Did you know that the 1884 trade dollar...
tradedollarnut
Posts: 20,198 ✭✭✭✭✭
...is a legitimate Mint issue? Authorized and struck under normal circumstances...then saved from the melting pot....similar to the 1876-CC twenty cent piece.
“ Research done in 1988 by the late Carl W. A. Carlson, on the other hand, proves that the 1884 Trade dollar was struck officially and under the supervision of Mint officials. The following commentary is based on the evidence that Carlson brought to light in Stack's June 1988 catalog of the Frank Sprinkle Collection.
The "Die Record Book" kept by A. W. Straub, foreman of the Die Makers' Room, clearly records receipt from the Engraving Department of one obverse and one reverse die for the proof 1884 Trade dollar on January 3 of that year. Straub supervised the transfer of these dies from the Die Makers' Room to the Coining Department when Superintendent Colonel A. Loudon Snowden ordered proof production to begin. This most likely happened within the first week of January. The first coins produced with these dies were copper trial pieces (Judd-1732, Pollock-1943), a clear indication that the Mint had plans for large scale production. Today, three or four copper die trial pieces are extant, two of which have been silver plated. According to the Fourteenth Annual Report of the Director of the Mint, page 126, there were 264 proof Trade dollars struck in 1884. These coins were delivered to the cashier on January 19. Shortly thereafter, the Treasury Department sent orders to the Mint forbidding production of proof Trade dollars for sale to collectors. It seems likely that William Idler, who was unusually well-connected at the Mint, acquired 10 proof sets of the date, including the Trade dollar, soon after they were struck. Idler may have heard rumors from his friends at the Mint that the annual offerings of proof Trade dollars were about to be cancelled and took advantage of this inside information to secure the coins before the directive could take effect. There are three scenarios that could explain how Idler acquired these coins, all of which hinge upon his special connections with the Mint, probably through a personal relationship with Superintendent Snowden:
- Idler acquired the first 10 proof 1884 Trade dollars delivered on January 19 before the Treasury Department halted production. He would have done this legally because employees and their friends could acquire current coins from the Mint by exchanging them for the proper amount of bullion. This policy remained in effect through the late 1930s.
- Idler convinced Superintendent Snowden to save 10 of the proof Trade dollars delivered on January 19, 1884 from destruction. Either Snowden or Idler provided the bullion for exchange so that the Mint's journals would balance.
- Snowden saved the coins from destruction, provided the bullion, and kept the coins for an unknown period of time. At a later date, Idler acquired the coins from him.
In all of these scenarios, Idler would have obtained the coins legally because the required bullion for exchange would have been deposited at the Mint. The fact that the Mint's bullion journals balanced explains why there is no official correspondence concerning this issue--nobody would have been looking for bullion that was not missing. Regardless of which of these scenarios is correct, there is little doubt that the 1884 Trade dollar is a legitimate issue that was legally produced and properly acquired from the Mint. We are also fairly certain that Superintendent Snowden played a key role in Idler's acquisition of all 10 coins. The remaining 254 proof 1884 Trade dollars were undoubtedly melted, once the Treasury ban on selling them took effect. Both the obverse and reverse dies were destroyed on January 2, 1885, as shown by the die destruction report of the coiner.”
Comments
Which one have you acquired?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Not like he hasn’t owned one before which I believe was the Norweb example. That was a little snarky for a well written out gem of a post don’t you think.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
I’ve owned 3 before:
Norweb 63
Pcgs MS65
Eliasberg 66
1885’s I’ve also owned 3:
Norweb 62
Carter 63+
Eliasberg 65+
I’m still waiting on the finest one...
I don’t think so, but more importantly, I hope Bruce doesn’t think so, either. I was simply making a guess, after having “Liked” his post.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Bruce, considering that the 1885 is rarer, but that the circumstances of its production are suspect, all other things being equal, if you could have the finest example of either date, which would you choose? And if you’d select the 1885, would it be an easy decision?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Oh I’d definitely take the 1885. Mysterious production aside, it’s far more famous.
