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Longacre Doubling - Show Your Examples

CatbertCatbert Posts: 6,603 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited March 16, 2021 12:00PM in U.S. Coin Forum

Longacre Doubling is a common sight on several type coins, most notably on the Indian Head cent and the Seated Liberty coins of all denominations. This type of doubling is not the rare double die variety that most collectors swoon over. To distinguish this type of doubling compared to others, here's an interesting link for reference:

jimscoins.com/downloads/Strike%20Doubling%20Flyer.pdf

Nonetheless, I think it adds visual interest.

Why does it occur? As explained here:

"There are two theories for Longacre’s doubling. The first, which is most popular, is that the master die was placed into the die steel to form the master die. To add details to the die, the engraver would then shave the sides of the punch used to add design elements, leaving a lip on that punch’s sides. The engraver would then conduct an extra hard hit to the punch leaving the shaved sides effects into the die. The effect would eventually wear off as the master die did age, which is why not all coins from a particular working die would have the Longacre’s doubling.

This is the second scenario. After adding the design elements to the master die, the engraver would move the punch slightly and tap it again. This would produce a ‘lip’ on the die, and the effect would make the metal flow into the punched in design elements more readily. In theory, this would also have prolonged the die’s life."

error-ref.com/longacre-s-doubling/

Learned former member Conder101 had this to say on another forum:

"I have always felt that Longacre deliberately added that small shoulder to the punches used to create the master dies as a visual aid so he would know when the punch had been driven deeply enough into the die. Longacre was not a die sinker, he was an engraver, in fact mostly a flat plate engraver. So he was not experience in knowing how deeply the lettering needed to punched. The shoulder also aided in die polishing/basining. When the shoulders disappeared the die would be properly basined and the lettering and devices would be at the proper desired relief above the field on the final coin. So a coin that still shows the Longacre doubling is from a die that wasn't properly finished.

After Longacre died the master dies and hubs he had made continued in use so the Longacre doubling effect can be seen long after he passed. But whenever the hubs were modified after he died, even if the general design didn't change, Longacre doubling disappears. For example on the Indian head cent Longacre Doubling is common until 1886, On the later date Hub of 1886 coins Longacre doubling is not seen. On the reverse that the last modification was the hub of 1870 which Longacre must have made in 1869 before his death. That hub was used through the end of the series and Longacre doubling can be found on the reverse through at least 1907."

This topic gives me an excuse to post large pics of my favorite coin. :D Note the full effect surrounding the stars, date, and arrows on the obverse.

On the reverse, see HALF DOL., arrows, and the rays on on the right and bottom.

Pretty cool, ain't it? Post pics of your coins with Longacre Doubling!

"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"

Comments

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    Mr_SpudMr_Spud Posts: 4,436 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Is the big O on the top of the shield Longacre doubling?

    Mr_Spud

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    CatbertCatbert Posts: 6,603 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 16, 2021 12:13PM

    I don't think so because Longacre doubling occurs on all sides, like a halo effect. Yours is something different.

    Edited to add: Shield nickels often show the LD effect though.

    "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
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    Mr_SpudMr_Spud Posts: 4,436 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ok, so maybe like these stars
    On this coin

    Mr_Spud

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    lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,887 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Notably, ONE CENT.
    Lance.


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    KurisuKurisu Posts: 1,849 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 16, 2021 10:31PM

    How's this for more recent? Notice the "UNIT" of United and "DOLLAR"

    Coins are Neato!

    "If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone...somewhere...is making a penny." - Steven Wright

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    Southside7Southside7 Posts: 79 ✭✭✭

    @Catbert
    Beautiful coin and fantastic images! A+ Thanks for sharing.

    @Mr_Spud
    Your coin is a Doubled Die Obverse and can be viewed as F-122 on page 113 of "The Shield Five Cent Series" book by Edward L. Fletcher, Jr.. Doubling can be seen on the leaves, cross and other elements as well. :)

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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Catbert ... Thanks for that link... A very good site and can be of help to many coin collectors - both new and experienced. Cheers, RickO

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    lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,887 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Kurisu - That's strike doubling (aka, machine doubling, shelf doubling, et al). So not on the die.
    Lance.

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    WeissWeiss Posts: 9,935 ✭✭✭✭✭

    1880 $5:

    We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
    --Severian the Lame
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    KurisuKurisu Posts: 1,849 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lkeigwin said:
    @Kurisu - That's strike doubling (aka, machine doubling, shelf doubling, et al). So not on the die.
    Lance.

    Thanks...this is a fun thread! Thanks for the resource and the feedback on my coin. Somehow I read through it and missed that it needed to true die doubling as apposed to just doubled all around...Feel like newbie, but I guess that's healthy one in a while lol! :blush:

    Coins are Neato!

    "If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone...somewhere...is making a penny." - Steven Wright

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    SPalladinoSPalladino Posts: 832 ✭✭✭✭✭

    1876 Indian Head Cent


    Steve Palladino
    - Ike Group member
    - DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
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    retirednowretirednow Posts: 471 ✭✭✭✭✭

    One of more informative blogs ... thanks for sharing

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    lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,887 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Kurisu said:

    @lkeigwin said:
    @Kurisu - That's strike doubling (aka, machine doubling, shelf doubling, et al). So not on the die.
    Lance.

    Thanks...this is a fun thread! Thanks for the resource and the feedback on my coin. Somehow I read through it and missed that it needed to true die doubling as apposed to just doubled all around...Feel like newbie, but I guess that's healthy one in a while lol! :blush:

    We love newbies. It's not long before they're scholars helping other newbies.

    @catbert's OP (original post) addressed the issue of adjustments to the master die by engraver James Longacre. Specifically, tweaks to the die punch...shaving the sides of the punch to leave a lip. There are other less likely theories.

    Point is, there was no die doubling. The die wasn't hubbed (struck) twice with an offset during its preparation. That is true die doubling and its result is found on all coins subsequently struck. Think of the 1955 doubled die Lincoln cent.

    There was no machine doubling where movement from the die during striking caused a shift with a notable "shelf-like" appearance. A stark demarkation. Not smooth and rounded. Such machine (or mechanical) doubling didn't happen with every coin struck from the die.

    No, Longacre doubling appeared as rounded with a clear secondary image. Over time the effect wore away. But while it was strong it appeared on all coins struck.

    There is little-to-no premium for coins with Longacre doubling. But some of us think it's kind of fun.
    Lance.

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    blaircountycoinblaircountycoin Posts: 219 ✭✭✭

    Nice double die!> @Mr_Spud said:

    Is the big O on the top of the shield Longacre doubling?

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    KurisuKurisu Posts: 1,849 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lkeigwin said:

    @Kurisu said:

    @lkeigwin said:
    @Kurisu - That's strike doubling (aka, machine doubling, shelf doubling, et al). So not on the die.
    Lance.

    Thanks...this is a fun thread! Thanks for the resource and the feedback on my coin. Somehow I read through it and missed that it needed to true die doubling as apposed to just doubled all around...Feel like newbie, but I guess that's healthy one in a while lol! :blush:

    We love newbies. It's not long before they're scholars helping other newbies.

    @catbert's OP (original post) addressed the issue of adjustments to the master die by engraver James Longacre. Specifically, tweaks to the die punch...shaving the sides of the punch to leave a lip. There are other less likely theories.

    Point is, there was no die doubling. The die wasn't hubbed (struck) twice with an offset during its preparation. That is true die doubling and its result is found on all coins subsequently struck. Think of the 1955 doubled die Lincoln cent.

    There was no machine doubling where movement from the die during striking caused a shift with a notable "shelf-like" appearance. A stark demarkation. Not smooth and rounded. Such machine (or mechanical) doubling didn't happen with every coin struck from the die.

    No, Longacre doubling appeared as rounded with a clear secondary image. Over time the effect wore away. But while it was strong it appeared on all coins struck.

    There is little-to-no premium for coins with Longacre doubling. But some of us think it's kind of fun.
    Lance.

    Much appreciate the clarification... I really need to stop trying to learn things past my bed time during my evening long haul fogs :blush:

    Coins are Neato!

    "If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone...somewhere...is making a penny." - Steven Wright

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    Lehigh96Lehigh96 Posts: 685 ✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2024 9:02AM

    image

    <a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://stores.ebay.com/Lehigh-Coins">LEHIGH COINS on E-Bay
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    CatbertCatbert Posts: 6,603 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Hey LeHigh! Glad to see you here and thanks for the thread resurrection.

    "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
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    jfriedm56jfriedm56 Posts: 837 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Catbert, I’ve always known this “doubling” to be referred to as re-engraved dies, found on a number of IHCs. Are we referencing the same conditions you’re talking about.

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    CatbertCatbert Posts: 6,603 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes.

    "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
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    dcarrdcarr Posts: 8,000 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Mr_Spud said:
    Is the big O on the top of the shield Longacre doubling?

    .

    That is a legitimate doubled die. There are quite a few varieties like this on early Shield Nickels.

    .

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