@craig44 said:
I feel that if the HOF has no problem putting in past PED users like: Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Mike Schmidt, Mickey Mantle to name a few, then they should have no problem letting in modern known PED users like Manny Ramirez, Palmiero, McGwire, Sosa etc.
a very clear double standard. players were even experimenting with PED in the 19th Century when Pud Galvin tried it.
Not saying you're wrong. Where did this info come out about Mays, Mantle and Aaron using steroids?
You'll all sleep better when you realize how irrelevant MLB's HOF is. 2019 was the final nail in the coffin until they start voting people out. PED usage or not is honestly the least of their worries.
@bobbybakeriv said:
Wasn't McGwire accused of using Andro which was legal at the time (i.e., the infamous interview in front of his locker)? Heck, they sold it at GNC. I don't know all the details obviously but I err on the side of the players, here. There ARE guys in the HOF who were juiced while playing. I just don't think it is a fair process. Some do seem to get a pass while others are crucified by the media. But as was mentioned earlier, the HOF is just not what it used to be. I agree.
Yes indeed and I gave him the benefit of the doubt at the time. But as it turns out by his own admission, he too was a (illegal/banned) 'roid faker just like Bobby, eh Barry.
@bobbybakeriv said:
Wasn't McGwire accused of using Andro which was legal at the time (i.e., the infamous interview in front of his locker)? Heck, they sold it at GNC. I don't know all the details obviously but I err on the side of the players, here. There ARE guys in the HOF who were juiced while playing. I just don't think it is a fair process. Some do seem to get a pass while others are crucified by the media. But as was mentioned earlier, the HOF is just not what it used to be. I agree.
Yes indeed and I gave him the benefit of the doubt at the time. But as it turns out by his own admission, he too was a (illegal/banned) 'roid faker just like Bobby, eh Barry.
I did not know that. What do you mean by or who is Bobby?
@bobbybakeriv said:
Wasn't McGwire accused of using Andro which was legal at the time (i.e., the infamous interview in front of his locker)? Heck, they sold it at GNC. I don't know all the details obviously but I err on the side of the players, here. There ARE guys in the HOF who were juiced while playing. I just don't think it is a fair process. Some do seem to get a pass while others are crucified by the media. But as was mentioned earlier, the HOF is just not what it used to be. I agree.
It was brilliant doing an interview with the Andro in his locker. It explained his physical growth (but we now know better) very cleverly.
I did not know that McGwire later tested positive. I really didn't follow the whole thing much back then. Oh well, I think we (at least I) have beaten this dead horse long enough.
@bobbybakeriv said:
Wasn't McGwire accused of using Andro which was legal at the time (i.e., the infamous interview in front of his locker)? Heck, they sold it at GNC. I don't know all the details obviously but I err on the side of the players, here. There ARE guys in the HOF who were juiced while playing. I just don't think it is a fair process. Some do seem to get a pass while others are crucified by the media. But as was mentioned earlier, the HOF is just not what it used to be. I agree.
It was brilliant doing an interview with the Andro in his locker. It explained his physical growth (but we now know better) very cleverly.
I did not know that McGwire later tested positive. I really didn't follow the whole thing much back then. Oh well, I think we (at least I) have beaten this dead horse long enough.
McGwire admitted to use.
It's not beating a dead horse if people who are uninformed learn the facts.
When I say "uninformed" I mean no disrespect, MANY here don't bother to research the facts.> @coolstanley said:
@craig44 said:
I feel that if the HOF has no problem putting in past PED users like: Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Mike Schmidt, Mickey Mantle to name a few, then they should have no problem letting in modern known PED users like Manny Ramirez, Palmiero, McGwire, Sosa etc.
a very clear double standard. players were even experimenting with PED in the 19th Century when Pud Galvin tried it.
Not saying you're wrong. Where did this info come out about Mays, Mantle and Aaron using steroids?
