@cameonut2011 said:
I should give CAC credit - this coin and the 1804 Dexter $1 have both very likely been to CAC and CAC has been consistent in not stickering either even though I have no doubt JA would make an offer if offered either coin.
I would wager JA wouldn’t care at all about the D if the coin were properly graded. I’ll have to ask him
@cameonut2011 said:
The provenance adds to the value. The graffiti detracts IMHO. Will the latter overcome the former? I also do not think it should be in a PF68 holder with PMD even if it is limited to the edge. I also do not think the Dexter 1804 should be given a free pass because of rarity and provenance. Both are spectacular and important coins, but that should not be the basis for leniency in the grading room.
.
This. The provenance is the key in my eyes to determining increased/decreased value vs. the graffiti. As a historian, I personally believe it is worth more if it can be proven to tie directly to ASG, even with the etching. For me, that aspect only increases my interest. However, I know a lot of collectors in many other fields I participate in do not want alterations of any kind on the pieces they collect. I suppose it goes back to "beauty (and value) is in the eye of the beholder"
Also, I have to agree with @cameonut2011 that the graffiti ought to be accounted for in relation to the grade assigned regardless of the importance of any coin. Just my 2 cents.
Me: Question - if the Dexter 1804 were properly graded, would you sticker it even with the D stamp? Does it even affect the grade one bit?
JA: The D is nearly invisible and I would have thought is was a microscopic Lint Mark if I didn’t know it was there. It has zero bearing on the grade , and yes, the historic element is an important factor
My opinion on the ASG is that it’s a slight net positive. The provenance adder overwhelms the damage aspect of the initials. I’d feel differently if they were inscribed in the field, however.
@tradedollarnut said:
Me: Question - if the Dexter 1804 were properly graded, would you sticker it even with the D stamp? Does it even affect the grade one bit?
JA: The D is nearly invisible and I would have thought is was a microscopic Lint Mark if I didn’t know it was there. It has zero bearing on the grade, and yes, the historic element is an important factor
I'd love to have CACed coins with my initial. It would be a such great legacy!
Get a CACed coin, add initial, and get it regraded / reCACed.
If you can't tell, I'm being serious. It's neat idea. If JA will support it, hopefully PCGS will too.
The only issue with adding a single letter for a legacy is the potential for confusion. For example, James V. Dexter is getting the fame for this coin, even though the initial was added by William F. Dunham.
With coins like this, there will be people that value it more and people who value it less. You only need 2 people to value it more for it to be valued more.
In my opinion the value should not be different. If someone likes it bid more or less if they don't like it just like any other facet of the coin.
But I do object to the coin not being labeled differently.
The label should state Damaged or Graffiti as it is graffiti.
We don't engrave coins whether they are ours or not like an artist signs a painting.
Again in this case.....or actually any case of graffiti .... the value is determined by the buyer and seller.
A Love Token engraving for example may increase the value of a coin but can not or should not be labeled
by a TPG as if nothing was engraved into the coin.
@tradedollarnut said:
But it is labeled differently. Just like a trade dollar with chop marks - it’s disclosed on the label.
Point taken and totally understood. The question remaining is that this is possibly worded on the label a little
differently than other coins that have initials engraved into them. And yes I understand that this may just be playing with semantics hence my thoughts that it doesn't effect the value of the coin up or down. Consistency is a good thing for a TPGC.
@Zoins said:
With coins like this, there will be people that value it more and people who value it less. You only need 2 people to value it more for it to be valued more.
This was my first thought as well but is actually wrong (or more accurately incomplete). You need two people with the ability and desire to own the coin to value it more for this to be true. If my dog and I place a higher value on it, I promise you it would not impact the sales price, and she is an aggressive bidder.
I sold a Brenner Lincoln medal several years ago with an edge inscription to someone whose initials I was never able to identify, signed "VDB". I did very well with it. The coin in question is out of my league, but if that weren't the case I would probably pay a premium of at least 10-20% for the provenance, If supported.
