Uncirculated vs. circulating coins - why are both considered MS by TPGs?
shaney777
Posts: 38 ✭✭
Per definitions on the Mint website, a coin from an uncirculated set is on a burnished blank and underwent a special process to be struck. So-called circulating coins are those from Mint bags/rolls, along with a ATB quarters set. With this in mind, why do TPGs not differentiate between the two types of coins? Satin coins from uncirculated sets are considered SP, so why aren't all uncirculated set coins considered SP? Uncirculated undergoes a special process and is on a burnished blank, so those surely aren't the same as the circulating Mint roll/bag coins or UNC coins from a third party roll. This means that a top pop MS is likely to be the one that has undergone the special process, but since there's no different designation, these have the unfair advantage in value and registry sets. Top grade circulating coins should be worth more than uncirculated, yet they aren't because they're all lumped together as MS.
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This is a good question, but one I do not have an answer for. I hope someone can shed some further light on it for us.
I actually didn't realize that newer uncirculated sets had coins that were created differently.
I do know that uncirculated coins in these sets from the past did not undergo special preparation (with the exception of the 65-67 SMS coins, which are designated as such when they can be), but I'm not sure when that changed.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Burnished is a special process for only a small percentage of coins, it is a method of production that is not done for all coins. Because it is a special type of production is why those coins get the SP designation. Uncirculated is used to define coins that the mint produces that have not been used (or so lightly used as to be indistinguishable from one right off the press) in general commerce, uncirculated is not a method of production.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
It shocked me as well, and a newcomer to the beginner FB group just brought it to my attention. Forum user cladking even says that uncirculated coins are struck in a different press! Apparently they're specially handled, cleaned, and dried. They're struck slower, with higher pressure, and are the first coins struck by a die. cladking says 1968 is the year when they become of higher quality.
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The Mint website seems to suggest that all uncirculated set coins are on burnished blanks. Here is a quote supposedly from the Mint site but back in the day: "uncirculated
The term "uncirculated" may have three different meanings when applied to a coin.
First, it can refer to the particular manufacturing process by which a coin is made.
Second, it can be used as a grade when referring to a coin's degree of preservation and quality of the strike.
Or third, "uncirculated" can point to the fact that a coin has not been used in everyday commerce.
At the United States Mint, we use the term uncirculated when referring to the special coining process used to make the coin, which gives it a satin finish. Uncirculated coins are manufactured using the same process as circulating coins, but with quality enhancements such as slightly higher coining force, early strikes from dies, special cleaning after stamping, and special packaging. Uncirculated coins may vary to some degree because of blemishes, toning, or slight imperfections."
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SP, and proof, for that matter, refer to a method of manufacture, not a condition.
MS refers to condition for business strikes. Despite being struck on special presses, mint set coins are still business strikes.
While mint set coins should generally be of higher quality than normal circulation strikes, I am not sure any definitive and reliable distinction can be made based on an independent assessment.
That's how I see it, anyway.
Thank you @shaney777 . I am not a modern collector, and so I have not paid much attention, but reading what you say @cladking says makes sense.
To me that would suggest the 65 to 67 SMS Sets became part of the learning process (when the Mint also didn't strike proofs), and since they were successful in their own way, the procedure continued, albeit modified. And the backlash of not producing proofs got them to rethink that decision.
Hopefully @cladking and other posters will chime in more.
And, while finding pop tops in the wild may be more difficult, as the undesignated "SMS" (if you will) has a much greater probability, I would imagine the specialists can tell the difference in the coins based on what you said. That suggests, at least to my mind, that a true "made for commerce" coin that reached Gem/Superb status would eventually outclass the "SMS" coins.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Yes coin produced for and placed into uncirculated sets today do get special handling and are produced slightly differently than coins made for everyday commerce use. But as you posted this was not always true so the term uncirculated was always used by numismatists in the manor that I explained in my prior post. Also once those coins from mint sets are removed from the sets it is not always easy to distinguish them from coins made for commerce use as even into the early 2000's the coins in mint sets did not have the satin or burnished finish that is applied to some today. Once the burnished finish was started by the mint numismatics began to use the SP designation to identify those. Lastly the terminology of the mint is (and does not need to be) not the same as that used by coin collectors and numismatics in every case.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
you have to visually differentiate a MS coin from the wild and a coin from a Mint set. the satin finish coins allowed that to a large degree.