Interesting info, thanks
boston
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb, Ricko
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
Thanks.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I know what I would have guessed for the connoisseur of multiple 1913 Liberty nickels
I've been curious about the 6 Virgil Brand 1884 Trade Dollars for some time. How did he come to acquire so many and how many have been identified?
Supposedly, Wooden received all the 1885’s and many of the 1884’s as part of the package when he traded back the Gold Union patterns. Perhaps he was the source?
I own one of them
Awesome coin! Love it! Congrats!
Thank you!
Quite the early post. Looking forward to hearing your perspectives. Already got my respect as a fellow trade dollar fan.
Welcome
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Gotta find a way to expend all the coin energy in the absence of shows- stupid Covid- but I’m vaccinated and hoping for some summer FUN!!
Very nice post @tradedollarnut! It certainly piques my interest to learn that they were an authorized issue.
@TradeDollarNut A serious question. What do you think of Roger Burdette's recent Coin World article that posits that the Proof-only Trade Dollars from 1879-on were issued as "medals" rather than as "coins?" Obviously they were made to sell to coin collectors, but there are serious issues raised as to whether they were "monetized" or not.
I suppose that the same question could be raised as to the silver dollars struck in 1834 and 1835. Were examples of those submitted to the Annual Assay Commissions for those years?
IMO, completely irrelevant to all but the serious academics.
And ‘monetization’ only applies from 1913 onward - when the fed was created. Besides - weren’t ALL proofs at that time treated as medals anyway?
I thought Roger said monetization was a made-up thing with respect to mint operations through 1933? Was that someone else?
PCGS CoinFacts indicates all 9 of the 1884 dollars it lists came through William Idler - Capt. John W. Haseltine and Steven K. Nagy. Is the tenth coin MIA?
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1884-t-1-trade/7064
I found this Heritage description that discusses the Idler vs. Woodin theories for the 1885 Trade Dollars.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/proof-trade-dollars/1885-t-1-trade-pr63-cameo-pcgs-cac/a/1326-3030.s
Is the current thinking that not all of the 1884s were through Idler and Haseltine?
Roger says a lot of things.
Roger did not use the term monetization. I did, as it seems to be relevant to the question at hand. If these were not carried on the books as money, then it would seem logical that they were never monetized.
you and TDN need to agree on a time zone to live in so you can easily converse.
Haha we’re only about 3000 miles apart!
I had the chance to buy the 1885 Trade Dollar back in 1995. I even had it in my hands at the time. But it was not in my bucket list.
My wife would have divorced me if I spent so much money on a single coin.
With no disrespect to TDN, I have to agree the 1885 trade dollar is a fabulous coin.
But she's fine with spreading it out over a handful?
I'm still not sure why the CoinFacts Census shows only 9 coins. Is the 10th coin not known?
Can anyone provide info on the 10th coin?
HA listed a roster of ten in its 2019 auction:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/trade-dollars/silver-and-related-dollars/1884-t-1-pr63-pcgs-pcgs-7064-/a/1298-3778.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515
And Stacks did as well:
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-LWXG6/1884-trade-dollar-proof-64-cameo-pcgs?utm_source=coinweek
I think #9 in the roster may be the missing coin- possibly uncertified?
9 - Proof-63. The RARCOA Specimen. Ex Philadelphia Mint Superintendent A. Loudon Snowden, 1884; unknown intermediaries; Chicago estate, possibly Virgil Brand; RARCOA (Ed Milas); World-Wide Coins (John Hamrick); Steve Ivy; Robert Marks Collection; our (Bowers and Ruddy's) Rare Coin Review No. 15, 1972; our (Bowers and Ruddy's) Herstal Sale, February 1974, lot 734; Donald Apte and Mulford B. Simons; Mulford B. Simons; private Southern collection.
Here's the @DLHansen Specimen. So, along with @Floridafacelifter and @tradedollarnut, forum members own at least 30% of the specimens!
