Home PCGS Set Registry Forum

Claiming ownership of a coin without having it?

Hi fellow registry set collectors.

An example I would like to put forth is a coin sold from great collections on the 24th of January 2021. The new owner (or possibly another registry member) is claiming they have the coin in hand and want it added to their registry set. At best I have experienced it takes about a week to receive a package from great collections after the coin is paid for. I believe the pcgs registry states you should first request the coin be added to your sets, then if the owner is unable or has not released the coin, you can send in a picture to pcgs and ask for the switch. Pcgs will then make an effort to contact the original owner of the coin, 1) to make sure they still do not own this coin, and 2) to make sure by some miracle that 2 coins have the same certification number or 3) that the coin is in a fake holder. All of these measures are to protect the integrity of the registry sets.
(This is a copy of my note to pcgs)
Hi pcgs. a buyer asked me to release this coin from my sets, before he received it? In the past I was asked not to do this. Is this what pcgs wants collectors to do with registry coins? here is the information on the coin.

19966288, PCGS #406610
asked to remove on 1/25/21

How do you feel about this activity?

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Comments

  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,727 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've had a number of buyers over the years ask me to release a coin that I keep blocked from the registry prior to their receiving the coin. I've always done so, but have marveled at the lack of patience.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • Tom147Tom147 Posts: 1,431 ✭✭✭✭✭

    WAYNEAS I couldn't agree more.

  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,727 ✭✭✭✭✭

    In theory I agree that once a coin is "sold" it should be removed from the seller's inventory. However, it depends upon what constitutes a sale.

    Someone who buys a coin from my website will not have the coin in-hand for at least two days and perhaps not for a week or more, which is all dependent upon how quickly the USPS delivers the package to the recipient. During this time window the client only has my images and description to go by and even though I go to great lengths to portray coins accurately, there can be an honest difference of opinion between a prospective buyer and seller. I also offer a no questions asked complete refund of purchase price if the coin either does not match my images and description or if the client simply changes their mind during transit. This means that until a client has a coin in-hand, they can't possibly know if they are going to complete the purchase. Therefore, if I have a coin blocked for the registry then that block stays in place until I hear from the client that the coin arrived safely and that they are satisfied with it.

    It may seem like a minor point, but i don't want to free up a cert number for someone who might then immediately return the coin to me for refund since I will then have to ask for them to release the cert number from their own set(s) and, as we know, not everyone is quick to perform such a courtesy for others.

    From my experience, it is a lot cleaner to simply wait until you have a coin in-hand and are satisfied with it before entering it into a registry set.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • Tom147Tom147 Posts: 1,431 ✭✭✭✭✭

    TomB, valid points although I don't believe it is so minor. A pet peeve of mine is buying a coin then having to request, wait, take pictures and send them in to get a coin released. i personally am a collector, not a dealer so I do not sell coins. For those such as yourself that do, I believe you have the correct procedure in place.

  • YorkshiremanYorkshireman Posts: 4,494 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TomB said:
    In theory I agree that once a coin is "sold" it should be removed from the seller's inventory. However, it depends upon what constitutes a sale.
    From my experience, it is a lot cleaner to simply wait until you have a coin in-hand and are satisfied with it before entering it into a registry set.

    Smart idea, TomB!

    Yorkshireman,Obsessed collector of round, metallic pieces of history.Hunting for Latin American colonial portraits plus cool US & British coins.
  • neildrobertsonneildrobertson Posts: 1,181 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I believe a coin can be yours without it being in your possession. If it's sold, you should have no qualms about releasing it. It's not your responsibility as a previous owner to enforce registry conduct.

    IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
    "Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me

  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,727 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The reason I keep inventory cert numbers listed in a private registry set is because in the past I have had clients request that I release coins from a registry set when, in fact, I had never registered them in the first place. In other words, a previous owner had registered the coin or just some random person had entered the cert number into their own set and I had no clue. When that has happened, I have had to respond to the client that I was never a party to having the coin in a set and to contact PCGS themselves.

    Therefore, if I register a coin that will go into inventory it does two things for me and/or my potential client; first, it establishes that the coin isn't already registered in another set and, second, it prohibits someone from taking the cert number and adding it to their own set either on purpose or inadvertently.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • PwrHseProPwrHsePro Posts: 200 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2021 4:54AM

    Makes sense to me! So it would seem the same way when a buyer wants to register it. If not released they can find out from the seller what experience they have?

    I mainly collect raw Ancients, PCGS Mercury Dimes, and raw CSA'S... but have misc other sets...Jeffhttps://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/mysetregistry/set/215647https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/mysetregistry/showcase/8378

  • Tom147Tom147 Posts: 1,431 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Valid points have been posted for sure and this thread has enlightened me. I can see both sides of this discussion. But once again I am a collector only. I do not sell my coins. Personally I have been frustrated some 60+ times over the last couple of years having to go through the whole process of request removal, wait 3 days ( if it's not a weekend ), taking and sending the pictures so that I can add coins to my set. This from coins bought from multiple venues, eBay, GC, private dealers and some from major auction houses.