This is ridiculous and should be ignored. IF any of those three actually tried some kind of drug, they didn't benefit from it. Guys like Bonds and McGwire got huge.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@craig44 said:
I feel that if the HOF has no problem putting in past PED users like: Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Mike Schmidt, Mickey Mantle to name a few, then they should have no problem letting in modern known PED users like Manny Ramirez, Palmiero, McGwire, Sosa etc.
a very clear double standard. players were even experimenting with PED in the 19th Century when Pud Galvin tried it.
Not saying you're wrong. Where did this info come out about Mays, Mantle and Aaron using steroids?
they are all admitted users of Amphetamines. and yes, greenies are PED's old Teddy Ballgame used and is widely thought to be the one who introduced the drug into mlb after the war.
@bobbybakeriv said:
Wasn't McGwire accused of using Andro which was legal at the time (i.e., the infamous interview in front of his locker)? Heck, they sold it at GNC. I don't know all the details obviously but I err on the side of the players, here. There ARE guys in the HOF who were juiced while playing. I just don't think it is a fair process. Some do seem to get a pass while others are crucified by the media. But as was mentioned earlier, the HOF is just not what it used to be. I agree.
It was brilliant doing an interview with the Andro in his locker. It explained his physical growth (but we now know better) very cleverly.
I did not know that McGwire later tested positive. I really didn't follow the whole thing much back then. Oh well, I think we (at least I) have beaten this dead horse long enough.
McGwire admitted to use.
It's not beating a dead horse if people who are uninformed learn the facts.
When I say "uninformed" I mean no disrespect, MANY here don't bother to research the facts.> @coolstanley said:
@craig44 said:
I feel that if the HOF has no problem putting in past PED users like: Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Mike Schmidt, Mickey Mantle to name a few, then they should have no problem letting in modern known PED users like Manny Ramirez, Palmiero, McGwire, Sosa etc.
a very clear double standard. players were even experimenting with PED in the 19th Century when Pud Galvin tried it.
Not saying you're wrong. Where did this info come out about Mays, Mantle and Aaron using steroids?
This is ridiculous and should be ignored. IF any of those three actually tried some kind of drug, they didn't benefit from it. Guys like Bonds and McGwire got huge.
Not ridiculous Joe. a drug does not have to make you physically larger to make you better. Amphetamines absolutely improve concentration. If they didn't work, all those players wouldn't have used them.
why does it matter if a drug is legal or illegal if it enhances performance. lots and lots of players have broken laws but they are not held out of HOF consideration.
the crux of the matter is if a substance enhances performance. I really don't care if PED players get into the hall or not, I just want it to be fair. if we are not letting PED players in, then that means all of them, including the greats from the 1950's on up. If we are letting them in, then let all of them in.
Not ridiculous Joe. a drug does not have to make you physically larger to make you better. Amphetamines absolutely improve concentration. If they didn't work, all those players wouldn't have used them.
I will point it out again. Amphetamines sometimes improve concentration and sometimes make you "jittery" which can hurt your performance, so they are not at all like steroids that help you become stronger, a permanent improvement. Steroids can also help your body heal faster from injury.
Jim Bouton addresses amphetamines in his book "Ball Four". He did say they were widely used, he said they could hurt you as well as help you.
Years ago, I used amphetamines when I worked the night shift, sometimes they worked sometimes not at all.
Comparing them to steroids is like comparing a fire cracker to a hand grenade. They both make a noise, but they are far from the same.
All you have to do is look at the numbers put up by the steroid users to see that.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Not ridiculous Joe. a drug does not have to make you physically larger to make you better. Amphetamines absolutely improve concentration. If they didn't work, all those players wouldn't have used them.
I will point it out again. Amphetamines sometimes improve concentration and sometimes make you "jittery" which can hurt your performance, so they are not at all like steroids that help you become stronger, a permanent improvement. Steroids can also help your body heal faster from injury.
Jim Bouton addresses amphetamines in his book "Ball Four". He did say they were widely used, he said they could hurt you as well as help you.
Years ago, I used amphetamines when I worked the night shift, sometimes they worked sometimes not at all.
Comparing them to steroids is like comparing a fire cracker to a hand grenade. They both make a noise, but they are far from the same.
All you have to do is look at the numbers put up by the steroid users to see that.
