I agree you can not place all 1794 dollars on the list as the #1 greatest coin. However, if I could pick a single coin to own, I would choose Bruce's 1794 dollar over the 1933 $20.
This coin is in the exact same die state as the copper trial dies and was struck using perfectly aligned and newly polished/burnished dies. All 1794 pieces have die clashing/lapping and/or slight die misalignments - with the exception of just this one piece.
The original mintage was 1,758 so all were likely struck from the same dies. Only one die marriage is known if I am not mistaken. Dies are routinely polished before use. Some coin has to come first. Most of the mintage (PCGS estimates 150/1758 survive) was lost through attrition so we don’t know what most of the mintage looked like.
If this coin is struck like the copper die trials and no other silver specimens are, what conclusion would you draw?
Again, you're reading a lot more into this than is there. Based on the evidence, we can conclude that the coin was an early strike and was struck a short time after trial strikes before any die clashing or substantial die wear. The other 1757 pieces (or at least the extant population) were struck using the same dies. When dies are first used, the dies are heavily polished. Early strikes also tend not to have die clashes. In short, what you describe is what one would expect from an early strike/proof like piece.
The fact that this is an early strike and proof like makes it highly desirable and worth a premium. This is not the same as it being a "specimen," "special strike," "presentation piece," or the like. In the absence of any documentation or other evidence to corroborate it, the coin is indistinguishable from what any early strike/PL piece would look like. Special designations and the story are pure speculation and marketing.
Now you’re doing numismatic gymnastics. It is a fact that the coin is a very early strike. It is a fact that it is the same die state and same strike characteristics of the copper die trial. Which means it was struck with the dies aligned - which they weren’t for every other known similar die state specimen. This means the dies were reset after striking this coin [and any others struck at the same time]. It is a fact that there was a striking ceremony for the dollars and that the Secretary of State attended and was presented with a specimen. There is NO doubt about this coin’s specimen status - JA told me he was mentally dead set against stickering it as a Specimen until he saw the coin - it speaks for itself.
Sooooo...if there was an earlier struck silver coin, it was struck at the same time. As a specimen to be saved. Where is it? The simpler explanation is that this is the coin specially struck to be given to the dignitary in attendance. And it was saved as something special all along. Absolute proof? Nope. Preponderance of evidence? Yup.
And I won’t apologize for the nuclear bid strategy that took months to develop. I ended up with the coin which is all I cared about at the time.
Greatness, as beauty, is is the eye of the beholder. I do not consider 1804 silver dollars to be the greatest US coin. Since they had no chance of circulation and were not minted in 1804, I consider them more of a fantasy coin. I have to agree that the 1955 DD Lincoln cent and 1909-S VDB could easily be the Greatest US coin. An 1804 silver dollar is not the greatest US coin just because someone says so in a book. A book listing the 100 greatest US coins is just the author's opinion. If everyone wrote a book of the 100 greatest US coins, none of them would be in the same order and each could have many different coins.
Actually, several 1804 dollars did indeed circulate. And they are not listed as the number one US coin just because somebody wrote a book - they are the number one US coin because of 100 year history of being the ultimate dream of top echelon US coin collectors.
@tradedollarnut said:
Actually, several 1804 dollars did indeed circulate. And they are not listed as the number one US coin just because somebody wrote a book - they are the number one US coin because of 100 year history of being the ultimate dream of top echelon US coin collectors.
I am not a top echelon coin collector and I dream of having one
There is no such thing as a #1 greatest coin. There are only opinions.
In my opinion, a #1 greatest coin would be the coin that had the most impact on the hobby overall, not just a small group of "top echelon US coin collectors". Therefore, I think the 09-S VDB Lincoln Cent would be a strong contender.
Perhaps if we could know what coin resides in more collections than any other coin, that would be a contender for #1 greatest coin.
The 1794 dollar is immensely important as it finally realized the vision of Thomas Jefferson (and others) "Taking into our view all money transactions, great and small, I question if a common measure of a more convenient site than a Dollar could be proposed." (TJ 1784 "Notes on the Establishment of a Money Unit"). The 1794 is the first dollar coin in what is now the currency unit of the world's largest economy.
No coin captures intrigue like the Class I 1804 Dollar. The puzzle was deciphered over one hundred years later by great numismatists. The first time coins were used as diplomatic gifts to world leaders, as directed by the president to the treasury secretary, to the director of the Mint, who produced "a set of coins" that included all coins of the Coinage Act, with the Eagle and Dollar dated in the last year they were delivered.