1884 Trade Dollar - PCGS PR67 POP 1/0 CAC - Dunham-Hansen Specimen
1884 Trade Dollar - PCGS PR64+CAM POP 1/1 - Newcomer-Carter Specimen
1884 Trade Dollar - PCGS PR63+CAM POP 1/3 - Johnson-Simpson Specimen
@Floridafacelifter ... That is a beautiful specimen... Truly coin art. Congratulations on such a special piece. Cheers, RickO
PCGS CoinFacts actually does list all 10 coins, but one is separated into the "Cameo" tab.
It is actually the one owned by Floridafacelifter.
Would seem to be better if all were listed in one place.
Also the census list is out of date on some grades that PCGS has since assigned. One example is the Amon Carter coin listed under the non-Cameo tab census as number 4 - PR64 estimated grade. It has since been graded as PCGS Proof-64+ Cameo. Also, 8 - PR62 estimated grade is duplicated on the Cam tab census as PCGS Proof-63+ Cameo.
Cameo tab link:
https://pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1884-t-1-trade-cam/87064
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Here is what they show for the one on the Cameo tab that is not listed with the other nine:
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PR64CAM PCGS grade
William K. Idler - Capt. John W. Haseltine and Stephen K. Nagy - Virgil M. Brand Collection - Armin Brand in 1938 - William Cutler Atwater Collection - B. Max Mehl 6/1946:377, $800 - Will W. Neil Collection - B. Max Mehl 6/1947:296, $551 - Robert C. Pelletreau Collection - Stack's 3/1959:1054, $3,300 - Jerry Cohen - Partnership of Julian Leidman, Mike Brownlee, and Hugh Sconyers - James Halperin (purchased at the 1974 ANA Convention - NERCA “NENA Convention Sale” 11/1975:639, $39,000 - Mulford B. Simons, Jr. - Hanks & Associates 4/1985:351, $55,000 - RARCOA “Auction ‘89” 8/1989:327 - Jay Parrino - Superior “Auction ‘90” 8/1990:1163 - Jay Parrino - Superior 5/1991:987 - L.K. Rudolf Collection - Stack’s 5/2003:2174 - Bowers & Merena 5/2004:328 - American Numismatic Rarities “Old West & Franklinton Collections” 8/2006:855, not sold
Mehl used the same photograph from the Dunham catalog (1941) to illustrate subsequent sales: Olsen (1944); Roe (1945); Atwater (1946); Neil (1947); and Kern (1950).
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"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
The best rosters are compiled by Auctioneers. This was compiled by StacksBowers in March 2020. It my be a little outdated. I added some recent owners.
Registry of 1884 Trade Dollars
10 Known
The following roster of known specimens of the 1884 trade dollar is updated from Q. David Bowers' standard 1993 reference Silver Dollars and Trade Dollars of the United States: A Complete Encyclopedia, with corrections and additions obtained from the PCGS CoinFacts website and research presented in Heritage's August 2019 ANA Signature Auction. The grades are either those currently assigned by PCGS or NGC or, for the single uncertified specimen, an estimated grade based on historic market appearances. In most instances it is no longer possible to ascertain which were the six 1884 trade dollars distributed through Idler-Haseltine and which four likely entered the numismatic market through William H. Woodin. Hence, we have used the terminology "unknown intermediaries" after Philadelphia Mint Superintendent A. Loudon Snowden, who acquired all 10 specimens from the cashier shortly after they were struck. This registry is confined to the 10 silver 1884 trade dollars and does not include the copper impressions.
1 - PCGS Proof-67. The Dunham Specimen. Ex Philadelphia Mint Superintendent A. Loudon Snowden, 1884; unknown intermediaries; William Forrester Dunham, sold with his collection to the following in 1939; B. Max Mehl (into his inventory, although few people knew this); B. Max Mehl's mail bid sale of the William Forrester Dunham Collection, June 1941, lot 1150; Floyd T. Starr; Starr estate; our (Stack's) sale of the Floyd T. Starr Collection, October 1992, lot 844; Jay Parrino (trading as "The Mint"); Ira & Larry Goldberg's California Sale, October 2000, lot 1784; Jay Parrino; Heritage's New York Signature Sale of November 2003, lot 8312; Jay Parrino.; Purchase by Private Tranaction (David Lawrence Rare Coins 1/2018), D.L Hansen Collection.
