Can I legally sell my counterfeit 1889 CC Morgans?
smalltime
Posts: 170 ✭✭✭
I came across some 1889 CC Morgans a few years back. At the time I thought they were way to cheap to be true and as it turned out, PCGS would not grade them and said they are counterfeit. I would like to get my money back by selling these. Is it legal to sell them if it is disclosed they are counterfeit and not real coinage?
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Comments
Edited..... See my remarks following this post.
Yes, just make sure the potential buyers are aware. BTW, counterfeit Morgans aren’t rare and they probably won’t bring much.
Depending on when they were made, the lack of COPY may be in violation of the Hobby Protection Act. That said, I'd pose the question a different way: SHOULD you sell them? While there are counterfeits that are highly collectible (think colonial and early federal, where the counterfeits were used in commerce and are now well known), the coins you have were made simply to deceive collectors. Even if they are sold by you with full disclosure, what are the chances the buyer will turn around and sell them as genuine? You could get rid of the coins, but effectively just pass your problem down the line to someone else.
I would say you should keep them or destroy them, but don't simply let them go back into the wild. Paying tuition on a bad buy is unfortunate, but it won't help any to lead someone else astray, as well.
"Can I legally sell my counterfeit 1889 CC Morgans?"
Short answer..... No
Differentiating betwixt monetary counterfeits like the Micro-O Morgans and the fraudulent to deceive collectors counterfeits. Monetary counterfeits have a value, deceptive counterfeits do NOT IMHO. The most pricey counterfeit Micro-O Morgans are the ones that were certified by PCGS and NGC and they are a tightly held commodity and seldom get sold.
Technically, no, you cannot. That being said, it is obviously done all the time - check ebay or alibaba.... Cheers, RickO
I don’t believe so. See here: https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=6ba90b1f402763bcb0388569596c3f4b&rgn=div5&view=text&node=16:1.0.1.3.28&idno=16
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It is probably not legal. In any case you should just take your loss and destroy them. Counterfeits are a plague on the hobby.
Unless clearly marked copy, it would be illegal.
I actually have an 1893-S that is going in the melting pot as soon as I feel like scrapping my silver.
I believe you are wrong Bryce. It is against the law to sell a counterfeit US Morgan dollar that is not marked COPY as required by the HPA of 1973. It has always been illegal to manufacture or own the fake dies but the HPA made selling them illegal as well. I'm not saying that there are not fakes out there that sell but the general rule is NO it's not allowed.
bob
Interesting. Happy to be wrong. It’s happened before.
So..... there are several dealers selling contemporary counterfeits of Federal issue coins. Some of those are collectible in their own right. How to they get around this?
Is it legal to sell counterfeit dollars even if you tell the buyer?
Is it legal to sell counterfeit 100 dollar bills if you tell the buyer?
There’s an excellent chance that whoever buys them will attempt to sell them as a genuine coin on an outlet such as eBay. Do the hobby a favor and melt them or throw them into a river.
Can you get a jeweler to engrave “copy” on the rim of the coin and then it would be legal or does it have to be on either the obverse or reverse? Just curious, I’m not planning on doing this, but if legal it might be interesting for people who want to collect counterfeits.
Mr_Spud
I've got one of those too.... Probably a VF or better... I knew it when I bought it raw since it was only $50... I've had it for at least 15 years and never considered selling or destroying it... Sometimes I'll take it to a coin show for laughs... Been offered everything from melt to several grand.
§304.6 Marking requirements for imitation numismatic items.
(a) An imitation numismatic item which is manufactured in the United States, or imported into the United States for introduction into or distribution in commerce, shall be plainly and permanently marked “COPY”.
(b) The word “COPY” shall be marked upon the item legibly, conspicuously, and nondeceptively, and in accordance with the further requirements of these regulations.
(1) The word “COPY” shall appear in capital letters, in the English language.
(2) The word “COPY” shall be marked on either the obverse or the reverse surface of the item. It shall not be marked on the edge of the item.
(3) An imitation numismatic item of incusable material shall be incused with the word “COPY” in sans-serif letters having a vertical dimension of not less than two millimeters (2.0 mm) or not less than one-sixth of the diameter of the reproduction, and a minimum depth of three-tenths of one millimeter (0.3 mm) or to one-half ( 1⁄2 ) the thickness of the reproduction, whichever is the lesser. The minimum total horizontal dimension of the word “COPY” shall be six millimeters (6.0 mm) or not less than one-half of the diameter of the reproduction.