  • WAYNEASWAYNEAS Posts: 6,345 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TomB said:
    In theory I agree that once a coin is "sold" it should be removed from the seller's inventory. However, it depends upon what constitutes a sale.

    I agree to the above.

    But not this part

    It may seem like a minor point, but i don't want to free up a cert number for someone who might then immediately return the coin to me for refund since I will then have to ask for them to release the cert number from their own set(s) and, as we know, not everyone is quick to perform such a courtesy for others.

    No malice meant here but just my insight.
    I am interpreting this as it is ok for one party to have to request a release and not the other party depending who is the buyer and who is the seller. How often has someone sent back a coin that they registered into their sets and you have to ask them to release it? With you not releasing the coin, all who buy from you must make the request each and every time for every sale for the release.
    To me all sellers rights to a coin ends when it it sold and payment is received. Coin issues after the sale are all secondary and hopefully rare.
    Have a great day.

    Kennedys are my quest...

  • Tom147Tom147 Posts: 1,431 ✭✭✭✭✭

    And yet again the waiting begins. Rec'd a 32-S Washington Qtr. today purchased from a dealer. Try to enter into my set. Guess what ? Previous owner ( which likely isn't the dealer ) has it in a registry set. FRUSTRATING Request sent. Hopefully I don't have to wait the 3 days, pictures etc.

  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,727 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @WAYNEAS said:

    @TomB said:
    In theory I agree that once a coin is "sold" it should be removed from the seller's inventory. However, it depends upon what constitutes a sale.

    I agree to the above.

    But not this part

    It may seem like a minor point, but i don't want to free up a cert number for someone who might then immediately return the coin to me for refund since I will then have to ask for them to release the cert number from their own set(s) and, as we know, not everyone is quick to perform such a courtesy for others.

    No malice meant here but just my insight.
    I am interpreting this as it is ok for one party to have to request a release and not the other party depending who is the buyer and who is the seller. How often has someone sent back a coin that they registered into their sets and you have to ask them to release it? With you not releasing the coin, all who buy from you must make the request each and every time for every sale for the release.
    To me all sellers rights to a coin ends when it it sold and payment is received. Coin issues after the sale are all secondary and hopefully rare.
    Have a great day.

    One thing I did not tell you, and that you would have no special insight in if you hadn't purchased a coin from me already, is that I typically ship coins prior to being paid for them and only ask to be paid for the coin after the potential client receives the coin and is happy with it. Therefore, I don't consider a coin sold until I receive the corresponding payment and know the client is satisfied, but I am willing to delete a cert number prior to receiving payment once I hear from the client that they received the coin safely and are keeping it.

    This might seem like a risky business strategy (shipping prior to getting paid) but I have "only" been burned one time and it was for a $500 coin.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • WAYNEASWAYNEAS Posts: 6,345 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Tom147 said:
    And yet again the waiting begins. Rec'd a 32-S Washington Qtr. today purchased from a dealer. Try to enter into my set. Guess what ? Previous owner ( which likely isn't the dealer ) has it in a registry set. FRUSTRATING Request sent. Hopefully I don't have to wait the 3 days, pictures etc.

    the lol is for I am a firm believer that these things only happen to me.

    Kennedys are my quest...

  • Tom147Tom147 Posts: 1,431 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Since mid 2018, I've had over 60, maybe close to 70 that I've had to go through the whole process. In 2019 I had 5 coins, including a couple top pops that I had to wait through a holiday weekend ( 3 business day wait ). Pictures sent on Wednesday a.m. It was the next Wednesday when they were released. FRUSTRATED.

  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,848 ✭✭✭✭✭

    In my opinion, once I pay for a coin it is mine. Sometimes I enter right away and other times I wait for in hand. If it is a valuable coin, I check to make sure the cert is valid.

    Welcome to the boards Macintosh

  • WAYNEASWAYNEAS Posts: 6,345 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TomB said:

    One thing I did not tell you, and that you would have no special insight in if you hadn't purchased a coin from me already, is that I typically ship coins prior to being paid for them and only ask to be paid for the coin after the potential client receives the coin and is happy with it. Therefore, I don't consider a coin sold until I receive the corresponding payment and know the client is satisfied, but I am willing to delete a cert number prior to receiving payment once I hear from the client that they received the coin safely and are keeping it.

    This might seem like a risky business strategy (shipping prior to getting paid) but I have "only" been burned one time and it was for a $500 coin.

    >
    This to me makes a big difference as you have not received payment so you are still the owner of the item. Any request to remove the cert from my inventory, would be denied by me also, but since I never sell coins but only purchase them, this will never be a problem or concern for me. That's why when I receive a request to remove a cert from inventory by "another" owner, I know that they have made an error or are FOS.
    >
    I do not know if I have bought a coin from you or not without having to go thru several dozen files to see. I can tell you that I
    immediately pay in minutes for any winning bid or purchase 100% of the time. This I do once I am notified that I won.
    >
    Here is hoping that you never get burned again as once is too many times
    Wayne

    Kennedys are my quest...