2 - NGC Proof-66. The Eliasberg Specimen. Ex Philadelphia Mint Superintendent A. Loudon Snowden, 1884; William H. Woodin, 1910 (presumably); H.O. Granberg, exhibited at the 1914 ANS Exhibition as part of a full set of trade dollars; B. Max Mehl's sale of the H.O. Granberg Collection, July 1919, lot 128; Virgil Brand, journal number 92357; Armin Brand, sold September 1, 1942; unknown intermediaries, possibly Stack's in 1942; Louis E. Eliasberg, Sr.; our (Bowers and Merena's) sale of the Louis E. Eliasberg, Sr. Collection, April 1997, lot 2353; Spectrum Numismatics; Legend Collection; private collection; Heritage's FUN Signature Auction of January 2019, lot 4552; Black Cat Collection.
3 - PCGS Proof-65. The Adolphe Menjou Specimen. Ex Philadelphia Mint Superintendent A. Loudon Snowden, 1884; unknown intermediaries; Clinton Hester; Numismatic Gallery's Adolphe Menjou Collection sale, June 1950, lot 2040; Benjamin Stack (Imperial Coin Company), advertised an 1884 trade dollar in The Numismatic Scrapbook Magazine, March 1955, along with an 1885 trade dollar; W.G. Baldenhofer; our (Stack's) Farish-Baldenhofer Sale, November 1955, lot 1039; Ben Koenig; our (Stack's) Fairbanks Collection Sale, December 1960, lot 698; our (Stack's) Samuel W. Wolfson Collection Sale, Part II, May 1963, lot 1541; Dan Messer; Jack Clauson and Joel Rettew; Quality Sales Corporation's (Abner Kreisberg and Jerry Cohen) Carlson-Shipley Sale, November 1976, lot 426; Danny Arnold; our (Bowers and Merena's) Danny Arnold and Romisa Collections sale, September 1984, lot 2342; John N. Rowe, III; L.R. French, Jr.; our (Stack's) sale of the L.R. French, Jr. Collection, January 1989, lot 201; Anthony Terranova; Larry Whitlow; Denver Coin Company; Jay Parrino ("The Mint"); Superior's Pre-Long Beach Sale of October 2000, lot 3576; Legend Collection; Jack Lee estate; Heritage's Dallas, TX Signature Auction of November 2005, lot 2281; private collection; John Albanese; private collection; Heritage's FUN Signature Auction of January 2014, lot 5311.
4 - PCGS Proof-64+ Cameo. The Amon G. Carter Specimen. Ex Philadelphia Mint Superintendent A. Loudon Snowden, 1884; William H. Woodin, 1910 (presumably); Edgar H. Adams, advertised in the March 1915 issue of The Numismatist; Waldo C. Newcomer, exhibited at the 1916 ANS Exhibition; B. Max Mehl, 1931, on consignment but not sold; consigned from the Newcomer Collection to J.C. Morgenthau & Co.'s 348th Sale, May 1935, lot 431; "Colonel" E.H.R. Green; Burdette G. Johnson, circa 1943; B. Max Mehl's mail bid sale of the Jack V. Roe Collection, June 1945, lot 627; possibly Percy A. Smith, who displayed a complete set of United States silver and trade dollars at the Third Annual Convention of the Oregon Numismatic Society and the Seattle Coin Club on May 5, 1946, per the July 1946 issue of The Numismatist, presumably consigned to the following; B. Max Mehl's Golden Jubilee Sale, May 1950, lot 896; Amon Gamaliel Carter, Sr.; Amon G. Carter, Jr.; our (Stack's) sale of the Amon G. Carter, Jr. Family Collection, January 1984, lot 440; E. Horatio Morgan Collection;
