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Should the ban on melting pre-1983 copper cents be lifted?

rec78rec78 Posts: 5,675 ✭✭✭✭✭

In the 1960's the ban on melting silver coins only lasted a few years. The copper plated zinc cents have been minted for almost 40 years. The so-called "coin shortage" of the past 8 months or so, is over, even though some businesses wont admit it. The government is most likely more concerned about the environmental damage from the melting process, rather than a new coin shortage these days. I think it is time to lift the ban. I just got rid of my hoard though.

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Comments

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Just spend them... There are Lincoln cent collectors out there trying to fill albums...Cheers, RickO

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,296 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes although there is probably melting going on already either in the US or in foreign countries after being exported. This is a very difficult law to enforce.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • TurtleCatTurtleCat Posts: 4,589 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It was always of questionable legality that they banned it. It’s your cent, you can mutilate it as you like. Which, to me, includes melting. I’m sure it happens all the time in spite of the banning.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2021 7:55AM

    The ban should be lifted but the new cents should be stopped first.

    Once cents are out of circulation, it will be easy to lift the ban.

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,296 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:
    The ban should be lifted but the new cents should be stopped first.

    Once cents are out of circulation, it will be easy to lift the ban.

    The only ones worth melting are the ones made of copper which haven't been made since 1982. No one will want to melt the copper plated zinc cents.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2021 8:43AM

    @PerryHall said:

    @Zoins said:
    The ban should be lifted but the new cents should be stopped first.

    Once cents are out of circulation, it will be easy to lift the ban.

    The only ones worth melting are the ones made of copper which haven't been made since 1982. No one will want to melt the copper plated zinc cents.

    Agreed, but I'm not sure if that's too nuanced here ;)

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,614 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There's really no benefit to melting them. The cost of transportation and smelting outweighs the copper value over face value.

  • coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 10,713 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What is your plan after you melt them? I don't know the regs where you live but here if I attempt to sell copper to a metal recycling yard I have to fill out paperwork on where the copper came from due to all the copper thieves. I have never attempted to sell copper to a coin dealer or jeweler, can they buy a copper ingot without any documentation?

    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,614 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinbuf said:
    What is your plan after you melt them? I don't know the regs where you live but here if I attempt to sell copper to a metal recycling yard I have to fill out paperwork on where the copper came from due to all the copper thieves. I have never attempted to sell copper to a coin dealer or jeweler, can they buy a copper ingot without any documentation?

    Depends on the state, probably, but there generally aren't restrictions on copper ingots. That said, I don't know of many that would want them.

    Local market maker pays $2 per pound for silver plate which is copper underneath. That is, of course, well back of copper value and he gets some silver in the refining process. So, do the math:

    There's 150 cents per pound. With $3 per pound copper, you could make $1.50 per pound. But they only want to pay $2 per pound. So, you can make 50 cents per pound. How many pounds are you going to transport and what is the cost of transportation? It's just not a money-maker.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2021 9:11AM

    @coinbuf said:
    What is your plan after you melt them? I don't know the regs where you live but here if I attempt to sell copper to a metal recycling yard I have to fill out paperwork on where the copper came from due to all the copper thieves. I have never attempted to sell copper to a coin dealer or jeweler, can they buy a copper ingot without any documentation?

    What about turning them into copper planchets to be minted into new copper rounds :)

  • coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 10,713 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @coinbuf said:
    What is your plan after you melt them? I don't know the regs where you live but here if I attempt to sell copper to a metal recycling yard I have to fill out paperwork on where the copper came from due to all the copper thieves. I have never attempted to sell copper to a coin dealer or jeweler, can they buy a copper ingot without any documentation?

    What about turning them into copper planchets to be minted into new copper rounds :)

    Do you have the equipment to create proper planchets?

    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
  • coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 10,713 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @coinbuf said:
    What is your plan after you melt them? I don't know the regs where you live but here if I attempt to sell copper to a metal recycling yard I have to fill out paperwork on where the copper came from due to all the copper thieves. I have never attempted to sell copper to a coin dealer or jeweler, can they buy a copper ingot without any documentation?

    Depends on the state, probably, but there generally aren't restrictions on copper ingots. That said, I don't know of many that would want them.