Well stated. Just like felonies and misdemeanors, not all PEDs are in the same class. I think we can all reasonably agree which should be categorized as Class A, though.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Not ridiculous Joe. a drug does not have to make you physically larger to make you better. Amphetamines absolutely improve concentration. If they didn't work, all those players wouldn't have used them.
I will point it out again. Amphetamines sometimes improve concentration and sometimes make you "jittery" which can hurt your performance, so they are not at all like steroids that help you become stronger, a permanent improvement. Steroids can also help your body heal faster from injury.
Jim Bouton addresses amphetamines in his book "Ball Four". He did say they were widely used, he said they could hurt you as well as help you.
Years ago, I used amphetamines when I worked the night shift, sometimes they worked sometimes not at all.
Comparing them to steroids is like comparing a fire cracker to a hand grenade. They both make a noise, but they are far from the same.
All you have to do is look at the numbers put up by the steroid users to see that.
Well stated. Just like felonies and misdemeanors, not all PEDs are in the same class. I think we can all reasonably agree which should be categorized as Class A, though.
keep in mind we are not talking about prison sentences here. we are talking about the nuanced world of HOF eligibility/induction.
are you saying here that a little bit of cheating is permissible? or is slightly more cheating ok? if we put it on a number scale, would 3% cheating be acceptable? what about 17%? 33%?
then, how do we determine which PED is worth how much advantage? Who is the PED Czar who gets to make that determination?
once that determination is made, how do we conclude exactly who used, for how long and to what degree?
If PED use is cheating, how do we adjust statistics for non users?
Do we banish those from the Hall who did use? there are a number of prominent players who admit to it.
do you see where I am going with this? I think most purists bristle at any cheating that could influence stats, yet they let all players who in your words used a "misdemeanor" PED slide.
I like consistency. If someone believes using PED was cheating, that is fine. However, all players who used PED were cheaters and should be treated as such. including heroes from the golden age. otherwise, we should treat modern known users the same as golden age known users.
Not ridiculous Joe. a drug does not have to make you physically larger to make you better. Amphetamines absolutely improve concentration. If they didn't work, all those players wouldn't have used them.
I will point it out again. Amphetamines sometimes improve concentration and sometimes make you "jittery" which can hurt your performance, so they are not at all like steroids that help you become stronger, a permanent improvement. Steroids can also help your body heal faster from injury.
Jim Bouton addresses amphetamines in his book "Ball Four". He did say they were widely used, he said they could hurt you as well as help you.
Years ago, I used amphetamines when I worked the night shift, sometimes they worked sometimes not at all.
Comparing them to steroids is like comparing a fire cracker to a hand grenade. They both make a noise, but they are far from the same.
All you have to do is look at the numbers put up by the steroid users to see that.
I agree, drugs effect everyone differently. for some players, I am sure PED worked wonders and helped a lot. However, for others, like you said, maybe they could hurt performance.
It then stands to reason that perhaps, some Steroids/HGH/other type of PED could have hurt some players performance?
how do we differentiate between the two. because I bet if asked, almost all players would not admit PED were of any help. McGwire said as much.
I would also imagine that for those whom PEDs didn't work, like you on the night shift, they would have discontinued use?
for those whom PED did work, they would have continued use. this brings to mind Mays and Aaron. Willie was a well known abuser of amphetamine and consumed lots. I would imagine he saw some very positive effects to use as much as he did, no? Aaron, if he is to be believed, said he only used once. that being because he didn't like the effects.
Well stated. Just like felonies and misdemeanors, not all PEDs are in the same class. I think we can all reasonably agree which should be categorized as Class A, though.
keep in mind we are not talking about prison sentences here. we are talking about the nuanced world of HOF eligibility/induction.
are you saying here that a little bit of cheating is permissible? or is slightly more cheating ok? if we put it on a number scale, would 3% cheating be acceptable? what about 17%? 33%?
It's probably true that most, if not all, players have "cheated" in some way or another. Does this mean we tear down the HOF and say "forget it, they ALL cheated"?
As stated, some PEDs do little or nothing, and some give the user/cheater a HUGE benefit.
Amphetamines sometimes help, sometimes hurt your performance.