5 - PCGS Proof-64 Cameo. The Atwater-Neil Specimen. Ex Philadelphia Mint Superintendent A. Loudon Snowden, 1884; unknown intermediaries; B. Max Mehl's sale of the William Cutler Atwater Collection, June 1946, lot 377; B. Max Mehl's sale of the Will W. Neil Collection, June 1947, lot 296; our (Stack's) sale of the Robert C. Pelletreau Collection, March 1959, lot 1054; Jerry Cohen; unknown intermediaries; Julian Leidman, Mike Brownlee and Hugh Sconyers, exhibited at Stack's bourse table at the 1974 ANA Convention, and sold immediately thereafter to the following, along with an 1885 trade dollar; James Halperin; New England Rare Coin Galleries' Fixed Price Lists of December 1974 and February 1975; New England Rare Coin Auctions' 31st Annual New England Numismatic Association Convention Sale, November 1975, lot 639; Mulford B. Simons, Jr.; Larry Hanks' (Hanks and Associates) sale of April 20, 1985, lot 351; unknown intermediaries?; RARCOA's session of Auction '89, August 1989, lot 327; Jay Parrino; Superior's session of Auction '90, August 1990, lot 1163; Jay Parrino; Superior's May 29, 1991 Sale, lot 987; our (Stack's) sale of the L.K. Rudolf Collection, May 2003, lot 2174; our (Bowers and Merena's) Rarities Sale of May 2004, lot 328; private collection; our (American Duke Collection Numismatic Rarities') Old West and Franklinton Collections sale, August 2006, lot 855; Duke Collection.
6 - NGC Proof-64. The Rettew Specimen. Ex Philadelphia Mint Superintendent A. Loudon Snowden, 1884; unknown intermediaries; private collection, late 1940s, and consigned to the following as part of an assembled 1884 Proof set; our (Stack's) ANA Sale of August 1976, lot 723; Joel D. Rettew; Midwestern medical doctor; Heritage's Early Spring ANA Sale of March 1996, lot 6513; Mid-American Rare Coins (Jeff Garrett); Richmond Collection; David Lawrence's sale of the Richmond Collection, Part II, November 2004, lot 1568.
7- PCGS Proof-63+ Cameo. The Sprinkle Specimen. Ex Philadelphia Mint Superintendent A. Loudon Snowden, 1884; unknown intermediaries; "Colonel" E.H.R. Green; Burdette G. Johnson; James Kelly; Frank F. Sprinkle, June 24, 1944; our (Stack's) sale of the Frank F. Sprinkle Collection, June 1988, lot 106; Larry Whitlow; Dana Linett; Early American Numismatics Newport Beach Sale, San Diego Show, October 1988, lot 461; RARCOA's session of Auction '90, August 1990, lot 845; Mark Chrans; our (Stack's) ANA National Money Show Sale of March 2002, lot 795; private collection; Kevin Lipton; Legend Numismatics; private collection; our (Bowers and Merena's) Rarities Sale of January 2003, lot 569.
8 - PCGS Proof-63. The Farouk-Norweb Specimen. Ex Philadelphia Mint Superintendent A. Loudon Snowden, 1884; unknown intermediaries; King Farouk of Egypt; Sotheby's sale of the Palace Collections of Egypt, February 1954, lot 1679; Ambassador and Mrs. R. Henry Norweb; our (Bowers and Merena's) sale of the Norweb Collection, Part II, March 1988, lot 1847; American Coin Portfolios (Dan Drykerman); private New York collection; Bowers and Merena Galleries, privately, March 20, 1992; Q. David Bowers (personal collection), March 23, 1992; Summit Rare Coins (Chris Napolitano); Morris Silverman; Heritage's sale of the Morris Silverman Collection, April 2002 CSNS Signature Sale, lot 4131; U.S. Coins (Kenny Duncan); private Nevada Collection; Pinnacle Rarities; private collection; Heritage's FUN Signature Auction of January 2017, lot 5735; Heritage's sale of the Poulos Family Collection, August 2019 ANA Signature Auction, lot 3778.
9 - Proof-63. The RARCOA Specimen. Ex Philadelphia Mint Superintendent A. Loudon Snowden, 1884; unknown intermediaries; Chicago estate, possibly Virgil Brand; RARCOA (Ed Milas); World-Wide Coins (John Hamrick); Steve Ivy; Robert Marks Collection; our (Bowers and Ruddy's) Rare Coin Review No. 15, 1972; our (Bowers and Ruddy's) Herstal Sale, February 1974, lot 734; Donald Apte and Mulford B. Simons; Mulford B. Simons; private Southern collection.
