the leaping ability of Jordan....and he was fast.
Jordan did get away with some stuff in his career, but I've heard many times that Chamberlain got special treatment as well. The refs are going to give the star power special treatment. I've heard that the referees were terrified to call fouls on Chamberlain and that he took advantage of it all the time.
Actually, the NBA did everything they could to neutralize Chamberlain, not enhance him.
Chamberlain was simply legendary, and that includes at the time he was playing.
During that era when Ali was the champ, all sorts of notions were being floated around, about what non-boxer could possibly beat Ali in the ring. All the various names which came up were totally laughable...except for Chamberlain.
Just to make it clear, without extensive training over an extended period of time, say for perhaps a couple years, Wilt was not going to beat Ali in the ring. But if Wilt would have put in the necessary time and effort, in my opinion he likely beats Ali and quite easily for a number of reasons.
However the match never came to fruition because i guess that Chamberlain at some point realized all that, and had no intentions of putting in the amount of tough training necessary to become a championship boxer.
all great players get the star treatment from refs. i don't think it is coincidence or some otherworldly talent for staying out of foul trouble that kept Wilt from ever fouling out of an nba game. of course the refs were helping him out.
remember maddux and glavine in the 90s? they were pitching way off the outside portion of the plate and getting called strikes. just the way it was. have to adjust
i don't think Jordan should be singled out for getting the star treatment when all the other super stars were getting the same.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
SteveK, I thought you might appreciate this video clip. Watch an old Wilt Chamberlain shake hands with Shaq,. Three things stand out to me in this short clip.
1) Wilt Chamberlain is a senior citizen in this video and he is still taller than Shaq and Ewing.
2)Watch shaq's arm when he shakes Wilt's hand. His whole body gets yanked by the hand shake.
3). Watch the expression and body language of Shaq after Wilt almost took his arm off in the handshake. It is a look, of "damn" "Jesus that guy is stronger than me."
And did I say Wilt was a senior citizen?
It's not like they kept stats on how many uncalled fouls and traveling each player got, but I 100% reject the notion that other stars before Jordan got "the same" treatment, or anything even close to it. I literally laughed out loud every time I watched the Bulls play, because it was just so ridiculous. Every time Jordan picked up his dribble I would count how many steps he took before he finally shot the ball (average was 3, max was 5). I was a huge NBA fan for a long time before that, but Jordan ended that. Watching the NBA felt more like watching pro wrestling or boxing; I felt foolish rooting for what had obviously become a scripted show. Haven't watched since, but from what I hear the sport never recovered.
i like that vid. old man strength is a thing. I have known quite a few older guys who still could get it done strength wise. i can see the same held for the stilt.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.