Yes, this is what I am wondering about. I guess - WHY would they look about the same when there is so much different done with them? That really confuses me.
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That is very smart thinking. I'd say SMS are very similar to uncirculated. One thing that confuses me is cladking states that in theory, a circulating coin can be identical in quality to an uncirculated. This really just doesn't make sense when considering all the special treatment with uncirculated, does it?
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Yes, I have read in forums that even sometimes satin coins are difficult to distinguish from circulating, and these should look (I think?) further apart from circulating than uncirculated. So somehow all of this special treatment probably doesn't do much other than raise the grade a few points.
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I would think that unless the third party grader actually removed it from a set there would be no real way to tell the difference. Think of it as those "Emergency" ASE's. Just my thoughts.
@shaney777 You may want to distinguish your questions and statements differently. Actually we all may need to distinguish these a little differently going forward.
Hopefully this thread gets more legs and traction through the weekend.
Circulated and Uncirculated are numismatic terms based on condition, for what are seem typically referred to as "business strike" coins. These are coins "for circulation", or "for commerce" as I like to say.
Since SMS, Satin Finish and other special "for collector set" coins are made using different techniques, possibly with differently prepared dies and even differently operated presses, maybe we want to say these are "not intended for commerce", and therefore not true "business strikes".
Proof Coins are specially prepared dies and planchets, and different striking characteristics too, and so these too are also "not intended for commerce".
Maybe someday, specially prepared "business strike examples" and proofs will be collected together, and true, "for commerce" business strikes will be collected separately.
I know which Gem/Superb coins I would want then, and they won't be the specially prepared ones if we can tell the difference.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
It all gets back to method of manufacture. Normal mint sets (not the satin finish ones) are made the same way as business/circulating coins. Yes, mint set coins are treated better, but the process is the same.
This is a very interesting thread. I hope someone more knowledgeable than I can confirm or correct the following comments.
Although some of the discussion above suggests that I am wrong, I would have thought that beginning with 1968, there have been three eras in US mint sets:
1968 - 2004, when mint set coins were no different from those that went into circulation. This is perhaps a casual observation -- many of the mint set coins I have, at least from the earlier part of this era, do not appear at all special!
2005 - 2010, when mint set coins had a satin finish, very different from circulating coins, and easily distinguishable by PCGS.
2011 - , when mint set coins are very similar to circulating coins, but are struck with greater force, perhaps on specially prepared planchets.
As others have said above, even in the 2011 - era, PCGS may not feel confident that they can easily distinguish a mint set coins from a very pristine coin that was made for circulation.
@pursuitofliberty said: "Maybe someday, specially prepared "business strike examples" and proofs will be collected together"
Thanks for mentioning this! I'm actually putting together a complete set of silver (90, 40, and 99) Kennedy halves, which combines ordinary brilliant proofs, SMS coins, matte finishes, enhanced uncirculated coins, and reverse proofs.
A year ago, I thought the Kennedy series was boring. I've completely changed my mind. (The restoration of the portrait in 2014 was especially remarkable)
I believe that for a very long time (not just post 2011) mint sets were struck on slower presses and supposedly given special handling.
forum roll hunters and submitters were quite frustrated back then when roll hunted finds came back SF.
@MsMorrisine said: "forum roll hunters and submitters were quite frustrated back then when roll hunted finds came back SF."
Yes, that must have been more than a bit frustrating. (pop eg - Oregon 2005P: SP68 - 848 graded, MS68 - only 17 graded!
Personally, I was not at all disappointed when the mint discontinued the satin finish unc. sets. Now if we can get them to discontinue the satin finish on modern commems ...