    Local market maker pays $2 per pound for silver plate which is copper underneath. That is, of course, well back of copper value and he gets some silver in the refining process. So, do the math:

    There's 150 cents per pound. With $3 per pound copper, you could make $1.50 per pound. But they only want to pay $2 per pound. So, you can make 50 cents per pound. How many pounds are you going to transport and what is the cost of transportation? It's just not a money-maker.

    Agreed on the low profit margin; as a dealer would you want the risk of buying a home smelted ingot, by that I mean how would you know the fineness of the ingot.

    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
  • Tom147Tom147 Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not just cost of transportation. Cost of smelting it down and ones time also have to be figured into the equation.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,614 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Tom147 said:
    Not just cost of transportation. Cost of smelting it down and ones time also have to be figured into the equation.

    That's true, of course. But there was an article a few years ago when the ban was implemented that discussed how just transportation made it unprofitable. I forget the details, but he had a fully loaded truck travelling X miles to a refinery and at $3 per pound it just didn't pay.

  • rec78rec78 Posts: 5,675 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If there is any profit from smelting them down, someone will think of a way to make it. I remember when my dad sold silver coins at 6% over face value to a melter in Philadelphia in the late 1960's (I think his name was Pep Levin). Only 6% over face, and in one summer we made enough money to purchase a new snowmobile. Back then the cost of a new snowmobile was about $600. $600 went quite far in the late 1960's.There are enough copper cents to make it worthwhile for someone to do it.

    image
  • 3stars3stars Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Then there is the other problem of copper cents not being 100% copper

    Previous transactions: Wondercoin, goldman86, dmarks, Type2
  • Tom147Tom147 Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭✭✭

    IMO at $ 3.00 per pound, IF one could get that price, given the cost of acquiring a bulk amount of cents @ $ 1.50 per pound, transporting to a smelting site, time sorting zinc plated from copper, smelting costs, transporting to the buyer. i just don't see this being a profitable venture.

  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,638 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I assume that the Chinese would back a cargo ship up to the dock in every major port and invite people to bring their copper cents for a modest profit. I am sure they'd find takers. :*

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2021 11:20AM

    @coinbuf said:

    @Zoins said:

    @coinbuf said:
    What is your plan after you melt them? I don't know the regs where you live but here if I attempt to sell copper to a metal recycling yard I have to fill out paperwork on where the copper came from due to all the copper thieves. I have never attempted to sell copper to a coin dealer or jeweler, can they buy a copper ingot without any documentation?

    What about turning them into copper planchets to be minted into new copper rounds :)

    Do you have the equipment to create proper planchets?

    I know people that do and I have pieces struck from such planchets :)

  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TurtleCat said:
    It was always of questionable legality that they banned it. It’s your cent, you can mutilate it as you like. Which, to me, includes melting. I’m sure it happens all the time in spite of the banning.

    Where on the Treasury website does it say that ownership of a coin received in change passes on to you?

  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,638 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BAJJERFAN said:

    @TurtleCat said:
    It was always of questionable legality that they banned it. It’s your cent, you can mutilate it as you like. Which, to me, includes melting. I’m sure it happens all the time in spite of the banning.

    Where on the Treasury website does it say that ownership of a coin received in change passes on to you?

    Where does it say that it does not? :)

    My general understanding is that paper money is under the control ("owbership"?) of the govt but not coins.

    Consider the laws against defacement: it is illegal to destroy currency but not coins (except for the aforementioned temporary ban on melting cents and nickels).

  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2021 5:57PM

    I'll put on my Secret Service badge and come knocking on your door and request you turn over your US coin collection to me because you don't own it, the govt. does! :#

    @BAJJERFAN said:

    @TurtleCat said:
    It was always of questionable legality that they banned it. It’s your cent, you can mutilate it as you like. Which, to me, includes melting. I’m sure it happens all the time in spite of the banning.

    Where on the Treasury website does it say that ownership of a coin received in change passes on to you?

  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @amwldcoin said:
    I'll put on my SS badge and come knocking on your door and request you turn over your US coin collection to me because you don't own it, the govt. does! :#

    @BAJJERFAN said:

    @TurtleCat said:
    It was always of questionable legality that they banned it. It’s your cent, you can mutilate it as you like. Which, to me, includes melting. I’m sure it happens all the time in spite of the banning.