@Zoins said:
With coins like this, there will be people that value it more and people who value it less. You only need 2 people to value it more for it to be valued more.
This was my first thought as well but is actually wrong (or more accurately incomplete). You need two people with the ability and desire to own the coin to value it more for this to be true. If my dog and I place a higher value on it, I promise you it would not impact the sales price, and she is an aggressive bidder.
Worth more than, less than, or the same as what? All the other 1907 UHR $20s in PCGS PR68 that have sold recently?
I would imagine that the infrequency of appearances of these for sale as well as the provenance of this particular one will make up for the fact that there is graffiti on the edge of the coin when it comes to people who want one deciding to go for it or pass. Were it actually owned by Augustus and had he been the one to initial it, the answer would be an easy "more."
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
Are you just taking it on faith that ASG carved his initials on this coin? If so, I have a 1795 large cent that George Washington carved his initials on that I'll sell you.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Are you just taking it on faith that ASG carved his initials on this coin? If so, I have a 1795 large cent that George Washington carved his initials on that I'll sell you.
Unless I misconstrued it, the auction lot description indicates that the initials could not have been carved by him. But rather, they were carved by (or perhaps for) his widow.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Are you just taking it on faith that ASG carved his initials on this coin? If so, I have a 1795 large cent that George Washington carved his initials on that I'll sell you.
Unless I misconstrued it, the auction lot description indicates that the initials could not have been carved by him. But rather, they were carved by (or perhaps for) his widow.
Without some documentation, I have to assume it's nothing more than conjecture and auction hype.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Are you just taking it on faith that ASG carved his initials on this coin? If so, I have a 1795 large cent that George Washington carved his initials on that I'll sell you.
Unless I misconstrued it, the auction lot description indicates that the initials could not have been carved by him. But rather, they were carved by (or perhaps for) his widow.
Without some documentation, I have to assume it's nothing more than conjecture and auction hype.
Did you read the entire description? It’s documented fact, not hype, that Mrs. S.G. owned the coin. And if you think it’s hype that the initials were carved by or for her, by what other means do you think they could have gotten there? 😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Are you just taking it on faith that ASG carved his initials on this coin? If so, I have a 1795 large cent that George Washington carved his initials on that I'll sell you.
Unless I misconstrued it, the auction lot description indicates that the initials could not have been carved by him. But rather, they were carved by (or perhaps for) his widow.
Without some documentation, I have to assume it's nothing more than conjecture and auction hype.
Did you read the entire description? It’s documented fact, not hype, that Mrs. S.G. owned the coin. And if you think it’s hype that the initials were carved by or for her, by what other means do you think they could have gotten there? 😉
I read the description and I know that Mrs. SG owned the coin but without a letter or note there is no documentation as to who carved ASG into the coin or when it happened. It could have happened after her death by a relative or the executor of her estate.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Are you just taking it on faith that ASG carved his initials on this coin? If so, I have a 1795 large cent that George Washington carved his initials on that I'll sell you.
Unless I misconstrued it, the auction lot description indicates that the initials could not have been carved by him. But rather, they were carved by (or perhaps for) his widow.
Without some documentation, I have to assume it's nothing more than conjecture and auction hype.
Did you read the entire description? It’s documented fact, not hype, that Mrs. S.G. owned the coin. And if you think it’s hype that the initials were carved by or for her, by what other means do you think they could have gotten there? 😉
I read the description and I know that Mrs. SG owned the coin but without a letter or note there is no documentation as to who carved ASG into the coin or when it happened. It could have happened after her death by a relative or the executor of her estate.
Fair enough. So where’s the hype? As long as the coin can be traced to her, the rest is secondary. Some think that the initials are a plus, while others think they’re a negative and still others think they have no effect.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@PerryHall said:
Since when does graffiti increase the value of any rare coin? There's no proof as to who added this graffiti.
Depends on how you define "rare", there are tons of examples of graffiti increasing the value of a coin. This is especially true if the graffiti was done period to the piece, and if it makes the coin more interesting. Think about hobo nickels and love tokens.