The above two coins can capture the imagination and interest of people outside the hobby and bring them in much better than die varieties or fractional coins. They are also beautiful designs that were elegantly hand engraved.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
@Nysoto said:
No coin captures intrigue like the Class I 1804 Dollar. The puzzle was deciphered over one hundred years later by great numismatists. The first time coins were used as diplomatic gifts to world leaders, as directed by the president to the treasury secretary, to the director of the Mint, who produced "a set of coins" that included all coins of the Coinage Act, with the Eagle and Dollar dated in the last year they were delivered.
I think one thing that is happening over time is that as mysteries get solved, the intrigue for previous generations isn't passed down as new generations are faced with coins where a lot is known.
Basically, these coins were gifts, either outright diplomatic gifts or specially sold to well connected private collectors. While nice, I think over time, new generations of collectors may not hold these origin stories in as high a regard as other coins, such as ones struck for circulation. We see some of this on the forums already.
I like 1804 Class I Dollars because they are rare, but personally rank them below coins struck for normal circulation purposes like the Brand-Eliasberg 1822 Half Eagle and Eliasberg 1873-CC No Arrows Dime. I just didn't grow up with the mystery and intrigue of the 1804 Class I dollar, but for today's collectors, I feel the 1822 Half Eagle is still very mysterious. Now I would still love to have a 1804 Dollar and it's still a great coin for making a statement, but it doesn't seem to hold much "intrigue" for today's new collectors, it's an NCLT issue for kings and king-like collectors.
The 1794 dollar is immensely important as it finally realized the vision of Thomas Jefferson (and others) "Taking into our view all money transactions, great and small, I question if a common measure of a more convenient site than a Dollar could be proposed." (TJ 1784 "Notes on the Establishment of a Money Unit"). The 1794 is the first dollar coin in what is now the currency unit of the world's largest economy.
On the other hand, the plugged Cardinal-Morelan specimen is still very intriguing to me as it's place in history is still being established and accepted. I'd love to see close up comparisons of the top specimens.
The above two coins can capture the imagination and interest of people outside the hobby and bring them in much better than die varieties or fractional coins. They are also beautiful designs that were elegantly hand engraved.
I don't think either of these coins hold that much interest for people outside of the hobby.
Outside of the hobby, I think the 1933 DE and 1913 Liberty Nickel are the top coins.
@tradedollarnut said, about the 1804 dollar, that it earned the number one position : “ because of 100 year history of being the ultimate dream of top echelon US coin collectors.”
Indeed, also because of a 100 year history of being the ultimate dream of many US coin collectors who could never really hope to own one!
@tradedollarnut said:
And I won’t apologize for the nuclear bid strategy that took months to develop. I ended up with the coin which is all I cared about at the time.
The bidding comment wasn’t intended as a pot shot. If anything it shows you are a true collector and passionate about collecting (especially silver dollars).
@Zoins said:
Outside of the hobby, I think the 1933 DE and 1913 Liberty Nickel are the top coins.
When you first start collecting, what are the first three rarities you hear about? For me and I’d venture to guess most collectors, the two you mention above and the 1804 dollar.
@Zoins said:
Outside of the hobby, I think the 1933 DE and 1913 Liberty Nickel are the top coins.
When you first start collecting, what are the first three rarities you hear about? For me and I’d venture to guess most collectors, the two you mention above and the 1804 dollar.
Outside the hobby means people who are not collecting, starting or otherwise.
My own dream coin is the chain cent that the EAC guys call (or called) "The Coin". I wouldn't attempt to pick a single "greatest" coin. I do like the idea of calling the 1804 the "King" of coins as that term has been around and is more or less simply a nickname, albeit a very suggestive one, like calling Arnold Palmer the "King" or Frank Sinatra the "Chairman of the Board". Connotes respect and importance without using a debatable adjective.
@oldabeintx said:
I do like the idea of calling the 1804 the "King" of coins as that term has been around and is more or less simply a nickname, albeit a very suggestive one
In a country without kings, it is the only coin made just for kings... albeit by accident.
If you think about it, it’s also the King of Error Coins!
