Is there any educational benefit buying problem coins
yspsales
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Before the pandemic, my plan was to take more ANA courses.
Wondering if buying a few problem coins slabbed by the major TPG's ( details, whizzed, cleaned etc... ) can provide any educational benefit?
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If you want to study or compare them to uncleaned, unwhizzed and regular grade coins that I would say yes. Just remember that impaired coins are very difficult to sell for the most part, unless heavily discounted or are rare coins.
I’ve learned a lot by buying a few problem coins that I didn’t realize were problem coins.
Educate at auction lot viewing, worth the plane ticket.
You often get an education when you try to sell them.
Whizzed???
100% agree.
To Think out of the box or avoiding the herd could enlighten you about the same ole , same ole.
"Time to make the donuts" so to speak.
Whizzed or cleaned ... You should know better.
As for the off the charts, its so cool. Although you must research the 5 Who, What, When, Where and How.
As best as possible.
As for selling... Ethics will tell the tale.
I hate thinking that deep !
If the series is cheap, then it can be insightful. If you're paying real money (albeit less than a problem-free coin) I'd say wait until you can see some in person for free at lot viewing, a class, a dealer's table, etc. Unless you want to acquire problem coins (I would not, but to each his own if he knows what he's doing) I can't see a good reason for spending real money on them.
Just follow threads on this forum that revolve around "details" coins. Don't waste your money buying someone else's problems that become your problems when you buy them.
I think some pictures would be better but that's just me. Good luck with that
I would say yes - as long as your a buying them knowing they are problem coins. I actually love holed coins and think they are a great value for the dates.
IMO, knowledge is power, a rare coin with a hole is still a rare coin, especially if the hole is as old as the coin. I have dug several early reales that are holed. I'm okay with that. Peace Roy
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Yes, how hard it is to get rid of junk coins!
There are many educational resources that show coins with the various problems. Also training seminars at major shows (when they return) are excellent sources of information. That being said, there are a lot of coins with issues that appear in pocket change....save them as examples when you find them. Other than that, I would not spend good funds just to have examples of defective coins. Cheers, RickO
I think looking at pictures are best because problem coins will be hard to sell later and you will sell because you will get tired of that coin.
Thank you for the feedback!
Think of it as a twist on buying the book, but in this case the problem.
Does anyone know how many details designations NGC, PCGS, and ANACS label?
Pandemic blew up my educational plans. Sheer boredom and desire to learn has inspired this trek.
Based on the enjoyable experience of the ANA grading class, I wanted to create a self taught course.
Do they (or how does) ANA do a correspondence course on problem coins?
With no local active clubs or mentors, I am trying to use this downtime wisely.
Bought a generic AU Buffalo nickel, labeled cleaned for less than $20 shipped.
A box of 20 would be a few hundred dollars tops.
Cost is minimal and secondary in the long term if there is something to be learned.
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I’d say go for it as long as you are not spending a ton. Focus on the more common coins, especially those with silver and you will always have a floor close to the melt value (for example, a details graded Franklin or Washington Quarter can be had slabbed for not much over the price you’d pay for generic 90% silver; if you get tired of the set, you can sell for junk silver prices and not lose much and maybe even make something if spot rises). Seeing the problem coins in hand and having a reference set could easily pay off in the long term as you learn from the experience.
If it's not a lot, it can be worthwhile. There's only so much you can learn from photos.
Here is a link to a list of details coins from PCGS (scroll to the bottom):
(Note that within some codes there could be several different ways the problem is described)
https://www.pcgsasia.com/standards?l=en
And an article with some more info:
https://www.pcgs.com/news/no-grade-coins-pt4
https://www.pcgs.com/news/no-grade-coins-pt5
https://www.pcgs.com/news/no-grade-coins-pt6
Starting a list for posterity and future reference...
Environmental Effects
Bronze Disease
Environmental Damage
Stained
PVC
Excessive Toning
Cleaning
Brushed
Burnished
Improperly Cleaned - generic as to unskilled and exact method used
Polished
Spot Removals
Whizzed
Wiped
Altered Color
Artificial Color
Artificial Toning
Mechanical Damage
Bent
Chopmarked
Countermarked
Damaged - catchall term
Obverse Damage
Reverse Damage
Rim Damage
Edge Damage
Grafitti
Impaired
Mounted
Mutilated
Scratched
Soldered
Wheel Marks
Holed or Plugged
Mechanical Repairs
Chopmark Repair
Mount Removed
Plugged
Re-Engraved
Removed from jewelry
Rim Filing
Rim Repair
Smoothing
Tooled
Mint-Made Irregularities
Planchet Flaw
Clipped Planchet
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None.
The education you get for buying problem coins is .....
Not to buy problem coins!
There's absolutely an educational benefit. But try to avoid making it an overly expensive one.
As far as looking at on-line pictures (instead) - that can help, but often, cleaning and other problems are undetectable in images. So having the opportunity to study problem coins in-hand can be a much better learning experience.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Jimnight said:
None.
No unless u want be end user.
You should buy investment grade PCGS coins MS 63 and above.
There is definitely an educational benefit from buying problem coins. But, the tuition cost is too high for my liking, so thankfully; I've only done it a small number of times.
I prefer to learn from others advice and experience. Also, by viewing both in hand and online.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
To make it very simple ...
So, someone has a problem.
You pay that person money for their problem to become your problem.
Now, you have a problem.
I'm not sure why everyone is throwing a fit about problem coins. Problem coins sell at heavy discounts. But that also means you are buying them at heavy discounts. And, depending on what the defect is, it is not that hard to sell them...heavily discounted.
I've bought and sold hundreds of problem coins. You buy 'em cheap, you sell 'em cheap. There are all kinds of people who buy them for legitimate purposes other than "investments":
1. Education - as the OP
2. Hole fillers on a budget
3. Jewelry makers
4. Artists
5. Advertising
6. Metal detector clubs - they bury them so their members can find them in "the hunt"
7. Coin carvers
Problem coins are a way of life in the EAC world. I buy them all the time.
Early American Copper, Bust and Seated.
There are numismatic benefits with "problem coins" that can include terminal die states and new die marriage discoveries, remember the ex Lord M holed coin that turned into the discovery of 1806 O.129.
Ed Price had million dollar coins but looked through junk boxes and low-grade coins that others would turn their noses up at. He was rewarded with two new die marriage discoveries including the 1803 JR-5 dime, which expanded the collecting universe of early dimes.
It astounds me that someone could answer the OP's question with a "no" or a "none". And yet, those were two of the replies.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
This is true, but there's a catch for in-hand. The same problem can look different on different coins, whether it's due to severity, the method by which the problem was imparted, the type of coin, etc. For instance, heavily cleaned copper may stand out much more than lightly cleaned silver, and freshly cleaned silver versus long-ago-cleaned and now retoned silver will look different. You can buy a small sample, but to see the breadth of what's out there will require a huge outlay. I think that's where having another in-person source--a class, a show, lot viewing--really has its value.
No disagreement there.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
There is a huge benefit. I have been gathering slabbed "problem coins" for years and sharing them with local club members and through offering an afternoon course on detecting problem coins. You can learn a lot along the way and discussing the coins with other collectors/dealers is also beneficial.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
One man's junk is another man's treasure.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
I think so. I've bought problem coins because I wanted to study the problems in hand. Just don't spend too much money.
This is quite true and I probably should have included it on my list as it is so common. Even major auctions will often have more "problem" 18th century copper than "problem-free" and that's despite the generous straight grading that they often receive.
Maybe PCGS should start a "problem coin" registry set.
In my experience the vast majority of these are environmental damage pieces, which often have damage that can be seen well in photos (outside of perhaps a very light and small area of roughness). I think in-hand becomes more valuable for problems like cleaning where photos can hide hairlines or not show the changes imparted on lustre. Perhaps there's a worthwhile distinction between natural damage and human-caused damage. Both are still damage, but as was said, natural damage for old copper is simply a way of life.
This. Learning to grade is more about seeing thousands of coins and learning to rank them while more importantly learning to identify deal breakers and the silent world of net/total coin grading. You need to handle both sides of the spectrum to appreciate the full rainbow. Only handling perfect coins will skew your perceptions about weighting.
You should never chase problem coins and always try to get them with enough cushion that letting them rip on Ebay will make you at least mostly whole when you upgrade.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
I think they already have, at least for me. The "problem" being the money needed to buy the coins to upgrade my registry sets.
OUCH!
I used to think this way but now I regret not buying a "problem" coin from you when I had the chance!
That would be the ungradable Martha Washington coin
you won’t learn much buying them but you’ll learn a hell of a lot when you go and try to sell them
The lesson I’ve learned by purchasing a few problem coins in the past, is that with time, my eye is always drawn to that ‘problem’ FIRST -when looking at the coin-now.
Back then, when evaluating for purchase, and trying to rationalize my purchase, I might say, well, the luster and strike is so outstanding that it outweighs the distraction of that scratch. Over time though, it’s that scratch that keeps pulling me in, spoiling any deal I thought I was getting.
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
I'd never buy a common coin with a problem for more than melt, and even then, not anymore, have plenty already 😉😁
Rare coins, like 1805-1828 quarters by die variety and die state? Absolutely! I want to study the features that make it special, and often problems bring the net cost down a couple grades. On a "problem free" coin with 20 or 50 or 80 extant in all grades, a well- worn Good lacks a lot of the details of the variety, while a lightly cleaned or scratched Fine for the same price works great, since they're mostly all raw and/or cracked out immediately anyway.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I once bought a heavily cleaned coin with a very strongly struck variety that I was not sure what one looked like ,no pics were published. Happy I did, from that I found a good one uncleaned for my registry set.
It's my reference piece.
To Think out of the box or avoiding the herd could enlighten you about the same ole , same ole.
"Time to make the donuts" so to speak.
Whizzed or cleaned ... You should know better.
As for the off the charts, its so cool. Although you must research the 5 Who, What, When, Where and How.
As best as possible.
As for selling... Ethics will tell the tale.
I hate thinking that deep !
NO PIC...S ?