How to choose a POP 2/0 So-Called Dollar
Zoins
Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
I was considering whether to pick up this NGC MS65 DLP which is a POP 2/0 at MS65 DPL, though there is a MS65 (non-PL, non-DPL). Other than that, the highest grades are 63.
I was curious what the other MS65 DPL looked like so I had to do some research to compare.
Here's the one I was considering and picked up from Alex A. Pancheco:
Rulau Pa-Ph 108, souvenir of the 1883 German-American Bicentennial celebration at Philadelphia, PA. Gem Uncirculated, certified NGC MS-65DPL, top pop (tied with one other piece in the same grade). DEEP watery mirrors with heavy Cameo contrast, just some light toning due to the aging of the white metal surface. The other MS-65DPL piece sold Mid-2020 on ebay at $1000, and is likely to not be available for some time. So if you want the best in a certified grade, this is likely to be your only chance for the foreseeable future.
Here's the medal:
After a bunch of research, I found a photo of the other one which made my decision easy. I have a few holed pieces but prefer unholed pieces. Holed pieces are graded the same as unholed pieces for these.
Comments
@Zoins.... Good choice and a beautiful SCD...Cheers, RickO
congrats!
BHNC #203
Nice it’s unbelievable how the same coin can look so different depending on how it’s photographed
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923
when I first started to collect SC$'s I would purchase nice examples when I found them, regardless of planchet type. that meant that I initially had quite a few White Metal and Aluminum medals in my collection. I quickly became aware of the fact that those two planchet types were more numerous for most medals that also offered Bronze, Copper and Silver issues. as I progressed, those two, especially White Metal, fell out of favor with me due to the surface condition and appearance, just not overall very eye-appealing to me. I endeavored to be more patient and to seek out Bronze or Copper instead, even though that typically means a much longer wait between purchases. at that, even those can be problematic due to dark brown/black spots and light corrosion.
my wait for many SC$'s has been long as a result but I am more content with the decision than I think I would be with White Metal and Aluminum medals in my collection. I realize it's a personal choice some don't favor. Bronze and Copper just tend to "age" better.
Nice, I like it. Was it done by Charles Barber? The portraits sure resemble the Barber series.
Official Medals designed and issued by Celebration Committee; struck by William H. Warner & Bro., Philadelphia.
Bronze and copper certainly have their charms. I like them too have have quite a few.
For me, the reality is that if one wants super reflective mirrors, often white metal is the place to find it. A lot of the silver So-Called Dollars are pretty heavily toned as to not be able to produce super strong mirrors like the above. Brass can have super strong mirrors too but it’s good to have both white and yellow mirrors. I also have one gold piece that has insane mirrors, but I’m not sure I can find another.
Without getting into every last detail, I believe this Germantown medal may have been engraved by Edward A. Kretschman, a Philadelphia engraver active from 1880s-1890s. His initials are E.A.K. The initials E.A.K. can be found on medals such as GW-1104 (the 43.5mm 1889 Washington Inauguration Centennial - Equestrian) ... and if you look really closely, on HK-143a (1884-85 New Orleans Cotton Expo). If you really look hard, you will find them on HK-607... and that's the connection to the Germantown medal (see photo below). The styles and rim denticles are similar.
William H. Warner & Brother Co (... the brother being Charles K. Warner, the famous Philadelphia medalist who commissioned Key to make his civil war storecards - C.K. Warner) had A LOT of dies... and I think they commissioned A LOT of Philadelphia engravers to do work for them for both Northern and Southern Expos between the 1880s and 1902.
@Zoins ... congrats on the DPL Germantown Medal. Now you need one in Silver...
A So-Called Dollar and Slug Collector... Previously "Pioneer" on this site...
I don't do suspension holes so although the other one with a hole is the same grade as per NGC it's UNC details to me.
that's a change in how I now collect and it sometimes means I pass on otherwise nice medals, but I'm OK with that.
Very interesting and good info. I did.a cursory look. I'm not 100% convinced based on the denticle size and relief, but it's definitely something to investigate.
The bust does remind me of this 25mm medal that @GoldenEgg and I are trying to track down the engraver for:
I don't consider them details since they are holed as issued. For some of these, I think the the unholed version is a "pattern" and the holed version the regular release. I do think it's a bit sad when the hanger is missing from a holed piece because the piece is incomplete. the issue with hangers is that the TPGs won't slab them with hangers. I've seen a lot of sales with a slabbed piece accompanied by it's removed hanger which I think is better than no hanger but still a bit sad. I would be nice for there to be a TPG that kept the hanger. I do note that PCGS will slab just a hanger ring.
As a coin collector, I did ask Jeff if he would assign separate catalog numbers to hold and unholed specimens to which he said no.
