My new pickup 1803 Kettle Turban Head Half Eagle. I think this might be a rarer variety
All Kettle Turban half and quarter eagles are rare but without the signature is much rarer,
I have seen them out there in holders and not even indicated as such.....but not many.
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I have been anxiously waiting for this to arrive in the mail. I have looked up all the varieties known and mine is slightly different from any known. Now it could be much rarer than any others known till now or, just not if any research info available to me.If anyone knows or can help me out I would be very grateful
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EDIT I did finally find one in a graded slab but doesn't make any mention of the signature missing. I posted it below
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Also if anyone wants to guess the grade I would love to hear it as I will be submitting to PCGS for grading right away.
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It appears to me to grade MS63/63. I just cannot capture the luster. But, who knows with grading anymore....
I've seen MS62 look terrible and a Quarter Eagle gilt grade AU58 looks better than most MS63 out there.
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The KETTLE is missing from the right of date
and does not look like any movement of metal so looks authentic.
I also learned through my research that there can be 2 different initials under the bust.
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Mine is:
Weakly struck but better than almost any other example I have seen missing the KETTLE signature.
25.3 mm dia.
diag. reeded
1.3 mm thick
weight 6.2 g.
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There are no references that I know of that give the weight or thickness.
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Now....if anyone can make out the initials I would be very thankful. I can't for the life of me!
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I cannot see where the date was removed so, I'm saying missing or die filled.
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Below are pages from Fauver's book. Rulau said his studies are convincing.
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I thought to add my other Half Eagle graded MS63
Stars and clouds are different on the reverse
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I was able to find another seemingly identical already graded MS62 for comparison.
When I overlaid them and changed the opacity in the program everything lines up.
Now it might be a question of what my grade is compared to the MS62 and to see if I can get a distinction.
Its labeled as a** J-C1803-3 Kettle & Sons** which is the same as my toned example so either PCGS does
not distinguish one variety or another. Seems to me that having KETTLE on it or not would be important enough
to get its own number.
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
Comments
Happened to be tiptoeing through the 1922 Numismatist today and saw this comment:
Disgust indeed! Philistine!
Fascinating alternate to the regular US issue. At least Mr. Kettle didn't find himself having to use "1802-dated" dies to make his product.
I have never seen a Kettle coin without the Kettle and know nothing about grading gaming tokens...that said while your NEWP looks nice it doesn't look MS...I will be interested to hear what PCGS has to say...
I am inspired by your passion to figure out this mysterious variety!
A genuine 1803 $5 is 8.75 grams.
A first for me ... never seen one.
@coinsarefun ... Thanks for the information/history of this piece Stef... I am not familiar with these at all. I do like the image on the obverse... The features are more 'female' than found on so many coins of this period. Cheers, RickO
Thanks everyone for your comments
@CaptHenway Thanks for posting that........I have a "dime" being graded right now ATS. PCGS has one graded with a TV.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed it straight grades!
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Thanks @ricko I agree
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And.....for everyone overnight I did manage to find a match that PCGS has graded but nothing that mentions the variety.
I posted it in the original
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
Awesome post!!!
I was struggling to find another example with mine's reverse:
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It looks like yours is a possible match but, do you know if your edge is plain or diagonal reeded
like mine? Also, what is the diameter? Lastly, can you weigh yours? Just curious if they vary.....
I can’t really tell if it was gilt brass or brass?
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Later today I will overlay yours on mine to see if it’s an exact match and let you know.
Thanks so much for posting yours!
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
Has to be the same set of dies. The edge is a different KETTLE of fish!
Not gilt; weight 5.3 grams.
Edge is rather smooth except in an area where there are several angled "grip marks".
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Can you measure the diameter too? That would help greatly as there are 2 different diameters
known.
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
I finally got this one into PCGS for grading. Somewhat disappointed it graded an AU58 with
no mention of gilt but……it is protected for now and imaged so I’m good.
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
Beautiful Kettle token @coinsarefun. The "gilt" notation on the label isn't really needed, since your example is heavily gilt and quite obvious. PCGS did a great job on your TV, imho.
Also, your token does appear to be better than AU58. I am guessing that the discoloration on Miss Liberty's apple cheek swayed the graders. Not really fair, since that's the highpoint on the obverse. Overall it looks Unc to me.
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Thanks so much. I feel so lucky to own several beautiful examples of the half eagle, quarter eagle and even
A silvered quarter which is nicknamed “dime” only one has been graded here at PCGS and one in NGC. The NGC
example is mine.
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
A silvered quarter which is nicknamed “dime” only one has been graded here at PCGS and one in NGC. The NGC
example is mine.
Can you please post a photo? Never heard of such a thing and now I am very curious.
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Sure. This is a link to the only PCGS example graded
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1803-tkn-2-5-j-c1803-kettle-sons-gaming-token-birmingham-eng/532647
Edit to add………the auction link which the PCGS example was sold/bought.
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-6YB61/1803-capped-bust-right-quarter-eagle-kettle-token-judd-c1803-2-pollock-8010-silvered-brass-plain-edge-coin-alignment-ms-63-pcgs
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And this is mine NGC MS61
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
Wow @coinsarefun. Thanks for sharing. That PCGS example that sold at Stacks-Bowers for $500 seems cheap. I was not aware of the "silver dime" variants, and I also did not know that Kettle tokens have Judd and Pollock variety attributions. Very interesting and now I need to dig deeper. Very cool pieces of history!