    Where on the Treasury website does it say that ownership of a coin received in change passes on to you?

    Go right ahead, but prepare to leave empty handed.

  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2021 12:37PM

    @JBK said:

    @BAJJERFAN said:

    @TurtleCat said:
    It was always of questionable legality that they banned it. It’s your cent, you can mutilate it as you like. Which, to me, includes melting. I’m sure it happens all the time in spite of the banning.

    Where on the Treasury website does it say that ownership of a coin received in change passes on to you?

    Where does it say that it does not? :)

    My general understanding is that paper money is under the control ("owbership"?) of the govt but not coins.

    Consider the laws against defacement: it is illegal to destroy currency but not coins (except for the aforementioned temporary ban on melting cents and nickels).

    It's just a simple question. I looked and couldn't find anything either way. Have the ban/s on melting ever been challenged in court?

  • TurtleCatTurtleCat Posts: 4,589 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BAJJERFAN said:

    @TurtleCat said:
    It was always of questionable legality that they banned it. It’s your cent, you can mutilate it as you like. Which, to me, includes melting. I’m sure it happens all the time in spite of the banning.

    Where on the Treasury website does it say that ownership of a coin received in change passes on to you?

    I'm pretty sure we aren't renting or leasing coinage... There isn't a license issues by the government that indicates that all coins and currency are theirs and you're just allowed the right of temporary usage. Even today I don't think that would fly.

  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TurtleCat said:

    @BAJJERFAN said:

    @TurtleCat said:
    It was always of questionable legality that they banned it. It’s your cent, you can mutilate it as you like. Which, to me, includes melting. I’m sure it happens all the time in spite of the banning.

    Where on the Treasury website does it say that ownership of a coin received in change passes on to you?

    I'm pretty sure we aren't renting or leasing coinage... There isn't a license issues by the government that indicates that all coins and currency are theirs and you're just allowed the right of temporary usage. Even today I don't think that would fly.

    I was just curious at what point the fed turns over ownership to someone else.

  • TurtleCatTurtleCat Posts: 4,589 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BAJJERFAN said:

    @TurtleCat said:

    @BAJJERFAN said:

    @TurtleCat said:
    It was always of questionable legality that they banned it. It’s your cent, you can mutilate it as you like. Which, to me, includes melting. I’m sure it happens all the time in spite of the banning.

    Where on the Treasury website does it say that ownership of a coin received in change passes on to you?

    I'm pretty sure we aren't renting or leasing coinage... There isn't a license issues by the government that indicates that all coins and currency are theirs and you're just allowed the right of temporary usage. Even today I don't think that would fly.

    I was just curious at what point the fed turns over ownership to someone else.

    I don’t know but I assume it is when it is sent to the Federal Reserve. Then again when it goes to banks and people.

  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you have true unencumbered ownership then there should be no restriction as to melting or any other act as I see it.

  • TurtleCatTurtleCat Posts: 4,589 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BAJJERFAN said:
    If you have true unencumbered ownership then there should be no restriction as to melting or any other act as I see it.

    That’s how I see it. When the mint instituted their ban, many claimed they had no basis to do it. I still think they don’t even though they pushed it through. It does explicitly exclude war nickels but technically any nickel or cent ever made by the mint is covered.

  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You made the comment "it's your cent" so I was merely playing devil's advocate and asking how do you know it's yours?

  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,638 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BAJJERFAN said:

    @JBK said:

    @BAJJERFAN said:

    @TurtleCat said:
    It was always of questionable legality that they banned it. It’s your cent, you can mutilate it as you like. Which, to me, includes melting. I’m sure it happens all the time in spite of the banning.

    Where on the Treasury website does it say that ownership of a coin received in change passes on to you?

    Where does it say that it does not? :)

    My general understanding is that paper money is under the control ("owbership"?) of the govt but not coins.

    Consider the laws against defacement: it is illegal to destroy currency but not coins (except for the aforementioned temporary ban on melting cents and nickels).

    It's just a simple question. I looked and couldn't find anything either way. Have the ban/s on melting ever been challenged in court?

    I've never heard of a prosecution, and I suspect they would not bother with small timers. I am not even sure the rule is 100% legal or enforceable. If they wanted to go after someone they could just overcharge and settle on a plea bargain.

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