For a long time I avoided suspension holes because I was collecting medals where it was reasonably easy to get an unholed version. I picked up this white metal HK-609 Springfield piece by William H Warner because it was unholed. It's a lot whiter and prooflike in hand. It does have some impurities which exist on a a lot of these but at least it's on the reverse.
That being said, I have started to make a few exceptions such as the below. Overall, this piece isn't excessively rare but it is extremely rare to have surfaces preserved at this level. Typically, these come heavily circulated with dull surfaces. This is now graded NGC MS66. NGC was asked to return the silk ribbon but they didn't. I'm guessing they may have needed to cut it or destroy it to get it off.
Agree 100%. These pieces are amazing in hand. These photos are from Alex and he did a good job photographing these.
HK-131 is another POP 2/0 where I had to do a bunch of research to identify and acquire the choice specimen.
Of course, this is a POP 2/1 now as there exists a MS66BN.
If you find any you need to pass on, let me know
I will say that your collection of bronze medals looks amazing!
it's indeed a peculiar thing the way that collection parameters can change over the course of many years. what I one time sought, I now choose to avoid. I believe that early on I was somewhat enchanted with the delicate nature of White Metal and Aluminum and the fact that 100-150 year old medals struck from those alloys had survived so well, White Metal especially. then as I collected more I noticed the slight imperfections, tin pest, spots and haze which tend to predominate Tin. slowly I moved away from collecting those and eventually sold most of what I had.
there are some medals I've owned, Brian Boru Dollars come to mind, which are almost unknown in anything but Aluminum. I've owned two MS64's, both bought raw and then slabbed, that I sold and have determined to somehow, some day, own one in Bronze. another is the German-American, seldom offered in Bronze but I think worth the wait. to holed medals, I really like the various examples that use Washington and the Liberty Bell, but they are almost always holed or in the wrong alloy.
So-Called Dollars can be tough, when we each impose stringent guidelines to our collections things can slow down in a hurry.
Agree. The great thing about your focus is that your set looks amazing together now. It definitely comes across as a well-thought out and focused set. Of course, I know as I've tried to pry away a couple of bronze So-Called Dollars unsuccessfully
some day, just be patient!!
That's the reason for the thread. The interesting thing is that the catalog numbers, certification and pops don't differentiate so you cannot just rely on the pop report. Of course, I like sleuthing around so it's great to find other condition census examples.
Nope as the TPG's sometimes change their minds midstream grading SCD's and Medals with suspension holes as you see some in Details and other in Graded holders.
@keets I'm still smitten by white metal. I couldn't resist picking this up. It's not listed in HK but John Raymond assigned it the Raymond-176 number on his unlisted So-Called Dollar website. Jeff Shevlin and Raymond are also now working together to bring Raymond's pieces into Shevlin's new books.
1892 Nebraska Silver Anniversary So-Called Dollar - Aluminum - by Shubael Davis Childs Company - King-460, Raymond-176 - NGC MS63PL - Ex. Brian S. Holt
I haven't seen this before.
Do you have any photos of one in a details holder due to the suspension hole?
The early tough SC$1's such as the 1859 Nassau Water Works HK-589a come both ways.
Take your time and continue enjoying them!
It's always great to see your collection and love of these
so I sat down today and did a quick perusal of the Hibler-Kappen 2nd edition through parts 1-2, HK-776. I came up with a "hit list" of approximately 30 medals. one is the HK-607 pictured by Pioneer, a medal I have never seen offered for sale or shown by anyone. I also re-read part of the introduction, particularly the section talking about some listings that the authors had never seen. it struck me that there are quite a few on my list that just never surface and they tend to be R-6, so there are quite a few that should be available. Frank's HK-589a example, Nassau Water Works in Bronze, is an R-6 and I think I've seen one. it's also on my list.
whoever is holding these medals is holding them tightly.
@keets keep in mind that R-6 is one of the broadest bins in the rarity scale, more than 3.5x difference across the range of 21-75 examples. There's a big difference between two medals with populations of 70 versus 21, while they're both R-6. There's basically no difference between two medals with populations of 21 versus 20, while one is R-6 and one is R-7.
FWIW, I consider HK-589a as R-6 and HK-607 as R-7. NGC has slabbed 10 examples of HK-589a, so the only way it could be rarer than R-6 is if NGC has slabbed half of the total population. That seems unlikely. NGC has slabbed only only example of HK-607, although I have two of them myself that are unslabbed.
There are about 300 listed HK numbers where NGC has slabbed one or zero examples, compared to about 500 listed HK numbers where they have slabbed at least 10 examples (I haven't looked at exact counts recently -- that's a ballpark).