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PWCC Vault offer

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  • my .50 cent Carlos Maldonado PSA Rookie card has a plastic sleeve

  • billwaltonsbeardbillwaltonsbeard Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭✭

    So far, I've learned the following:

    The douchebag flopping and slamming the slabs is/was a PWCC employee. I was advised that only PWCC employees are allowed into the Vault.

    The video was made and posted at the request of the submitter/owner of the cards.

    I was assured that this matter has 'absolutely been addressed' and that 'any action deemed necessary has been taken'.

    She would not elaborate on the employee's identity or current employment status. I requested that this 'employee' never touch my cards. I also suggested that they should release some sort of statement. She politely brushed me off.

  • GoldenageGoldenage Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Imagine back in 1972, or what ever time period you grew up in, you ride your bike to the store with your .50 cents for a few packs of cards and a soda. You get your cards, park your bike, open your soda, and rip open the packs. Then you stick them in an envelope and send them off to someone who will store your cards for you instead of going home and putting
    them in your shoebox.

    I just can not understand anyone who sends their "collection" to anyone to keep for them. Doesn't sound
    like a "collection" at all. Sounds like just another "investment". I wish the people who are using the vault could understand the joy of having those cards that they got while sitting on the curb with their bike and their soda in their own possesion.

  • LarkinCollectorLarkinCollector Posts: 8,975 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Salt of the earth response.

  • i guess if i wanted to sell a card and not auction in it , you can send them to put in as a sale in the Vault .... almost like a COMC. for high end cards

  • emaremar Posts: 697 ✭✭✭✭

    @billwaltonsbeard said:
    So far, I've learned the following:

    The video was made and posted at the request of the submitter/owner of the cards.

    Could you slap around my cards please.
    Sure, no problem!

  • 80sOPC80sOPC Posts: 1,356 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not to pile on too much, but anyone that believes third party storage is completely safe needs to do more research. High end wine store companies have had issues.

    My advice is double up the insurance. I would never trust third party insurance that I don’t control to cover my stuff. I

    And unless PWCC is allowing you financial audit rights, you have no idea how safe your cards would be. There could creditors ahead of you both on your cards in a default. Trust in this model is everything and PWCC has trust issues IMO.

    Examples of all the above in the wine hobby.

    If I had 1mm+ in cards I would build a fireproof safe and self insure. Less risk IMO, would rather control my own destiny with the safe as first line, the insurance as second line.

  • billwaltonsbeardbillwaltonsbeard Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭✭

    @lawyer05 said:
    i guess if i wanted to sell a card and not auction in it , you can send them to put in as a sale in the Vault .... almost like a COMC. for high end cards

    Or you could always send it to Auction. Or you could sell it privately and ship it to any address. With the exception of this video, the Vault is great :|

  • @billwaltonsbeard said:

    @lawyer05 said:
    i guess if i wanted to sell a card and not auction in it , you can send them to put in as a sale in the Vault .... almost like a COMC. for high end cards

    Or you could always send it to Auction. Or you could sell it privately and ship it to any address. With the exception of this video, the Vault is great :|

    when you sell it privately, you have to pay them to release the card ?

  • 80sOPC80sOPC Posts: 1,356 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Oh and fergie23, I get your dilemma. Not an easy decision or many good options.

  • billwaltonsbeardbillwaltonsbeard Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭✭

    @lawyer05 said:

    @billwaltonsbeard said:

    @lawyer05 said:
    i guess if i wanted to sell a card and not auction in it , you can send them to put in as a sale in the Vault .... almost like a COMC. for high end cards

    Or you could always send it to Auction. Or you could sell it privately and ship it to any address. With the exception of this video, the Vault is great :|

    when you sell it privately, you have to pay them to release the card ?

    Yes, you'll have to pay for shipping. But according to this promotion, there will never been any storage fees involved.

  • @billwaltonsbeard said:

    @lawyer05 said:
    i guess if i wanted to sell a card and not auction in it , you can send them to put in as a sale in the Vault .... almost like a COMC. for high end cards

    Or you could always send it to Auction. Or you could sell it privately and ship it to any address. With the exception of this video, the Vault is great :|

    if i wanted to auction it, i would just auction it with them, i wouldn't want anyone else holding my cards.....

  • billwaltonsbeardbillwaltonsbeard Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭✭

    @lawyer05 said:

    @billwaltonsbeard said:

    @lawyer05 said:
    i guess if i wanted to sell a card and not auction in it , you can send them to put in as a sale in the Vault .... almost like a COMC. for high end cards

    Or you could always send it to Auction. Or you could sell it privately and ship it to any address. With the exception of this video, the Vault is great :|

    if i wanted to auction it, i would just auction it with them, i wouldn't want anyone else holding my cards.....

    I hear you. But as someone on another thread pointed out, one of the drawbacks of selling a card via a consignment site is that it takes a few weeks to get the card into an auction. If you have a card curated in their vault, you could send it to auction with very little notice.

    I'm sending in some of my biggest cards. Not for long-term storage....but to capitalize on a hot card.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,251 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @billwaltonsbeard said:
    So far, I've learned the following:

    The douchebag flopping and slamming the slabs is/was a PWCC employee. I was advised that only PWCC employees are allowed into the Vault.

    The video was made and posted at the request of the submitter/owner of the cards.

    I was assured that this matter has 'absolutely been addressed' and that 'any action deemed necessary has been taken'.

    She would not elaborate on the employee's identity or current employment status. I requested that this 'employee' never touch my cards. I also suggested that they should release some sort of statement. She politely brushed me off.

    I am just positive you got a straight answer, Betsy is just as honest as they come, you know, salt of the earth. (can you see the sarcasm dripping off from my post?)

    she has already lied to you. you must not have seen the DJ skee Instagram vid. he was inside the vault, slinging other peoples slabs around. he is not an employee.

    I am sure she has stuck multiple post it notes all around the vault that this employee is not to touch billwaltonsbeard's cards.

    you do realize she is giving you lip service, right?