Anabolic steroids if taken occasionally do little or nothing for the user, but the hard core cheater who is willing to regularly inject himself with them, along with working out like a madman will become bigger, stronger, faster and heal from injury more quickly.
The result of steroids was, among other things, the single season HR (60/61) record that had stood for 71 years gets smashed by guys who without steroids probably could never hit more than 50. Eventually making the lifetime HR totals laughable.
If you cheat and it really doesn't help, you're in the wrong, but if you cheat and it ends up blowing up the record books, that is worse by far in my opinion, much worse.
Similar to the person who occasionally smokes a joint and one who shoots up heroin three times a day.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Bonds prices continue to rage higher with or without the HOF.... Pudge Rodriguez did 'em.... Jeff Bagwell admitted to it.... its a popularity contest.... Sammy Sosa is more popular than most HOFer's ..... they should all get in eventually b/c you cannot let Bagwell, Piazza and Pudge in without the others... but Bonds and Clemens not getting in keeps their names flying around every year and reminds folks of their records... I hope Barry does not get in so that every year veterans voting has to read articles about how amazing he was.... prices rise as all the supply gets saturated even 441 copies is nothing..... I know a couple collectors who own a dozen each from way back when they were much cheaper.
@coolstanley said:
I noticed the graded 63 Rose rookies have exploded in price recently.
Everything has exploded it seems. It is good for those of us that have held onto the cards but a lot of people are now feeling some pressure to sell because prices are (in some cases) life changing money.
@ScoobyDoo2 said:
Bonds prices continue to rage higher with or without the HOF.... Pudge Rodriguez did 'em.... Jeff Bagwell admitted to it.... its a popularity contest.... Sammy Sosa is more popular than most HOFer's ..... they should all get in eventually b/c you cannot let Bagwell, Piazza and Pudge in without the others... but Bonds and Clemens not getting in keeps their names flying around every year and reminds folks of their records... I hope Barry does not get in so that every year veterans voting has to read articles about how amazing he was.... prices rise as all the supply gets saturated even 441 copies is nothing..... I know a couple collectors who own a dozen each from way back when they were much cheaper.
Comments
Not saying you're wrong. Where did this info come out about Mays, Mantle and Aaron using steroids?
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
You'll all sleep better when you realize how irrelevant MLB's HOF is. 2019 was the final nail in the coffin until they start voting people out. PED usage or not is honestly the least of their worries.
Bonds is the JACKASS in his sport.
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
Yes indeed and I gave him the benefit of the doubt at the time. But as it turns out by his own admission, he too was a (illegal/banned) 'roid faker just like Bobby, eh Barry.
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
I did not know that. What do you mean by or who is Bobby?
I did not know that McGwire later tested positive. I really didn't follow the whole thing much back then. Oh well, I think we (at least I) have beaten this dead horse long enough.
McGwire admitted to use.
It's not beating a dead horse if people who are uninformed learn the facts.
When I say "uninformed" I mean no disrespect, MANY here don't bother to research the facts.> @coolstanley said:
This is ridiculous and should be ignored. IF any of those three actually tried some kind of drug, they didn't benefit from it. Guys like Bonds and McGwire got huge.
they are all admitted users of Amphetamines. and yes, greenies are PED's old Teddy Ballgame used and is widely thought to be the one who introduced the drug into mlb after the war.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Not ridiculous Joe. a drug does not have to make you physically larger to make you better. Amphetamines absolutely improve concentration. If they didn't work, all those players wouldn't have used them.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Amphetamines were not illegal in baseball or Federal law. Steroids were illegal, but were not in baseball.
why does it matter if a drug is legal or illegal if it enhances performance. lots and lots of players have broken laws but they are not held out of HOF consideration.
the crux of the matter is if a substance enhances performance. I really don't care if PED players get into the hall or not, I just want it to be fair. if we are not letting PED players in, then that means all of them, including the greats from the 1950's on up. If we are letting them in, then let all of them in.
just be consistent
simple really
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I will point it out again. Amphetamines sometimes improve concentration and sometimes make you "jittery" which can hurt your performance, so they are not at all like steroids that help you become stronger, a permanent improvement. Steroids can also help your body heal faster from injury.