10 - PCGS Proof-50. The Olsen Specimen. Ex Philadelphia Mint Superintendent A. Loudon Snowden, 1884; unknown intermediaries; Fred Olsen; B. Max Mehl's mail bid sale of the Fred Olsen Collection, November 1944, lot 997; George Sealy Ewalt; our (Stack's) sale of the George Sealy Ewalt Collection, November 1965, lot 42; Calvert L. Emmons, M.D.; our (Stack's) sale of the Dr. Calvert L. Emmons Collection, September 1969, lot 814; private collection; Western Numismatics (Jan Bronson); Steve Ivy's ANA Sale of August 1980, lot 2643; RARCOA's session of Auction '84, July 1984, lot 1809; Fred L. Fredericks; Superior's L.W. Hoffecker Collection sale, February 1987, lot 1446A; Eugene Worrell; Superior's sale of the Worrell Collection, September 1993, lot 1324; Ira & Larry Goldberg's sale of the Dr. Jon Kardatzke Collection, Part I, February 2000, lot 1470.
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
WOW!!!!
I was just going to ask about the one coming up at Heritage Auctions
https://coins.ha.com/itm/trade-dollars/silver-and-related-dollars/1884-t-1-trade-pr63-cameo-pcgs-cac-pcgs-87064-/p/1329-11478.s
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
It's still an insider work around sneaky way to get a coin that no one else could get. IMO. Peace Roy
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Of note, the two silver-plated speicmens were attempted to be sold as silver. Both specimens were privately plated some time between 1936 and 1975.
The DuPont silver-plated specimen is now at the Smithsonian. The Linkner specimen was sold by Heritage in 2017:
1884 Trade Dollar in Copper - Post-Mint Private Silver Plating - Judd-1732, Pollock-1943 - PCGS MS60 - Andrew Mason Smith, Dr. E.J. Linkner Specimen
Provenance (by Heritage): Silver-plated at an unknown date between 1936 and 1975. ANA Sale (Superior, 8/1975), lot 1218, offered as an 1884 Trade dollar in silver; Bowers and Ruddy (Rare Coin Review, Number 25-29), offered as "copper but lightly silvered;" Great '80 Sale (Robert L. Hughes, 7/1980), lot 155, offered as "copper and gilted to look silver;" Dr. E.J. Linkner; American Numismatic Rarities (1/2004), lot 98, offered as "silver plated copper." The present specimen.
I have to say it's pretty cool that PCGS would straight-grade a privately silver-plated piece. It shows how important that this piece is to numismatics.
USPatterns says just 2 are known. Do you have information on the others?
https://uspatterns.stores.yahoo.net/j1732p1943.html
I’d love to own an 1884 in copper. Super cool
Just one more sign the 1884 was a legitimate Mint issue
Is it possible to remove the silver plating?
Here’s a video in how to remove silver plating from copper. Not sure if this would be recommended for a $70K coin!
Here are the 4 copper specimens from QDB's Silver Dollars & Trade Dollars of the United States - A Complete Encyclopedia:
I would interpret the info on USPatterns.com to mean that the Anderson-Dupont specimen was also owned by Andrew Mason Smith.
https://www.pcgs.com/books/silver-dollars/Chapter12Listings/75
Well you can hide spending the same amount of money over lots of little coins rather than one big coin.
"Little" coins are more fun to me anyway.
The 1884 and 1885 Trade dollars are not coins in a legal sense. They are
medals struck with coin dies. To be a coin in either of those years requires
a warrant signed by the superintendent of the Philadelphia Mint; the records
are complete and there is no such warrant. For technical reasons it appears
that Trade dollars of 1883 and before were considered medals for internal
purposes but were reported as coinage in the annual mint reports. The 1884
and 1885 issues were not listed in the reports.
That's along the lines of what @CaptHenway posted on Roger's findings earlier in this thread: