Help with 1880-S Morgan Error
Bruce7789
Posts: 397 ✭✭✭✭
I was given this coin because it was not up to a young lady's standards for her Morgan collection as it was "contaminated with tar or something". When I put it under my microscope, what she had though was a black tarry substance or other contaminant was actually black and neon blue marking that I would say were related to heat around a large gouge in the metal and the "S" in "Pluribus" stamped right in the middle of it. Not being overly familiar with Error coins I decided to see if I could get some input from those of you with more experience. I have several questions about the coin. First, since the "S" goes to the bottom of the gouge didn't the gouge already have to be there when it was stamped? Why the heat marks at the S. end of the gouge? and finally is this something worth sending to PCGS before I give it back to her? Take a look and tell me what you think!
The whole Obverse:
The gouge and the letter "S":
Notice the "S" drops off at the edges of the gouge?
Comments
I might be able to diagnose it if I had it under my stereo microscope,
but I'm not able to fully understand the 3 D shapes from your photos.
It might be a "struck through" type of error, if the edges of the gouge in the field up and right of the S are not raised.
Sure looks like a strike thru to me. The discoloration could be a chemical reaction with the strike thru object as it vaporized. IMO. Peace Roy
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Planchet flaw.
Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
We will need better pictures to properly diagnose the issue... The close up is too blurry....Cheers, RickO
Better photos needed to be able to tell for sure what it is.
Based on what you have posted, it is likely a strike as others have mentioned. The 'black and neon' likely is not from 'heat', but rather toning (oxidation or similar chemical reaction) from the impurity that was struck into the coin.
The photos are very different but it appears as if it’s a small improper metal mixture area- and possibly a struck- through- Better photos are needed
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
i've seen this coin posted recently somewhere. here or vamworld?
The coin is an extremely common date Morgan that is not worth slabbing. The "error" gives the coin negative eye-appeal. Would anyone pay a premium for such an "error"? I doubt it but in the current "error and variety" craze I could be wrong. Personally, I wouldn't want the coin.
It was posted over in Vamworld when I first got it. Then while moving, I forgot about it until I got everything settled out and decided to have another go to try and figure out how it was created. I knew it was a strikethru, but the top of the S dives down into the gouge at the edges. How, If the die struck flat, how does the S dive off when it crosses the edges of the gouge?
Also the S goes clear to the bottom of the somewhat deep gouge which would seem to me that the hole was on the planchet and somehow the S got stamped into it. You probably can't see it,, but the hole is about 1/3 of the coin deep.
AnywaY, thanks everyone for the input.
OK, I think I may not be explaining my question so with the pictures above will try and explain what has me puzzled. First of all, I'm not trying to create a new error, don't care to sell the coin, it's not mine, and would just like to understand how it was created. As far as having it encapsulated, it is fairly high grade and it seemed kind of unique and thought she would appreciate it. Her first encapsuulated coin. BTW, she is 12 YO.
OK?
With a flat Die surface with an inclused, S engraved on it and a flat planchet with a gouge in it, When the two flat surfaces impact each other, how does the inclused, stamped S get to the bottom of the hole and still stay perfectly formed? Also how does the top of the S angle off into the gouge at the edges of the gouge. There is no way, with the two surfaces (the die and the planchet) impacting each other, the die could have penetrated into the hole.
Just thought someone with more experience might have a idea of how it was created.
The photo's above, while not good are the best angle of showing you what is going on. You can see the S tapering off at the top and that it goes full depth of the hole.
Just trying to understand how it happened. But thanks for the input!
once you see more strike-through/lamination type errors, it will make sense.- we've seen hundreds of different iterations of these types of common errors posted here and some of us have seen thousands across all type coins usa and foreign.
your large image kinda makes it look like some solder/heat damage. - i have came across a few morgans that had solder splatter like they were sitting around in some smelting operation and a few pieces landed on the coin(s) and then stuck there creating a bit of normal blue-ish coloration in that area.
Actually, under higher ( I only have 20X except for a cheap micro camera) it does kind of look like the hole was melted into the coin. the edges have that smoothed over, melted look and the neon Blue doesn't look like normal oxidation. But then I'm no expert. Thanks for the input. Even so, how did the S get to the bottom of the hole? Never mind, have wasted enough of everyones time!
Bruce, just better pics not larger. Correct you lighting to make it look like it is (not orange).
bob
. Even so, how did the S get to the bottom of the hole? Never mind, have wasted enough of everyones' time!
as simple as it seems, if you have some play-doh or something similar and some cookie/jello molds, heck, ice cube trays and some free time, you can create a similar effect. a strike-through and de-lamination error yield kind of the same look, whereas there are depression(s).
the S or any other device doesn't have to get to the bottom of any error, it is already there. with de-lamination, the coin is struck as normal with some "weak/inconsistent" metal that falls off after striking, sometimes before and those have 2 different looks usually.
strike through has some junk that takes part of the spot the metal would normally occupy, "some" being the key word, usually, unless it is a big strike through.
with a small strike through and/or de-lamination, there is no reason why the S would not be there as the devices and not pressed into a flan/blank but instead one big chuck of metal is "formed" into/around the devices but all that happens is deformation, not removal or prevention, except in extreme circumstances, which we do see from time to time.
if you ever see "dropped letters", that is more where your mind is at right now but that is an extreme version of what possibly happened here. hard to tell from the images which one it is as strike-throughs and de-lamination or lamination-type errors can look quite similar, especially from blurry images.
since your coin has that darkened area, there is a chance there is something else entirely going on, nothing noteworthy comes to mind though. it is possible it is all simply pmd.
in the future, even with blurry images, post obv/rev pics. never know what the side we can't see may tell us.
edited to add a link with erorrs and pics: LCR
Just wanted to take the time to thank everyone, particularly you, Mr. Newman for time, trouble and advice. I spent quite a bit of time this afternoon looking at the coin through the microscope and through the Micro camera lens and finally got 1 more image from a different direction, but the reflections off the coin made it difficult to photograph. I'm going to post this Photo, but really don't expect a response, but can tell you that there is no way this is PMD.
Thanks again for everything.
Bruce