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HELP WITH 1861 CSA RESTRIKE B-8008 PROOF 67 COPPER POP 1 WITH 1 HIGHER OR NOT???

Anyone out there an authority on these? Got this back from NGC, and want to make sure label is correct as this would be POP1 with 1 better....seems 8008 is rare?? To me looks like common restrike......
Thanks for looking....




Comments

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,430 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It is not really a restrike. It was a piece that was made and issued by a fellow named Robert Broeslow. He took the canceled Confederate Cents dies and made copy dies from them. These pieces were made in numerous metals and sold circa 1961. The pieces in copper at the most common.

    Time was these pieces sold for very low prices, but over the last 20 years I've seen prices like $35 for raw ones.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,301 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones said:
    It is not really a restrike. It was a piece that was made and issued by a fellow named Robert Broeslow. He took the canceled Confederate Cents dies and made copy dies from them. These pieces were made in numerous metals and sold circa 1961. The pieces in copper at the most common.

    Time was these pieces sold for very low prices, but over the last 20 years I've seen prices like $35 for raw ones.

    They were made by Robert Bashlow.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,430 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thank you, @PerryHall! I could not remember his name exactly.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2021 8:56AM

    @PerryHall said:

    @BillJones said:
    It is not really a restrike. It was a piece that was made and issued by a fellow named Robert Broeslow. He took the canceled Confederate Cents dies and made copy dies from them. These pieces were made in numerous metals and sold circa 1961. The pieces in copper at the most common.

    Time was these pieces sold for very low prices, but over the last 20 years I've seen prices like $35 for raw ones.

    They were made by Robert Bashlow.

    They were actually made by August Conrad Frank via an order from Robert Bashlow and it seems Bashlow never fully paid Frank for his services. It seems like these were issued by both Bashlow initially and Frank later, after Bashlow stopped paying him.

    Bashlow brought the original dies to Frank, who hobbed the dies to create a new set of dies, similar to how the US Mint created working dies from master dies.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2021 9:13AM

    What is "B-8008"? Is it a variety or common strike?

    Here's a common PCGS MS67RD which is PCGS POP 22/1. The highest graded PCGS coin is PCGS MS68RD POP 1/0.

    Here's the pop report:

    https://www.pcgs.com/pop/detail/confederate-states-america-1861-1863/920?sn=527916&p=MS&g=67&ccid=920

  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,643 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2021 9:12AM

    What is up with the PF designation? Shouldn't it be MS?

    And what is the B-8008 designation? I don't see any others on ebay with this text.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    NGC's CoinExplorer shows that B-8008 is a restrike from non-defaced dies:

  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,643 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2021 9:27AM

    @BillJones said:
    Time was these pieces sold for very low prices, but over the last 20 years I've seen prices like $35 for raw ones.

    I used to chase these on ebay about 20 years ago and I would go as high as $20 or $25 but they have steadily climbed in value since then.

    Right now on ebay most are slabbed and they sell for over (sometimes well over) $100. There is an outlier or two in the $75 range, but $35 seems to be a distant memory.

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,430 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2021 9:36AM

    I paid $6 for one in the late 1970s. There was an African-American dealer, John Meeks, in New Jersey, who must have 20 or 30 of them in his lose leaf coin albums.

    It is interesting to note that "The Red Book" stated that these pieces were not worth very much years ago.


    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,368 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2021 9:29AM
  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,643 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2021 9:30AM

    I recall Littleton marketing these in their mailings back in the 70s. Wish I had picked some up back then when they were cheaper.

    I picked up a few coppers and a goldine 15 or 20 years ago but never did find a silver I was willing to pay for.

    I also picked up a tin (50 struck) for $36 but that is another story...

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,301 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    Bashlow brought the original dies to Frank, who hobbed the dies to create a new set of dies, similar to how the US Mint created working dies from master dies.

    I think you meant hubbed. ;)

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • MWallaceMWallace Posts: 3,832 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Probably a ""Mechanical"" error, which seems to be happening more often lately across all TPG's.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2021 9:44AM

    @PerryHall said:

    @Zoins said:

    Bashlow brought the original dies to Frank, who hobbed the dies to create a new set of dies, similar to how the US Mint created working dies from master dies.

    I think you meant hubbed. ;)

    Actually, I meant hobbed ;)

    See MintIndustry.com's page on the Art & Science of Coin‑making

    https://www.mintindustry.com/information-hub/coin-making/art-science-of-coin-making/

    The reduction die is then placed in a hydraulic press, where the design is transferred onto a softened steel block using 100 to 400 tonnes of pressure. This process is called hobbing. The result is a master die, containing a negative impression of the coin design.

    There's a photo of the Confederate Cent dies that have Frank's name stamped on the shank. I believe it says "hobbed" but I can't find the photos now.

  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,643 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:
    NGC's CoinExplorer shows that B-8008 is a restrike from non-defaced dies:

    Thx. That explains it.

    As @MWallace suggested, a mechanical error, then.

  • ChangeInHistoryChangeInHistory Posts: 3,004 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Bought this years ago from a local dealer who recently passed away. Paid around 35-40.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:
    NGC's CoinExplorer shows that B-8008 is a restrike from non-defaced dies:

    Somebody's pooch is walking funny!

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Verno said:
    Anyone out there an authority on these? Got this back from NGC, and want to make sure label is correct as this would be POP1 with 1 better....seems 8008 is rare?? To me looks like common restrike......
    Thanks for looking....




    to answer your question, no, the label is not correct. It was mis-attributed as one of the 19th Century restrikes from the original dies. It is actually one of the 20th century strikes from copy dies transferred from the original dies.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • VernoVerno Posts: 325 ✭✭✭

    As I figured....wow that is a big miss for those guys.... RJ

  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,643 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Verno said:
    As I figured....wow that is a big miss for those guys.... RJ

    Yes, it is quite an embarrassment for them.

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