I discovered some cool edge carving on a half cent I bought at a pawn shop. It would take more than the going rate of a similar grade half cent without the carving to get that away from me.
The fact that we are talking about the edge graffiti on this St. Gaudens is proof it adds interest to the coin. That interest will likely translate to more valuable at auction.
Here is a picture of the edge graffiti on my half cent.
@Broadstruck said:
PMD... Post Mint Damage & should be in a PCGS Detail holder for Graffiti
Agreed. How on earth does a PMD coin make it in a straight graded holder? That one should have been 98'd. Less, much less to answer the OPs question.
It's part of PCGS Policy to straight-grade certain coins like this "as a service to the collecting community". I saw that, or similar, text in their grading brochure.
@Broadstruck said:
PMD... Post Mint Damage & should be in a PCGS Detail holder for Graffiti
Agreed. How on earth does a PMD coin make it in a straight graded holder? That one should have been 98'd. Less, much less to answer the OPs question.
It's part of PCGS Policy to straight-grade certain coins like this "as a service to the collecting community". I saw that, or similar, text in their grading brochure.
FWIW, the price realized completely validates that policy.
Is this clearly an example of special policy? Wouldn't less rare coins (e.g., 1795 Bust Dollar in AU58) straight grade with a similar degree of edge graffiti?
If Leonardo Da Vincis spouse owned a painting and it was clearly attributed to the family and she scrawled her initials into it or had someone do it, collectors and museums would climb all over each other to buy it at a premium.
Augustus St Gaudens is not Da Vinci but he is one of the "master" designers of US coinage.
Its a double standard in my opinion. Any intentional markings should be identified as damaged or graffiti with a Details identification.
98 – Damage.
Damage is a very broad group encompassing a wide variety of ills. Generally it describes any form of metal movement, either intentional or accidental. Damage may include excessive or heavy rim dings and bruises, deliberate surface damage such as graffiti, attempts to remove spots, etc. The severity and extent of the damage affects whether it will get a "No Grade" decision.
Are you just taking it on faith that ASG carved his initials on this coin? If so, I have a 1795 large cent that George Washington carved his initials on that I'll sell you.
Unless I misconstrued it, the auction lot description indicates that the initials could not have been carved by him. But rather, they were carved by (or perhaps for) his widow.
Then the historical element of the graffiti is lost and it should be in a PF details holder, no?
Are you just taking it on faith that ASG carved his initials on this coin? If so, I have a 1795 large cent that George Washington carved his initials on that I'll sell you.
Unless I misconstrued it, the auction lot description indicates that the initials could not have been carved by him. But rather, they were carved by (or perhaps for) his widow.
Then the historical element of the graffiti is lost and it should be in a PF details holder, no?
@Broadstruck said:
PMD... Post Mint Damage & should be in a PCGS Detail holder for Graffiti
Agreed. How on earth does a PMD coin make it in a straight graded holder? That one should have been 98'd. Less, much less to answer the OPs question.
It's part of PCGS Policy to straight-grade certain coins like this "as a service to the collecting community". I saw that, or similar, text in their grading brochure.
FWIW, the price realized completely validates that policy.
Only if you subscribe to the belief that coin graders are professional appraisers instead of truly grading coins based on their physical attributes rather than trying to price them.
Are you just taking it on faith that ASG carved his initials on this coin? If so, I have a 1795 large cent that George Washington carved his initials on that I'll sell you.
Unless I misconstrued it, the auction lot description indicates that the initials could not have been carved by him. But rather, they were carved by (or perhaps for) his widow.
Then the historical element of the graffiti is lost and it should be in a PF details holder, no?
The Market™ would indicate otherwise.
I’m not sure that’s correct. If the coin had been assigned a details grade, it’s condition (other than the the carved initials) noted and everything else the same, perhaps it would have brought a similar amount.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Comments
I would wager JA wouldn’t care at all about the D if the coin were properly graded. I’ll have to ask him
.