I have to admit that I was with JA when it came to calling this 1794 Dollar a "Specimen Coin" until I saw these images of it. The prior pictures I have seen under emphasized the sharpness of the detail and over emphasized the adjustment marks. These pictures show how special this coin is.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
It's hard to say which coin should be called "the greatest." I agree that the 1804 Dollar probably falls short, but I would rate the King of Siam Proof set, which contains one of the best 1804 dollar, as the greatest American Proof set. That has been my "dream set" for many years.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@BillJones said:
I have to admit that I was with JA when it came to calling this 1794 Dollar a "Specimen Coin" until I saw these images of it. The prior pictures I have seen under emphasized the sharpness of the detail and over emphasized the adjustment marks. These pictures show how special this coin is.
Had a nice long conversation with JD about this coin yesterday. He says it’s definitive that the copper pattern and silver plug were struck consecutively prior to all others. The small reverse rotation is not present on the clashed circulation strikes and the dies are canted on all others. So what happened is after this specimen was struck, the dies were removed from the press at some point and then improperly reinserted. When they were clashed is unknown but it was either directly after this coin was struck or directly before every other known coins were struck.
It certainly must have been known prior to the striking ceremony that the Secretary of State was going to attend. It makes sense to strike a presentation specimen in advance for such a dignitary. What’s exciting is that subsequently he forwarded it to George Washington.
Comments
I agree you can not place all 1794 dollars on the list as the #1 greatest coin. However, if I could pick a single coin to own, I would choose Bruce's 1794 dollar over the 1933 $20.
I definitely think it is the most aesthetically pleasing and it is certainly the largest in size.
It DOES have an interesting history.
I have longed for one, since my Redbook, childhood days.
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My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Kinda like choosing between Jordan and Lebron and leaving out Kareem and Wilt.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
Now you’re doing numismatic gymnastics. It is a fact that the coin is a very early strike. It is a fact that it is the same die state and same strike characteristics of the copper die trial. Which means it was struck with the dies aligned - which they weren’t for every other known similar die state specimen. This means the dies were reset after striking this coin [and any others struck at the same time]. It is a fact that there was a striking ceremony for the dollars and that the Secretary of State attended and was presented with a specimen. There is NO doubt about this coin’s specimen status - JA told me he was mentally dead set against stickering it as a Specimen until he saw the coin - it speaks for itself.
Sooooo...if there was an earlier struck silver coin, it was struck at the same time. As a specimen to be saved. Where is it? The simpler explanation is that this is the coin specially struck to be given to the dignitary in attendance. And it was saved as something special all along. Absolute proof? Nope. Preponderance of evidence? Yup.
And I won’t apologize for the nuclear bid strategy that took months to develop. I ended up with the coin which is all I cared about at the time.
Greatness, as beauty, is is the eye of the beholder. I do not consider 1804 silver dollars to be the greatest US coin. Since they had no chance of circulation and were not minted in 1804, I consider them more of a fantasy coin. I have to agree that the 1955 DD Lincoln cent and 1909-S VDB could easily be the Greatest US coin. An 1804 silver dollar is not the greatest US coin just because someone says so in a book. A book listing the 100 greatest US coins is just the author's opinion. If everyone wrote a book of the 100 greatest US coins, none of them would be in the same order and each could have many different coins.
Actually, several 1804 dollars did indeed circulate. And they are not listed as the number one US coin just because somebody wrote a book - they are the number one US coin because of 100 year history of being the ultimate dream of top echelon US coin collectors.
I am not a top echelon coin collector and I dream of having one
Nothing more than a fantasy restrike
They were official issues made for Kings. Also, they weren’t intended to be fantasies. Mint records just were that good back then!
That makes them very different than fantasy restrikes made for collectors to me.
There is no such thing as a #1 greatest coin. There are only opinions.
In my opinion, a #1 greatest coin would be the coin that had the most impact on the hobby overall, not just a small group of "top echelon US coin collectors". Therefore, I think the 09-S VDB Lincoln Cent would be a strong contender.
Perhaps if we could know what coin resides in more collections than any other coin, that would be a contender for #1 greatest coin.
The 1794 dollar is immensely important as it finally realized the vision of Thomas Jefferson (and others) "Taking into our view all money transactions, great and small, I question if a common measure of a more convenient site than a Dollar could be proposed." (TJ 1784 "Notes on the Establishment of a Money Unit"). The 1794 is the first dollar coin in what is now the currency unit of the world's largest economy.