(4) An imitation numismatic item composed of nonincusable material shall be imprinted with the word “COPY” in sans-serif letters having a vertical dimension of not less than two millimeters (2.0 mm) or not less than one-sixth of the diameter of the reproduction. The minimum total horizontal dimension of the word “COPY” shall be six millimeters (6.0 mm) or not less than one-half of the diameter of the reproduction.
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=6ba90b1f402763bcb0388569596c3f4b&rgn=div5&view=text&node=16:1.0.1.3.28&idno=16
Do the environment a favor and don't thrown them into a river.
“(2) The word “COPY” shall be marked on either the obverse or the reverse surface of the item. It shall not be marked on the edge of the item.”
Ok, I guess not then, thanks.
Mr_Spud
Unless clearly marked copy, it would be illegal.
I actually have one that is going in the melting pot> @CCGGG said:
I bought it for melt as I knew it was a fake. I don't dare resell it so to the melting pot it goes.
Make sure you destroy the date and mm first. Melting pots do get searched sometimes.
My bad.
.
i'm not going to pretend to be an expert on the law and its arguable exceptions but the general rule is that anything coins/currency etc, purported to have been manufactured before a certain date (as others have cited, i believe in the 70's) are exempt from prosecution from selling/shipping across state lines and i'm somewhere deep in the language there is a legal reason why and i'm sure it makes sense. also, i'm sure there are cited examples and/or methods/committee(s) to declare which ones are which.
like with a lot of laws, knowing which ones are federal and which ones are state is probably a good thing to know.
yup
Can you? sure, why not.
Should you? no.
just my two cents.
But the question was can he sell them legally? And the answer appears to be “no”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Not legal. Wish it was enforced.
There should be enough pressure from the special interests, stakeholders and hobby/marketplace retailers to force some action.
Would like to see a large case built against the repeat offenders to serve as precedent for deterrence.
@LanceNewmanOCC said
“ i'm not going to pretend to be an expert on the law and its arguable exceptions but the general rule is that anything coins/currency etc, purported to have been manufactured before a certain date (as others have cited, i believe in the 70's) are exempt from prosecution from selling/shipping across state lines and i'm somewhere deep in the language there is a legal reason why and i'm sure it makes sense. ”
But if you make a counterfeit and the date you put on the coin is from the 1800s, then you could argue that the date is exempt because it’s from the 1800s. Or you can claim you believed it was from the 1800s. So that exemption has problems if you ask me
Mr_Spud
Just keep it as a warning. Or destroy it.
Oh, of course, without a doubt.
just morally speaking, the answer should of been obvious.
didn't word it right
Donate them to the A>N>A or other institution for educational purposes and take the tax write off
Can you encase them in lucite and put the word “Copy” on the lucite. Like this Kennedy I keep in my office at work 🤔
Mr_Spud
You can buy a steel punch that says "copy" on ebay, and then mark them and sell them legally.
If these counterfeits are "illegal" why do the certification services send them back in body bags? I believe (but not 100% sure) that if the bank detects a counterfeit bill that you are depositing (accidentally of course), they keep it and you take the loss....
Maybe the owner would like to take it back to the guy he got it from for a refund.
Good point, but it's still illegal... Banks don't do that....
I don’t claim to know about banks and counterfeit currency, but coin grading companies have no legal right to confiscate counterfeit coins.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That Kennedy looks genuine to me
It’s not counterfeit, I was wondering if you could somehow encase a counterfeit in lucite or another way that wold permanently prevent it from being cracked out and labeling it copy on the permanent slab and not directly on the coin. I just didn’t know how to say that other than showing my Kennedy. But it would be too much trouble except if the piece was a super special counterfeit, not Chinese Morgan’s, but some famous ones.
Mr_Spud
it has more to do with the method of manufacture, flan composition and proven examples. i'm not saying it is 100% but it is up there. also, as stated it would probably help to read the legal jargon verbatim.
This is probably a silly question, but could they be contemporaneous counterfeits? Probably Chinese counterfeits?
Louis Armstrong
I would not recommend it. Several years ago, i used to sell counterfeit $1 and $2 1/2 golds in the shop for gold weight price. lebanons and struck counterfiets. Then i found out a few of the customers were buying them, and then taking them across town to the other shops and sticking it too them. So after that, i ended up just bending them up and putting in with the scrap jewelry.
I think some of these 89-cc's will end up in a unknowing hands and be a detriment to the hobby, and financially crush somebody in the process.
Banks are under the jurisdiction of the federal banking authorities. Banks are part of the cash circulation enterprise of the US.
Slabbing companies are not under federal authority and not in the cash business.
Personally, i would keep it and clearly note it for my heirs or just destroy it.
One less out there for new coin collectors or if its a good copy even a more seasoned one. JMHO