This. The provenance is the key in my eyes to determining increased/decreased value vs. the graffiti. As a historian, I personally believe it is worth more if it can be proven to tie directly to ASG, even with the etching. For me, that aspect only increases my interest. However, I know a lot of collectors in many other fields I participate in do not want alterations of any kind on the pieces they collect. I suppose it goes back to "beauty (and value) is in the eye of the beholder"
Also, I have to agree with @cameonut2011 that the graffiti ought to be accounted for in relation to the grade assigned regardless of the importance of any coin. Just my 2 cents.
Me: Question - if the Dexter 1804 were properly graded, would you sticker it even with the D stamp? Does it even affect the grade one bit?
JA: The D is nearly invisible and I would have thought is was a microscopic Lint Mark if I didn’t know it was there. It has zero bearing on the grade , and yes, the historic element is an important factor
That was pretty fun to make
Here it is:
1804 Draped Bust Dollar - Class 1 Original - "TDN" Dollar
My opinion on the ASG is that it’s a slight net positive. The provenance adder overwhelms the damage aspect of the initials. I’d feel differently if they were inscribed in the field, however.
I mentioned I'd like it in the field better, but it would need to be executed better.
Here's another straight graded coin I love, this one from Eliasberg.
I'd love to have CACed coins with my initial. It would be a such great legacy!
Get a CACed coin, add initial, and get it regraded / reCACed.
If you can't tell, I'm being serious. It's neat idea. If JA will support it, hopefully PCGS will too.
The only issue with adding a single letter for a legacy is the potential for confusion. For example, James V. Dexter is getting the fame for this coin, even though the initial was added by William F. Dunham.
With coins like this, there will be people that value it more and people who value it less. You only need 2 people to value it more for it to be valued more.
Less, by an estimated $1.485 Million.
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
In my opinion the value should not be different. If someone likes it bid more or less if they don't like it just like any other facet of the coin.
But I do object to the coin not being labeled differently.
The label should state Damaged or Graffiti as it is graffiti.
We don't engrave coins whether they are ours or not like an artist signs a painting.
Again in this case.....or actually any case of graffiti .... the value is determined by the buyer and seller.
A Love Token engraving for example may increase the value of a coin but can not or should not be labeled
by a TPG as if nothing was engraved into the coin.
But it is labeled differently. Just like a trade dollar with chop marks - it’s disclosed on the label.
Point taken and totally understood. The question remaining is that this is possibly worded on the label a little
differently than other coins that have initials engraved into them. And yes I understand that this may just be playing with semantics hence my thoughts that it doesn't effect the value of the coin up or down. Consistency is a good thing for a TPGC.
This was my first thought as well but is actually wrong (or more accurately incomplete). You need two people with the ability and desire to own the coin to value it more for this to be true. If my dog and I place a higher value on it, I promise you it would not impact the sales price, and she is an aggressive bidder.
Whoever did the engraving, botched the "G". Pass.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I sold a Brenner Lincoln medal several years ago with an edge inscription to someone whose initials I was never able to identify, signed "VDB". I did very well with it. The coin in question is out of my league, but if that weren't the case I would probably pay a premium of at least 10-20% for the provenance, If supported.
Yes, I was meaning people willing and able
Holy crap!
putty over it then auction.
only then will we know.
Would have been better without IMO
Worth more than, less than, or the same as what? All the other 1907 UHR $20s in PCGS PR68 that have sold recently?
I would imagine that the infrequency of appearances of these for sale as well as the provenance of this particular one will make up for the fact that there is graffiti on the edge of the coin when it comes to people who want one deciding to go for it or pass. Were it actually owned by Augustus and had he been the one to initial it, the answer would be an easy "more."
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
To me, worth more.
Are you just taking it on faith that ASG carved his initials on this coin? If so, I have a 1795 large cent that George Washington carved his initials on that I'll sell you.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Akin to chop marks?