No coin captures intrigue like the Class I 1804 Dollar. The puzzle was deciphered over one hundred years later by great numismatists. The first time coins were used as diplomatic gifts to world leaders, as directed by the president to the treasury secretary, to the director of the Mint, who produced "a set of coins" that included all coins of the Coinage Act, with the Eagle and Dollar dated in the last year they were delivered.
The above two coins can capture the imagination and interest of people outside the hobby and bring them in much better than die varieties or fractional coins. They are also beautiful designs that were elegantly hand engraved.
I think one thing that is happening over time is that as mysteries get solved, the intrigue for previous generations isn't passed down as new generations are faced with coins where a lot is known.
Basically, these coins were gifts, either outright diplomatic gifts or specially sold to well connected private collectors. While nice, I think over time, new generations of collectors may not hold these origin stories in as high a regard as other coins, such as ones struck for circulation. We see some of this on the forums already.
I like 1804 Class I Dollars because they are rare, but personally rank them below coins struck for normal circulation purposes like the Brand-Eliasberg 1822 Half Eagle and Eliasberg 1873-CC No Arrows Dime. I just didn't grow up with the mystery and intrigue of the 1804 Class I dollar, but for today's collectors, I feel the 1822 Half Eagle is still very mysterious. Now I would still love to have a 1804 Dollar and it's still a great coin for making a statement, but it doesn't seem to hold much "intrigue" for today's new collectors, it's an NCLT issue for kings and king-like collectors.
On the other hand, the plugged Cardinal-Morelan specimen is still very intriguing to me as it's place in history is still being established and accepted. I'd love to see close up comparisons of the top specimens.
I don't think either of these coins hold that much interest for people outside of the hobby.
Outside of the hobby, I think the 1933 DE and 1913 Liberty Nickel are the top coins.
@tradedollarnut said, about the 1804 dollar, that it earned the number one position : “ because of 100 year history of being the ultimate dream of top echelon US coin collectors.”
Indeed, also because of a 100 year history of being the ultimate dream of many US coin collectors who could never really hope to own one!
The bidding comment wasn’t intended as a pot shot. If anything it shows you are a true collector and passionate about collecting (especially silver dollars).
When you first start collecting, what are the first three rarities you hear about? For me and I’d venture to guess most collectors, the two you mention above and the 1804 dollar.
I'd love to see close up comparisons of the top specimens
Outside the hobby means people who are not collecting, starting or otherwise.
Not for me I prefer the 1793 Strawberry Cent and 1894-S dime. I also prefer the 1794 dollar and many others.
My own dream coin is the chain cent that the EAC guys call (or called) "The Coin". I wouldn't attempt to pick a single "greatest" coin. I do like the idea of calling the 1804 the "King" of coins as that term has been around and is more or less simply a nickname, albeit a very suggestive one, like calling Arnold Palmer the "King" or Frank Sinatra the "Chairman of the Board". Connotes respect and importance without using a debatable adjective.
In a country without kings, it is the only coin made just for kings... albeit by accident.
If you think about it, it’s also the King of Error Coins!
I will toss in another coin, the 1861-D gold dollar. Nice story and very rare. Is it a US coin or a Confederate coin?
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Dahlonega Type Set-2008 PCGS Best Exhibited Set
Thank you. Without a doubt, the strike on the specimen strike is well beyond that of the other two. It is a special coin.
I have to admit that I was with JA when it came to calling this 1794 Dollar a "Specimen Coin" until I saw these images of it. The prior pictures I have seen under emphasized the sharpness of the detail and over emphasized the adjustment marks. These pictures show how special this coin is.
It's hard to say which coin should be called "the greatest." I agree that the 1804 Dollar probably falls short, but I would rate the King of Siam Proof set, which contains one of the best 1804 dollar, as the greatest American Proof set. That has been my "dream set" for many years.
Had a nice long conversation with JD about this coin yesterday. He says it’s definitive that the copper pattern and silver plug were struck consecutively prior to all others. The small reverse rotation is not present on the clashed circulation strikes and the dies are canted on all others. So what happened is after this specimen was struck, the dies were removed from the press at some point and then improperly reinserted. When they were clashed is unknown but it was either directly after this coin was struck or directly before every other known coins were struck.
It certainly must have been known prior to the striking ceremony that the Secretary of State was going to attend. It makes sense to strike a presentation specimen in advance for such a dignitary. What’s exciting is that subsequently he forwarded it to George Washington.