Jim Bouton addresses amphetamines in his book "Ball Four". He did say they were widely used, he said they could hurt you as well as help you.
Years ago, I used amphetamines when I worked the night shift, sometimes they worked sometimes not at all.
Comparing them to steroids is like comparing a fire cracker to a hand grenade. They both make a noise, but they are far from the same.
All you have to do is look at the numbers put up by the steroid users to see that.
Well stated. Just like felonies and misdemeanors, not all PEDs are in the same class. I think we can all reasonably agree which should be categorized as Class A, though.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
keep in mind we are not talking about prison sentences here. we are talking about the nuanced world of HOF eligibility/induction.
are you saying here that a little bit of cheating is permissible? or is slightly more cheating ok? if we put it on a number scale, would 3% cheating be acceptable? what about 17%? 33%?
then, how do we determine which PED is worth how much advantage? Who is the PED Czar who gets to make that determination?
once that determination is made, how do we conclude exactly who used, for how long and to what degree?
If PED use is cheating, how do we adjust statistics for non users?
Do we banish those from the Hall who did use? there are a number of prominent players who admit to it.
do you see where I am going with this? I think most purists bristle at any cheating that could influence stats, yet they let all players who in your words used a "misdemeanor" PED slide.
I like consistency. If someone believes using PED was cheating, that is fine. However, all players who used PED were cheaters and should be treated as such. including heroes from the golden age. otherwise, we should treat modern known users the same as golden age known users.
its easy, consistency.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I agree, drugs effect everyone differently. for some players, I am sure PED worked wonders and helped a lot. However, for others, like you said, maybe they could hurt performance.
It then stands to reason that perhaps, some Steroids/HGH/other type of PED could have hurt some players performance?
how do we differentiate between the two. because I bet if asked, almost all players would not admit PED were of any help. McGwire said as much.
I would also imagine that for those whom PEDs didn't work, like you on the night shift, they would have discontinued use?
for those whom PED did work, they would have continued use. this brings to mind Mays and Aaron. Willie was a well known abuser of amphetamine and consumed lots. I would imagine he saw some very positive effects to use as much as he did, no? Aaron, if he is to be believed, said he only used once. that being because he didn't like the effects.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
It's probably true that most, if not all, players have "cheated" in some way or another. Does this mean we tear down the HOF and say "forget it, they ALL cheated"?
As stated, some PEDs do little or nothing, and some give the user/cheater a HUGE benefit.
Amphetamines sometimes help, sometimes hurt your performance.
Anabolic steroids if taken occasionally do little or nothing for the user, but the hard core cheater who is willing to regularly inject himself with them, along with working out like a madman will become bigger, stronger, faster and heal from injury more quickly.
The result of steroids was, among other things, the single season HR (60/61) record that had stood for 71 years gets smashed by guys who without steroids probably could never hit more than 50. Eventually making the lifetime HR totals laughable.
If you cheat and it really doesn't help, you're in the wrong, but if you cheat and it ends up blowing up the record books, that is worse by far in my opinion, much worse.
Similar to the person who occasionally smokes a joint and one who shoots up heroin three times a day.
Bonds prices continue to rage higher with or without the HOF.... Pudge Rodriguez did 'em.... Jeff Bagwell admitted to it.... its a popularity contest.... Sammy Sosa is more popular than most HOFer's ..... they should all get in eventually b/c you cannot let Bagwell, Piazza and Pudge in without the others... but Bonds and Clemens not getting in keeps their names flying around every year and reminds folks of their records... I hope Barry does not get in so that every year veterans voting has to read articles about how amazing he was.... prices rise as all the supply gets saturated even 441 copies is nothing..... I know a couple collectors who own a dozen each from way back when they were much cheaper.
I noticed the graded 63 Rose rookies have exploded in price recently.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
Everything has exploded it seems. It is good for those of us that have held onto the cards but a lot of people are now feeling some pressure to sell because prices are (in some cases) life changing money.
Do you think Arod will eventually get in?