Unless I misconstrued it, the auction lot description indicates that the initials could not have been carved by him. But rather, they were carved by (or perhaps for) his widow.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Without some documentation, I have to assume it's nothing more than conjecture and auction hype.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Did you read the entire description? It’s documented fact, not hype, that Mrs. S.G. owned the coin. And if you think it’s hype that the initials were carved by or for her, by what other means do you think they could have gotten there? 😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It was aliens!
I read the description and I know that Mrs. SG owned the coin but without a letter or note there is no documentation as to who carved ASG into the coin or when it happened. It could have happened after her death by a relative or the executor of her estate.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Fair enough. So where’s the hype? As long as the coin can be traced to her, the rest is secondary. Some think that the initials are a plus, while others think they’re a negative and still others think they have no effect.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Depends on how you define "rare", there are tons of examples of graffiti increasing the value of a coin. This is especially true if the graffiti was done period to the piece, and if it makes the coin more interesting. Think about hobo nickels and love tokens.
I discovered some cool edge carving on a half cent I bought at a pawn shop. It would take more than the going rate of a similar grade half cent without the carving to get that away from me.
The fact that we are talking about the edge graffiti on this St. Gaudens is proof it adds interest to the coin. That interest will likely translate to more valuable at auction.
Here is a picture of the edge graffiti on my half cent.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
That's cool! Thanks for posting it
Agreed. How on earth does a PMD coin make it in a straight graded holder? That one should have been 98'd. Less, much less to answer the OPs question.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
@Tomthecoinguy I don't consider hobo nickels and love tokens to be graffiti.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
It's part of PCGS Policy to straight-grade certain coins like this "as a service to the collecting community". I saw that, or similar, text in their grading brochure.
FWIW, the price realized completely validates that policy.
Is this clearly an example of special policy? Wouldn't less rare coins (e.g., 1795 Bust Dollar in AU58) straight grade with a similar degree of edge graffiti?
If Leonardo Da Vincis spouse owned a painting and it was clearly attributed to the family and she scrawled her initials into it or had someone do it, collectors and museums would climb all over each other to buy it at a premium.
Augustus St Gaudens is not Da Vinci but he is one of the "master" designers of US coinage.
Tradedollarnut asks:
Is this coin worth more, less or the same...
My answer: Answer changes depending on the day of the week.
You feel this is a 3-4 million dollar coin without the initials?
Wellllll, it might be these days. But not then. World record price was $2.9M for the 69.
Yes I agree and more early strikes would show these polish lines but they might be hard to see without coin in hand.
Its a double standard in my opinion. Any intentional markings should be identified as damaged or graffiti with a Details identification.
98 – Damage.
Damage is a very broad group encompassing a wide variety of ills. Generally it describes any form of metal movement, either intentional or accidental. Damage may include excessive or heavy rim dings and bruises, deliberate surface damage such as graffiti, attempts to remove spots, etc. The severity and extent of the damage affects whether it will get a "No Grade" decision.
https://www.pcgs.com/news/no-grade-coins-pt8
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
Then the historical element of the graffiti is lost and it should be in a PF details holder, no?
The Market™ would indicate otherwise.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
An NGC PF68 w/o CAC fetched $3.6 million 02/25/21. I wonder what the 69 is worth today.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/proof-high-relief-double-eagles/1907-20-ultra-high-relief-normal-edge-lettering-pr68-ngc-jd-3-low-r7/a/1327-3802.s?ic16=ViewItem-Auction-Archive-PreviousPricesHeritage-081514
I’m amazed that nobody has commented on the most shocking aspect of this entire thread:
Augustus married Augusta
About that level, I would think. There’s really not much spread on these and that was a strong price
Only if you subscribe to the belief that coin graders are professional appraisers instead of truly grading coins based on their physical attributes rather than trying to price them.
Actually, Augusta married Augustus.😄
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I’m not sure that’s correct. If the coin had been assigned a details grade, it’s condition (other than the the carved initials) noted and everything else the same, perhaps it would have brought a similar amount.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.