    Maybe you should get fitted for a tin foil hat yourself. You can build an environment where your cards are more secure at your home and not have to worry about bozos like this flinging your slabs around or as 80sopc stated if the business goes under being behind a bunch of creditors to get what is left of your collection.

    way, way, way too much risk.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,251 ✭✭✭✭✭

    think about it. if pwcc is comfortable releasing 2 videos of this type of behavior, thinking it will push forward their business, what do you think they are doing off camera? they thought this was appropriate behavior. they only apologize because they found out literally everyone else disagrees. this is not responsible stewardship of other peoples belongnings.

    I really don't understand why people trust these guys. they really have a terrible track record.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • ScoobyDoo2ScoobyDoo2 Posts: 839 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Goldenage .......Had I done that I'd be worth 50-60 million today.

  • @craig44 said:
    think about it. if pwcc is comfortable releasing 2 videos of this type of behavior, thinking it will push forward their business, what do you think they are doing off camera? they thought this was appropriate behavior. they only apologize because they found out literally everyone else disagrees. this is not responsible stewardship of other peoples belongnings.

    I really don't understand why people trust these guys. they really have a terrible track record.

    I know what you mean Vern

  • billwaltonsbeardbillwaltonsbeard Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:
    ^^^^this

    I really believe the best/safest option is to purchase a large "fireproof" firearm safe. then build a small room around said safe lined with gypsum board to further help with the fire rating. purchase an exterior metal door to access the "safe" room and mount small blink security cameras on both the inside and outside of the safe room. those cameras record to the cloud and will also alert you to changes in temperature.

    I’m really not sure if you’re being serious enough about the security of your collection. I don’t know anything about your construction skills, but I’m assuming you may need to hire a contractor to help you build your fortress. Don’t forget to conduct a thorough background check on the contractor and anyone else involved in the process. Running a check on their family members should also be considered.

    Also, have you considered booby traps? You could install a couple of hidden snake pits. Or, depending on the value of your collection, you could set out some trip-wire IEDs.

    Perhaps a moat surrounding the structure would be the best option. I recommend filling the moat with a dozen great white sharks. I know, piranha is the most popular choice for homemade moats, but they’re so cliché. Let’s be pioneers here!!

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,251 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @billwaltonsbeard said:

    @craig44 said:
    ^^^^this

    I really believe the best/safest option is to purchase a large "fireproof" firearm safe. then build a small room around said safe lined with gypsum board to further help with the fire rating. purchase an exterior metal door to access the "safe" room and mount small blink security cameras on both the inside and outside of the safe room. those cameras record to the cloud and will also alert you to changes in temperature.

    I’m really not sure if you’re being serious enough about the security of your collection. I don’t know anything about your construction skills, but I’m assuming you may need to hire a contractor to help you build your fortress. Don’t forget to conduct a thorough background check on the contractor and anyone else involved in the process. Running a check on their family members should also be considered.

    Also, have you considered booby traps? You could install a couple of hidden snake pits. Or, depending on the value of your collection, you could set out some trip-wire IEDs.

    Perhaps a moat surrounding the structure would be the best option. I recommend filling the moat with a dozen great white sharks. I know, piranha is the most popular choice for homemade moats, but they’re so cliché. Let’s be pioneers here!!

    hey man, you are the one advocating shipping through the mail thousands upon thousands of dollars worth of cards to be held in a vault owned by very shady people who have been investigated by the FBI. the same owners have already lied to you about not letting any non-employee into the vault. They have also released 2 videos showing extremely unprofessional handling of "assets" and clearly thinking it was a good way to promote their business as they posted to Instagram.

    this business has also been behind a number of hobby shenanigans in the last number of years. is that the type of people you feel comfortable doing business with?

    if said business finds itself in financial or legal trouble, how safe do you think your "assets" would be? do you really think it would be just an easy email to have them returned?

    you have no idea the amount of insurance is on the contents of this vault. is any of it below ground level or is it in a flood zone? is it fireproof? what are fire procedures?

    these are all questions you have no idea the answers to. If you think you are going to call up Betsy and she will give you the straight-arrow answer, you are absolutely kidding yourself.

    you can poke fun all you want, but going into business with that crew is the funniest thing i have heard all week.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • GoldenageGoldenage Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Fools will not only listen to fools, they will also follow fools.
    The wise will only listen to the wise, and follow the wise.

  • billwaltonsbeardbillwaltonsbeard Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭✭

    People who have very strong opinions about something that doesn't affect them at all need serious help.

  • billwaltonsbeardbillwaltonsbeard Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭✭

    @Goldenage said:
    Fools will not only listen to fools, they will also follow fools.
    The wise will only listen to the wise, and follow the wise.

    Wise? Did you read the description of the card fortress? Wise??

  • Panama Mutiny  (Formerly lawyer05) Panama Mutiny (Formerly lawyer05) Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2021 7:48AM

    @craig44 said:

    @billwaltonsbeard said:

    @craig44 said:
    ^^^^this

    I really believe the best/safest option is to purchase a large "fireproof" firearm safe. then build a small room around said safe lined with gypsum board to further help with the fire rating. purchase an exterior metal door to access the "safe" room and mount small blink security cameras on both the inside and outside of the safe room. those cameras record to the cloud and will also alert you to changes in temperature.

    I’m really not sure if you’re being serious enough about the security of your collection. I don’t know anything about your construction skills, but I’m assuming you may need to hire a contractor to help you build your fortress. Don’t forget to conduct a thorough background check on the contractor and anyone else involved in the process. Running a check on their family members should also be considered.

    Also, have you considered booby traps? You could install a couple of hidden snake pits. Or, depending on the value of your collection, you could set out some trip-wire IEDs.

    Perhaps a moat surrounding the structure would be the best option. I recommend filling the moat with a dozen great white sharks. I know, piranha is the most popular choice for homemade moats, but they’re so cliché. Let’s be pioneers here!!

    hey man, you are the one advocating shipping through the mail thousands upon thousands of dollars worth of cards to be held in a vault owned by very shady people who have been investigated by the FBI. the same owners have already lied to you about not letting any non-employee into the vault. They have also released 2 videos showing extremely unprofessional handling of "assets" and clearly thinking it was a good way to promote their business as they posted to Instagram.

    this business has also been behind a number of hobby shenanigans in the last number of years. is that the type of people you feel comfortable doing business with?

    if said business finds itself in financial or legal trouble, how safe do you think your "assets" would be? do you really think it would be just an easy email to have them returned?

    you have no idea the amount of insurance is on the contents of this vault. is any of it below ground level or is it in a flood zone? is it fireproof? what are fire procedures?

    these are all questions you have no idea the answers to. If you think you are going to call up Betsy and she will give you the straight-arrow answer, you are absolutely kidding yourself.

    you can poke fun all you want, but going into business with that crew is the funniest thing i have heard all week.

    all u need is a client with a default judgment or any judgment against PWCC and an attorney would have 2 movers and 2 moving trucks seizing all assets with a garnishment and put everything in storage for a future Sheriff's sale within a week. By the time it gets sorted out what's PWCC and what's the clients assets to satisfy the judgment, your cards could be all misplaced, mishandled and tied up in litigation for years and stored in a moldy storage facility.

  • billwaltonsbeardbillwaltonsbeard Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭✭

    @lawyer05 said:

    @craig44 said:

    @billwaltonsbeard said:

    @craig44 said:
    ^^^^this

    I really believe the best/safest option is to purchase a large "fireproof" firearm safe. then build a small room around said safe lined with gypsum board to further help with the fire rating. purchase an exterior metal door to access the "safe" room and mount small blink security cameras on both the inside and outside of the safe room. those cameras record to the cloud and will also alert you to changes in temperature.

    I’m really not sure if you’re being serious enough about the security of your collection. I don’t know anything about your construction skills, but I’m assuming you may need to hire a contractor to help you build your fortress. Don’t forget to conduct a thorough background check on the contractor and anyone else involved in the process. Running a check on their family members should also be considered.

    Also, have you considered booby traps? You could install a couple of hidden snake pits. Or, depending on the value of your collection, you could set out some trip-wire IEDs.

    Perhaps a moat surrounding the structure would be the best option. I recommend filling the moat with a dozen great white sharks. I know, piranha is the most popular choice for homemade moats, but they’re so cliché. Let’s be pioneers here!!

    hey man, you are the one advocating shipping through the mail thousands upon thousands of dollars worth of cards to be held in a vault owned by very shady people who have been investigated by the FBI. the same owners have already lied to you about not letting any non-employee into the vault. They have also released 2 videos showing extremely unprofessional handling of "assets" and clearly thinking it was a good way to promote their business as they posted to Instagram.

    this business has also been behind a number of hobby shenanigans in the last number of years. is that the type of people you feel comfortable doing business with?

    if said business finds itself in financial or legal trouble, how safe do you think your "assets" would be? do you really think it would be just an easy email to have them returned?

    you have no idea the amount of insurance is on the contents of this vault. is any of it below ground level or is it in a flood zone? is it fireproof? what are fire procedures?

    these are all questions you have no idea the answers to. If you think you are going to call up Betsy and she will give you the straight-arrow answer, you are absolutely kidding yourself.

    you can poke fun all you want, but going into business with that crew is the funniest thing i have heard all week.

    all u need is a client with a default judgment or any judgment against PWCC and an attorney would have 2 movers and 2 moving trucks seizing all assets with a garnishment and put everything in storage for a future Sheriff's sale within a week. By the time it gets sorted out what's PWCC and what's the clients assets to satisfy the judgment, your cards could be all misplaced, mishandled and tied up in litigation for years and stored in a moldy storage facility.

    Duly noted. Also, lightning could strike the building and start a fire. An airplane could also crash into the building. Some lunatic freak could claim the building as an 'autonomous zone'. I get it, I get it

  • KendallCatKendallCat Posts: 2,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @billwaltonsbeard said:

    @lawyer05 said:

    @craig44 said:

    @billwaltonsbeard said:

    @craig44 said:
    ^^^^this

    I really believe the best/safest option is to purchase a large "fireproof" firearm safe. then build a small room around said safe lined with gypsum board to further help with the fire rating. purchase an exterior metal door to access the "safe" room and mount small blink security cameras on both the inside and outside of the safe room. those cameras record to the cloud and will also alert you to changes in temperature.

    I’m really not sure if you’re being serious enough about the security of your collection. I don’t know anything about your construction skills, but I’m assuming you may need to hire a contractor to help you build your fortress. Don’t forget to conduct a thorough background check on the contractor and anyone else involved in the process. Running a check on their family members should also be considered.

    Also, have you considered booby traps? You could install a couple of hidden snake pits. Or, depending on the value of your collection, you could set out some trip-wire IEDs.

    Perhaps a moat surrounding the structure would be the best option. I recommend filling the moat with a dozen great white sharks. I know, piranha is the most popular choice for homemade moats, but they’re so cliché. Let’s be pioneers here!!

    hey man, you are the one advocating shipping through the mail thousands upon thousands of dollars worth of cards to be held in a vault owned by very shady people who have been investigated by the FBI. the same owners have already lied to you about not letting any non-employee into the vault. They have also released 2 videos showing extremely unprofessional handling of "assets" and clearly thinking it was a good way to promote their business as they posted to Instagram.

    this business has also been behind a number of hobby shenanigans in the last number of years. is that the type of people you feel comfortable doing business with?

    if said business finds itself in financial or legal trouble, how safe do you think your "assets" would be? do you really think it would be just an easy email to have them returned?

    you have no idea the amount of insurance is on the contents of this vault. is any of it below ground level or is it in a flood zone? is it fireproof? what are fire procedures?

    these are all questions you have no idea the answers to. If you think you are going to call up Betsy and she will give you the straight-arrow answer, you are absolutely kidding yourself.

    you can poke fun all you want, but going into business with that crew is the funniest thing i have heard all week.

    all u need is a client with a default judgment or any judgment against PWCC and an attorney would have 2 movers and 2 moving trucks seizing all assets with a garnishment and put everything in storage for a future Sheriff's sale within a week. By the time it gets sorted out what's PWCC and what's the clients assets to satisfy the judgment, your cards could be all misplaced, mishandled and tied up in litigation for years and stored in a moldy storage facility.

    Duly noted. Also, lightning could strike the building and start a fire. An airplane could also crash into the building. Some lunatic freak could claim the building as an 'autonomous zone'. I get it, I get it

    Maybe it is not so much about the vault but the people who own and run it which is the real question. If you had $2 million would you trust Brent and his wife with that money? That is the real?

  • billwaltonsbeardbillwaltonsbeard Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭✭

    @KendallCat said:

    @billwaltonsbeard said:

    @lawyer05 said:

    @craig44 said:

    @billwaltonsbeard said:

    @craig44 said:
    ^^^^this

    I really believe the best/safest option is to purchase a large "fireproof" firearm safe. then build a small room around said safe lined with gypsum board to further help with the fire rating. purchase an exterior metal door to access the "safe" room and mount small blink security cameras on both the inside and outside of the safe room. those cameras record to the cloud and will also alert you to changes in temperature.

    I’m really not sure if you’re being serious enough about the security of your collection. I don’t know anything about your construction skills, but I’m assuming you may need to hire a contractor to help you build your fortress. Don’t forget to conduct a thorough background check on the contractor and anyone else involved in the process. Running a check on their family members should also be considered.

    Also, have you considered booby traps? You could install a couple of hidden snake pits. Or, depending on the value of your collection, you could set out some trip-wire IEDs.

    Perhaps a moat surrounding the structure would be the best option. I recommend filling the moat with a dozen great white sharks. I know, piranha is the most popular choice for homemade moats, but they’re so cliché. Let’s be pioneers here!!

    hey man, you are the one advocating shipping through the mail thousands upon thousands of dollars worth of cards to be held in a vault owned by very shady people who have been investigated by the FBI. the same owners have already lied to you about not letting any non-employee into the vault. They have also released 2 videos showing extremely unprofessional handling of "assets" and clearly thinking it was a good way to promote their business as they posted to Instagram.

    this business has also been behind a number of hobby shenanigans in the last number of years. is that the type of people you feel comfortable doing business with?

    if said business finds itself in financial or legal trouble, how safe do you think your "assets" would be? do you really think it would be just an easy email to have them returned?

    you have no idea the amount of insurance is on the contents of this vault. is any of it below ground level or is it in a flood zone? is it fireproof? what are fire procedures?

    these are all questions you have no idea the answers to. If you think you are going to call up Betsy and she will give you the straight-arrow answer, you are absolutely kidding yourself.

    you can poke fun all you want, but going into business with that crew is the funniest thing i have heard all week.

    all u need is a client with a default judgment or any judgment against PWCC and an attorney would have 2 movers and 2 moving trucks seizing all assets with a garnishment and put everything in storage for a future Sheriff's sale within a week. By the time it gets sorted out what's PWCC and what's the clients assets to satisfy the judgment, your cards could be all misplaced, mishandled and tied up in litigation for years and stored in a moldy storage facility.

    Duly noted. Also, lightning could strike the building and start a fire. An airplane could also crash into the building. Some lunatic freak could claim the building as an 'autonomous zone'. I get it, I get it

    Maybe it is not so much about the vault but the people who own and run it which is the real question. If you had $2 million would you trust Brent and his wife with that money? That is the real?

    As I've previously mentioned, I'm not planning on storing my cards in the Vault for an extended period of time. I'm sending them there to sell at auctions over the next few months. I've done VERY well selling cards via PWCC auctions. And with the cards already curated in the Vault, selling at auction will be very easy.

    Conspiracy theorists and doomsday scenario enthusiasts be damned!

  • My scenario is quite common my friend, i do it for a living on a daily basis.

    Duly noted. Also, lightning could strike the building and start a fire. An airplane could also crash into the building. Some lunatic freak could claim the building as an 'autonomous zone'. I get it, I get it

  • @KendallCat said:

    @billwaltonsbeard said:

    @lawyer05 said:

    @craig44 said:

    @billwaltonsbeard said:

    @craig44 said:
    ^^^^this

    I really believe the best/safest option is to purchase a large "fireproof" firearm safe. then build a small room around said safe lined with gypsum board to further help with the fire rating. purchase an exterior metal door to access the "safe" room and mount small blink security cameras on both the inside and outside of the safe room. those cameras record to the cloud and will also alert you to changes in temperature.

    I’m really not sure if you’re being serious enough about the security of your collection. I don’t know anything about your construction skills, but I’m assuming you may need to hire a contractor to help you build your fortress. Don’t forget to conduct a thorough background check on the contractor and anyone else involved in the process. Running a check on their family members should also be considered.

    Also, have you considered booby traps? You could install a couple of hidden snake pits. Or, depending on the value of your collection, you could set out some trip-wire IEDs.

    Perhaps a moat surrounding the structure would be the best option. I recommend filling the moat with a dozen great white sharks. I know, piranha is the most popular choice for homemade moats, but they’re so cliché. Let’s be pioneers here!!

    hey man, you are the one advocating shipping through the mail thousands upon thousands of dollars worth of cards to be held in a vault owned by very shady people who have been investigated by the FBI. the same owners have already lied to you about not letting any non-employee into the vault. They have also released 2 videos showing extremely unprofessional handling of "assets" and clearly thinking it was a good way to promote their business as they posted to Instagram.

    this business has also been behind a number of hobby shenanigans in the last number of years. is that the type of people you feel comfortable doing business with?

    if said business finds itself in financial or legal trouble, how safe do you think your "assets" would be? do you really think it would be just an easy email to have them returned?

    you have no idea the amount of insurance is on the contents of this vault. is any of it below ground level or is it in a flood zone? is it fireproof? what are fire procedures?

    these are all questions you have no idea the answers to. If you think you are going to call up Betsy and she will give you the straight-arrow answer, you are absolutely kidding yourself.

    you can poke fun all you want, but going into business with that crew is the funniest thing i have heard all week.

    all u need is a client with a default judgment or any judgment against PWCC and an attorney would have 2 movers and 2 moving trucks seizing all assets with a garnishment and put everything in storage for a future Sheriff's sale within a week. By the time it gets sorted out what's PWCC and what's the clients assets to satisfy the judgment, your cards could be all misplaced, mishandled and tied up in litigation for years and stored in a moldy storage facility.

    Duly noted. Also, lightning could strike the building and start a fire. An airplane could also crash into the building. Some lunatic freak could claim the building as an 'autonomous zone'. I get it, I get it

    Maybe it is not so much about the vault but the people who own and run it which is the real question. If you had $2 million would you trust Brent and his wife with that money? That is the real?

    YES, wait no, maybe, probably not.

  • KendallCatKendallCat Posts: 2,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Their stuff sells pretty well overall so might not be a bad idea for a quick vault and sale. Long term - probably not.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,251 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @billwaltonsbeard said:

    @KendallCat said:

    @billwaltonsbeard said:

    @lawyer05 said:

    @craig44 said:

    @billwaltonsbeard said:

    @craig44 said:
    ^^^^this

    I really believe the best/safest option is to purchase a large "fireproof" firearm safe. then build a small room around said safe lined with gypsum board to further help with the fire rating. purchase an exterior metal door to access the "safe" room and mount small blink security cameras on both the inside and outside of the safe room. those cameras record to the cloud and will also alert you to changes in temperature.

    I’m really not sure if you’re being serious enough about the security of your collection. I don’t know anything about your construction skills, but I’m assuming you may need to hire a contractor to help you build your fortress. Don’t forget to conduct a thorough background check on the contractor and anyone else involved in the process. Running a check on their family members should also be considered.

    Also, have you considered booby traps? You could install a couple of hidden snake pits. Or, depending on the value of your collection, you could set out some trip-wire IEDs.

    Perhaps a moat surrounding the structure would be the best option. I recommend filling the moat with a dozen great white sharks. I know, piranha is the most popular choice for homemade moats, but they’re so cliché. Let’s be pioneers here!!

    hey man, you are the one advocating shipping through the mail thousands upon thousands of dollars worth of cards to be held in a vault owned by very shady people who have been investigated by the FBI. the same owners have already lied to you about not letting any non-employee into the vault. They have also released 2 videos showing extremely unprofessional handling of "assets" and clearly thinking it was a good way to promote their business as they posted to Instagram.

    this business has also been behind a number of hobby shenanigans in the last number of years. is that the type of people you feel comfortable doing business with?

    if said business finds itself in financial or legal trouble, how safe do you think your "assets" would be? do you really think it would be just an easy email to have them returned?

    you have no idea the amount of insurance is on the contents of this vault. is any of it below ground level or is it in a flood zone? is it fireproof? what are fire procedures?

    these are all questions you have no idea the answers to. If you think you are going to call up Betsy and she will give you the straight-arrow answer, you are absolutely kidding yourself.

    you can poke fun all you want, but going into business with that crew is the funniest thing i have heard all week.

    all u need is a client with a default judgment or any judgment against PWCC and an attorney would have 2 movers and 2 moving trucks seizing all assets with a garnishment and put everything in storage for a future Sheriff's sale within a week. By the time it gets sorted out what's PWCC and what's the clients assets to satisfy the judgment, your cards could be all misplaced, mishandled and tied up in litigation for years and stored in a moldy storage facility.

    Duly noted. Also, lightning could strike the building and start a fire. An airplane could also crash into the building. Some lunatic freak could claim the building as an 'autonomous zone'. I get it, I get it

    Maybe it is not so much about the vault but the people who own and run it which is the real question. If you had $2 million would you trust Brent and his wife with that money? That is the real?

    As I've previously mentioned, I'm not planning on storing my cards in the Vault for an extended period of time. I'm sending them there to sell at auctions over the next few months. I've done VERY well selling cards via PWCC auctions. And with the cards already curated in the Vault, selling at auction will be very easy.

    Conspiracy theorists and doomsday scenario enthusiasts be damned!

    Betsy, is that you?

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • billwaltonsbeardbillwaltonsbeard Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:

    @billwaltonsbeard said:

    @KendallCat said:

    @billwaltonsbeard said:

    @lawyer05 said:

    @craig44 said:

    @billwaltonsbeard said:

    @craig44 said:
    ^^^^this

    I really believe the best/safest option is to purchase a large "fireproof" firearm safe. then build a small room around said safe lined with gypsum board to further help with the fire rating. purchase an exterior metal door to access the "safe" room and mount small blink security cameras on both the inside and outside of the safe room. those cameras record to the cloud and will also alert you to changes in temperature.

    I’m really not sure if you’re being serious enough about the security of your collection. I don’t know anything about your construction skills, but I’m assuming you may need to hire a contractor to help you build your fortress. Don’t forget to conduct a thorough background check on the contractor and anyone else involved in the process. Running a check on their family members should also be considered.

    Also, have you considered booby traps? You could install a couple of hidden snake pits. Or, depending on the value of your collection, you could set out some trip-wire IEDs.

    Perhaps a moat surrounding the structure would be the best option. I recommend filling the moat with a dozen great white sharks. I know, piranha is the most popular choice for homemade moats, but they’re so cliché. Let’s be pioneers here!!

    hey man, you are the one advocating shipping through the mail thousands upon thousands of dollars worth of cards to be held in a vault owned by very shady people who have been investigated by the FBI. the same owners have already lied to you about not letting any non-employee into the vault. They have also released 2 videos showing extremely unprofessional handling of "assets" and clearly thinking it was a good way to promote their business as they posted to Instagram.

    this business has also been behind a number of hobby shenanigans in the last number of years. is that the type of people you feel comfortable doing business with?

    if said business finds itself in financial or legal trouble, how safe do you think your "assets" would be? do you really think it would be just an easy email to have them returned?

    you have no idea the amount of insurance is on the contents of this vault. is any of it below ground level or is it in a flood zone? is it fireproof? what are fire procedures?

    these are all questions you have no idea the answers to. If you think you are going to call up Betsy and she will give you the straight-arrow answer, you are absolutely kidding yourself.

    you can poke fun all you want, but going into business with that crew is the funniest thing i have heard all week.

    all u need is a client with a default judgment or any judgment against PWCC and an attorney would have 2 movers and 2 moving trucks seizing all assets with a garnishment and put everything in storage for a future Sheriff's sale within a week. By the time it gets sorted out what's PWCC and what's the clients assets to satisfy the judgment, your cards could be all misplaced, mishandled and tied up in litigation for years and stored in a moldy storage facility.

    Duly noted. Also, lightning could strike the building and start a fire. An airplane could also crash into the building. Some lunatic freak could claim the building as an 'autonomous zone'. I get it, I get it

    Maybe it is not so much about the vault but the people who own and run it which is the real question. If you had $2 million would you trust Brent and his wife with that money? That is the real?

    As I've previously mentioned, I'm not planning on storing my cards in the Vault for an extended period of time. I'm sending them there to sell at auctions over the next few months. I've done VERY well selling cards via PWCC auctions. And with the cards already curated in the Vault, selling at auction will be very easy.

    Conspiracy theorists and doomsday scenario enthusiasts be damned!

    Betsy, is that you?

    Seek help, bro. And please post pics of your fortress when you're done!

  • I'm a collector that has happened to make a killing investing in my cards, so I agree wholeheartedly with wanting to look at and enjoy my cards. If I did this strictly for investment purposes, I'd probably sell right now with prices being what they are. But the idea of sending them to a 3rd party to "hold for me" is just nuts. The fact that PWCC does have a suspicious pass would only add to the anxiety. Regardless, I wouldn't send my cards to ANY 3rd party to hold for me. The video is a train wreck and I do find it unbelievably irresponsible that they wanted that video out there. Some douchebag employee that handles cards like that is totally absurd. It did sound like he was with the person who owned that collection and he wasn't putting up a big fuss.

    All that being said, I too have the happy problem of having a collection that is now worth more than my house. I have no intention of storing them anywhere but my home office, but feel I need to look into insurance. Can anyone recommend a. 3rd party insurer that might specialize in collectibles? Thank you!

  • BatpigBatpig Posts: 460 ✭✭✭

    @TGwynnCollector said:
    I'm a collector that has happened to make a killing investing in my cards, so I agree wholeheartedly with wanting to look at and enjoy my cards. If I did this strictly for investment purposes, I'd probably sell right now with prices being what they are. But the idea of sending them to a 3rd party to "hold for me" is just nuts. The fact that PWCC does have a suspicious pass would only add to the anxiety. Regardless, I wouldn't send my cards to ANY 3rd party to hold for me. The video is a train wreck and I do find it unbelievably irresponsible that they wanted that video out there. Some douchebag employee that handles cards like that is totally absurd. It did sound like he was with the person who owned that collection and he wasn't putting up a big fuss.

    All that being said, I too have the happy problem of having a collection that is now worth more than my house. I have no intention of storing them anywhere but my home office, but feel I need to look into insurance. Can anyone recommend a. 3rd party insurer that might specialize in collectibles? Thank you!

    I’ve seen collectinsure mentioned multiple times on here.

  • fergie23fergie23 Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭✭

    One of the biggest issues with insurance is that you will not be able to replace your collection for the amount you get from insurance, even it it exactly matches the market value when your cards are lost/stolen/destroyed. The reason is that it takes time to buy back a collection/group of cards and card prices (especially for nice cards) inevitably increase over time. I know this from personal experience, 4-5 years ago I had about 2 dozen cards bump from 9 to 10 via PSA review. I sold the majority of the 10s with the idea I would buy back 9s and keep all the profit. To this day I am still missing 1 card because only 2 copies of the card in the condition I wanted (PSA 9) have sold on eBay in the last 4-5 years and I was the underbidder both times. To top it off, because of how long it took to find replacements in PSA 9, I actually spent more buying back the cards I sold than I made selling them as PSA 10s in the first place. My new rule is that I buy the PSA 9 replacement card first and then sell the 10.

    Robb

  • 80sOPC80sOPC Posts: 1,356 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This insurance problem, IMO, is heightened by storing with a third party and using their insurance. Lots of bickering in this thread but the vault is only as secure as they make it and I’ll take my insurer over theirs any day of the week.

    I think your cards are safe there, but for me, I would have two policies out. I actually think default / theft at the vault is more likely or same likelihood as fire/ theft at my personal residence. So it comes down to insurance and I would not trust their carrier more then my own.

    All that said, this is one of those good problems to have, I’m jealous and your cards will be safe.

    @fergie23 said:
    One of the biggest issues with insurance is that you will not be able to replace your collection for the amount you get from insurance, even it it exactly matches the market value when your cards are lost/stolen/destroyed. The reason is that it takes time to buy back a collection/group of cards and card prices (especially for nice cards) inevitably increase over time. I know this from personal experience, 4-5 years ago I had about 2 dozen cards bump from 9 to 10 via PSA review. I sold the majority of the 10s with the idea I would buy back 9s and keep all the profit. To this day I am still missing 1 card because only 2 copies of the card in the condition I wanted (PSA 9) have sold on eBay in the last 4-5 years and I was the underbidder both times. To top it off, because of how long it took to find replacements in PSA 9, I actually spent more buying back the cards I sold than I made selling them as PSA 10s in the first place. My new rule is that I buy the PSA 9 replacement card first and then sell the 10.

    Robb

  • fergie23fergie23 Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭✭

    80sOPC,
    Yeah, I am not concerned about my cards at all at the Vault. Burglary or loss via disaster was much more likely at my house than any of the scenarios bandied about for the PWCC Vault in this thread.

    I am not sure what a 3rd party insurer would charge for insuring cards stored at a location like the PWCC vault. Probably similar to works of art loaned out to a museum. I don't plan to investigate as I think the concerns in this thread are way overblown.

    Robb

  • daltexdaltex Posts: 3,486 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @fergie23 said:
    One of the biggest issues with insurance is that you will not be able to replace your collection for the amount you get from insurance, even it it exactly matches the market value when your cards are lost/stolen/destroyed. The reason is that it takes time to buy back a collection/group of cards and card prices (especially for nice cards) inevitably increase over time. I know this from personal experience, 4-5 years ago I had about 2 dozen cards bump from 9 to 10 via PSA review. I sold the majority of the 10s with the idea I would buy back 9s and keep all the profit. To this day I am still missing 1 card because only 2 copies of the card in the condition I wanted (PSA 9) have sold on eBay in the last 4-5 years and I was the underbidder both times. To top it off, because of how long it took to find replacements in PSA 9, I actually spent more buying back the cards I sold than I made selling them as PSA 10s in the first place. My new rule is that I buy the PSA 9 replacement card first and then sell the 10.

    Robb

    I agree, but it is a problem with all kinds of insurance. If you get $1,000,000 from dismemberment insurance, it won't buy you another hand. Insurance is an imperfect substitute, but it's the best anyone can possibly do.

  • miwlvrnmiwlvrn Posts: 4,264 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Do vault items only get appraised by PWCC for value relative to insurance? Or does the owner have some influence on the declared amount too?

    When putting vault items for sale with BIN-OBO, does the owner set the listing price or does PWCC's appraisal team select it?

  • KyserKyser Posts: 213 ✭✭✭

    $35 a year for a bank box 5 minutes from my house.

  • blurryfaceblurryface Posts: 5,136 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Kyser said:
    $35 a year for a bank box 5 minutes from my house.

    definitely not promoting pwcc by this comment, but you do know that safety deposit boxes are not fdic insured, correct? you'd be surprised about how many folks don't know that or how often they are actually stolen from as well. i was shocked about the latter.

  • KyserKyser Posts: 213 ✭✭✭

    Thanks blurryface. It is worth considering. I play the what ifs in my mind all the time. With a dual key box system is theft really a concern? or just fire/flood disaster type issues?

  • weaselpuppyweaselpuppy Posts: 218 ✭✭✭

    @lawyer05 said:

    @craig44 said:

    @billwaltonsbeard said:

    @craig44 said:
    ^^^^this

    I really believe the best/safest option is to purchase a large "fireproof" firearm safe. then build a small room around said safe lined with gypsum board to further help with the fire rating. purchase an exterior metal door to access the "safe" room and mount small blink security cameras on both the inside and outside of the safe room. those cameras record to the cloud and will also alert you to changes in temperature.

    I’m really not sure if you’re being serious enough about the security of your collection. I don’t know anything about your construction skills, but I’m assuming you may need to hire a contractor to help you build your fortress. Don’t forget to conduct a thorough background check on the contractor and anyone else involved in the process. Running a check on their family members should also be considered.

    Also, have you considered booby traps? You could install a couple of hidden snake pits. Or, depending on the value of your collection, you could set out some trip-wire IEDs.

    Perhaps a moat surrounding the structure would be the best option. I recommend filling the moat with a dozen great white sharks. I know, piranha is the most popular choice for homemade moats, but they’re so cliché. Let’s be pioneers here!!

    hey man, you are the one advocating shipping through the mail thousands upon thousands of dollars worth of cards to be held in a vault owned by very shady people who have been investigated by the FBI. the same owners have already lied to you about not letting any non-employee into the vault. They have also released 2 videos showing extremely unprofessional handling of "assets" and clearly thinking it was a good way to promote their business as they posted to Instagram.

    this business has also been behind a number of hobby shenanigans in the last number of years. is that the type of people you feel comfortable doing business with?

    if said business finds itself in financial or legal trouble, how safe do you think your "assets" would be? do you really think it would be just an easy email to have them returned?

    you have no idea the amount of insurance is on the contents of this vault. is any of it below ground level or is it in a flood zone? is it fireproof? what are fire procedures?

    these are all questions you have no idea the answers to. If you think you are going to call up Betsy and she will give you the straight-arrow answer, you are absolutely kidding yourself.

    you can poke fun all you want, but going into business with that crew is the funniest thing i have heard all week.

    all u need is a client with a default judgment or any judgment against PWCC and an attorney would have 2 movers and 2 moving trucks seizing all assets with a garnishment and put everything in storage for a future Sheriff's sale within a week. By the time it gets sorted out what's PWCC and what's the clients assets to satisfy the judgment, your cards could be all misplaced, mishandled and tied up in litigation for years and stored in a moldy storage facility.

    This is for damn sure true. If they go off the rails financially, you had better hope your cards are NOT in that vault, as they will be sidelined, misunderstood, likely mishandled and for sure not available when you want them...if ever. I have written enough bank garnishments in my day to understand that Possession is 9/10 of the law was a Very Wise aphorism.

    Now, if a big, publicly traded security firm like Brinks etc were to offer vault services, I might, mayyybe look at that.

  • @craig44 said:

    @billwaltonsbeard said:

    @craig44 said:
    ^^^^this

    I really believe the best/safest option is to purchase a large "fireproof" firearm safe. then build a small room around said safe lined with gypsum board to further help with the fire rating. purchase an exterior metal door to access the "safe" room and mount small blink security cameras on both the inside and outside of the safe room. those cameras record to the cloud and will also alert you to changes in temperature.

    I’m really not sure if you’re being serious enough about the security of your collection. I don’t know anything about your construction skills, but I’m assuming you may need to hire a contractor to help you build your fortress. Don’t forget to conduct a thorough background check on the contractor and anyone else involved in the process. Running a check on their family members should also be considered.

    Also, have you considered booby traps? You could install a couple of hidden snake pits. Or, depending on the value of your collection, you could set out some trip-wire IEDs.

    Perhaps a moat surrounding the structure would be the best option. I recommend filling the moat with a dozen great white sharks. I know, piranha is the most popular choice for homemade moats, but they’re so cliché. Let’s be pioneers here!!

    hey man, you are the one advocating shipping through the mail thousands upon thousands of dollars worth of cards to be held in a vault owned by very shady people who have been investigated by the FBI. the same owners have already lied to you about not letting any non-employee into the vault. They have also released 2 videos showing extremely unprofessional handling of "assets" and clearly thinking it was a good way to promote their business as they posted to Instagram.

    this business has also been behind a number of hobby shenanigans in the last number of years. is that the type of people you feel comfortable doing business with?

    if said business finds itself in financial or legal trouble, how safe do you think your "assets" would be? do you really think it would be just an easy email to have them returned?

    you have no idea the amount of insurance is on the contents of this vault. is any of it below ground level or is it in a flood zone? is it fireproof? what are fire procedures?

    these are all questions you have no idea the answers to. If you think you are going to call up Betsy and she will give you the straight-arrow answer, you are absolutely kidding yourself.

    you can poke fun all you want, but going into business with that crew is the funniest thing i have heard all week.

    @fergie23 said:
    One of the biggest issues with insurance is that you will not be able to replace your collection for the amount you get from insurance, even it it exactly matches the market value when your cards are lost/stolen/destroyed. The reason is that it takes time to buy back a collection/group of cards and card prices (especially for nice cards) inevitably increase over time. I know this from personal experience, 4-5 years ago I had about 2 dozen cards bump from 9 to 10 via PSA review. I sold the majority of the 10s with the idea I would buy back 9s and keep all the profit. To this day I am still missing 1 card because only 2 copies of the card in the condition I wanted (PSA 9) have sold on eBay in the last 4-5 years and I was the underbidder both times. To top it off, because of how long it took to find replacements in PSA 9, I actually spent more buying back the cards I sold than I made selling them as PSA 10s in the first place. My new rule is that I
    Robb

    FOR SURE ! buy the PSA 9 replacement card first and then sell the 10.

  • Copyboy1Copyboy1 Posts: 479 ✭✭✭✭

    I poked around their site - do they have ANY details about their insurance, if they're bonded, etc.? I see some surface messaging about it, but no details at all.

  • gemintgemint Posts: 6,101 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Watching that video gave me flashbacks to Mr. Mint visiting the home of a long time collector to make an offer to purchase his collection. He gets handed a vintage game worn jersey and Rosen carelessly tosses it on the ground in a pool of oil.

  • blurryfaceblurryface Posts: 5,136 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Kyser said:
    Thanks blurryface. It is worth considering. I play the what ifs in my mind all the time. With a dual key box system is theft really a concern? or just fire/flood disaster type issues?

    theft seems to be a MUCH bigger concern than fire or flood. most of the times the theft is in direct relation to the branch manager and a outside locksmith. and almost 10/10 times its only money or jewelry that is reported stolen. i was shocked to know after reading an article and actually inquiring to my own local branch (wellsfargo) that just my local branch, exact place where i had my cards, had 3 reports of stolen or tampered with safety deposit boxes within the last fiscal year.

    the tampered ones, i just assume were reported bc it might not of been something they wanted to admit of owning or being stolen. but yes, they are legally required to tell you if asked.

    the one i moved them to had 1. and while the odds are quite rare, i was still shocked to learn that really anything other than some major bank heist occurs on a pretty frequent basis.

  • Mickey71Mickey71 Posts: 4,252 ✭✭✭✭

    @blurryface said:

    @Kyser said:
    Thanks blurryface. It is worth considering. I play the what ifs in my mind all the time. With a dual key box system is theft really a concern? or just fire/flood disaster type issues?

    theft seems to be a MUCH bigger concern than fire or flood. most of the times the theft is in direct relation to the branch manager and a outside locksmith. and almost 10/10 times its only money or jewelry that is reported stolen. i was shocked to know after reading an article and actually inquiring to my own local branch (wellsfargo) that just my local branch, exact place where i had my cards, had 3 reports of stolen or tampered with safety deposit boxes within the last fiscal year.

    the tampered ones, i just assume were reported bc it might not of been something they wanted to admit of owning or being stolen. but yes, they are legally required to tell you if asked.

    the one i moved them to had 1. and while the odds are quite rare, i was still shocked to learn that really anything other than some major bank heist occurs on a pretty frequent basis.

    I totally agree with everything except 1 thing.....I bet they wouldn't tell you about theft if you asked them. Also, rarely do you speak to the branch manager. If you asked a normal employee, I'm assuming they wouldn't know. Plus if the manager is a crook, what good would asking him anything pertaining to theft as he would say no theft and then steal your stuff. Am I way off base here??

  • blurryfaceblurryface Posts: 5,136 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Mickey71 said:

    @blurryface said:

    @Kyser said:
    Thanks blurryface. It is worth considering. I play the what ifs in my mind all the time. With a dual key box system is theft really a concern? or just fire/flood disaster type issues?

    theft seems to be a MUCH bigger concern than fire or flood. most of the times the theft is in direct relation to the branch manager and a outside locksmith. and almost 10/10 times its only money or jewelry that is reported stolen. i was shocked to know after reading an article and actually inquiring to my own local branch (wellsfargo) that just my local branch, exact place where i had my cards, had 3 reports of stolen or tampered with safety deposit boxes within the last fiscal year.

    the tampered ones, i just assume were reported bc it might not of been something they wanted to admit of owning or being stolen. but yes, they are legally required to tell you if asked.

    the one i moved them to had 1. and while the odds are quite rare, i was still shocked to learn that really anything other than some major bank heist occurs on a pretty frequent basis.

    I totally agree with everything except 1 thing.....I bet they wouldn't tell you about theft if you asked them. Also, rarely do you speak to the branch manager. If you asked a normal employee, I'm assuming they wouldn't know. Plus if the manager is a crook, what good would asking him anything pertaining to theft as he would say no theft and then steal your stuff. Am I way off base here??

    because per federal regulations they have to disclose it to you. they obviously can not give you any details, dates, parties involved or what was stolen.

  • Mickey71Mickey71 Posts: 4,252 ✭✭✭✭

    @blurryface said:

    @Mickey71 said:

    @blurryface said:

    @Kyser said:
    Thanks blurryface. It is worth considering. I play the what ifs in my mind all the time. With a dual key box system is theft really a concern? or just fire/flood disaster type issues?

    theft seems to be a MUCH bigger concern than fire or flood. most of the times the theft is in direct relation to the branch manager and a outside locksmith. and almost 10/10 times its only money or jewelry that is reported stolen. i was shocked to know after reading an article and actually inquiring to my own local branch (wellsfargo) that just my local branch, exact place where i had my cards, had 3 reports of stolen or tampered with safety deposit boxes within the last fiscal year.

    the tampered ones, i just assume were reported bc it might not of been something they wanted to admit of owning or being stolen. but yes, they are legally required to tell you if asked.

    the one i moved them to had 1. and while the odds are quite rare, i was still shocked to learn that really anything other than some major bank heist occurs on a pretty frequent basis.

    I totally agree with everything except 1 thing.....I bet they wouldn't tell you about theft if you asked them. Also, rarely do you speak to the branch manager. If you asked a normal employee, I'm assuming they wouldn't know. Plus if the manager is a crook, what good would asking him anything pertaining to theft as he would say no theft and then steal your stuff. Am I way off base here??

    because per federal regulations they have to disclose it to you. they obviously can not give you any details, dates, parties involved or what was stolen.

    Blurry,
    If they are crooks, they will simply lie right? I mean you would ask and they would say no. No paperwork or anything on the question. Crooks don't follow rules and regulations. That's why they're crooks.

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