  • CatbertCatbert Posts: 6,601 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Hey @TomB . When are you going to have some new coins for sale? 😉

    Also, isn’t unusual for a dealer to take the time to enter their inventory into a registry? I think Tom must be an exception to the norm.

    "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
  • McGrumpMcGrump Posts: 27 ✭✭

    As a seller, I release the coin from my inventory as soon as it is sold.

    As far as buying if I buy a coin and it is not immediately released I will never buy a coin from that seller again. Nothing I buy is so rare there aren't multiple sources.

  • jclovescoinsjclovescoins Posts: 1,853 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Release it. It's not yours. And I looked up the cert...all this drama over a 2009 quarter :o

  • ms70ms70 Posts: 13,946 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't see a problem asking for it to be removed once it's paid for. I'm waiting for one now and I sent the request because when it arrives I want to enter it into my inventory that day, not days later. Is it a big deal? As far as I'm concerned it is. It's my coin.

    Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.

  • smalltimesmalltime Posts: 171 ✭✭✭

    When i put coins up for sale I just delete them from my inventory right after I list them. Is that wrong?

  • Tom147Tom147 Posts: 1,431 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Although I do not sell my coins, IMO I would not remove them until they are actually sold. Saves entering them back into my inventory if they do not sell.

  • JonJetJonJet Posts: 524 ✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2021 7:39PM

    @ms70 said:
    I don't see a problem asking for it to be removed once it's paid for. I'm waiting for one now and I sent the request because when it arrives I want to enter it into my inventory that day, not days later. Is it a big deal? As far as I'm concerned it is. It's my coin.

    I think PCGS rules state that to request removal You need to possess the coin

    My 1957-2022 Proof Set Collection Has Been Sold

  • vulcanizevulcanize Posts: 1,339 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Once the transaction has happened and money changed hands, the coin is no more your's.
    Just release it.
    If somehow it gets returned, then the other person has to release it as soon as the cash is refund.

    What is the difficulty in this?

  • vulcanizevulcanize Posts: 1,339 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JonJet said:

    @ms70 said:
    I don't see a problem asking for it to be removed once it's paid for. I'm waiting for one now and I sent the request because when it arrives I want to enter it into my inventory that day, not days later. Is it a big deal? As far as I'm concerned it is. It's my coin.

    I think PCGS rules state that to request removal You need to possess the coin

    It took me nearly a month after getting the coin in my hand and putting up multiple requests to get a coin released. I was not too eager to add it to registry but it was indeed a very annoying waste of time nevertheless.

  • JonJetJonJet Posts: 524 ✭✭✭

    I admit to being excited about adding new coins...but the truth is that there is only one day per year that is important to PCGS for coins in Your collection...

    5PM on the last day before Annual Awards

    Any other day that You add the coin does not matter one iota...other than satisfy Your own ego in keeping up with the friendly competition that is inherent within Set Registry

    And although I thoroughly disagree with several aspects of The Rules...this one is not gonna change anytime soon without the serious effort of the collectors whose names appear in the Top 5 Rank spots of most of the sets in the Registry

    And they don't seem to be too concerned with it

    My 1957-2022 Proof Set Collection Has Been Sold

  • WAYNEASWAYNEAS Posts: 6,345 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @smalltime said:
    When i put coins up for sale I just delete them from my inventory right after I list them. Is that wrong?

    not to the buyer :)

    Kennedys are my quest...

  • earlyAurumearlyAurum Posts: 718 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Once you’ve sold a coin, just release it from your registry set. The new owner is excited to add it to theirs and allowing them to do so without going through the whole release requests process is a thoughtful thing. It’s all virtual anyway. So - there is no risk.

  • ms70ms70 Posts: 13,946 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The bottom line is if someone is selling it why do they care if it's in their registry anyway? They obviously don't want the coin.

    Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.

  • Downtown1974Downtown1974 Posts: 6,715 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Such a pet peeve when people don’t release sold coins from their sets. Going through the process now as a matter of fact.

  • At one time I held 3000 pcgs coins in my collection. Without exception I had "to go through hoops" I think one collector stated to get the coin I bought, entered into my sets.

  • retirednowretirednow Posts: 471 ✭✭✭✭✭

    hum .. when does title transfer? ... I would think upon payment as is the case for auction houses. You pay (and clears) you own it. The dealer may still hold risk of lost via shipment and insurance but I believe most terms are it is now the other parties coin. PCGS request coin in Hand which is their right to request ... even if we do no like it.

  • Tom147Tom147 Posts: 1,431 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't request until I do have the coin in hand. My issue is " I purchased the coin. It is now mine. " It's then shipped to me, I attempt to enter it into my inventory, NOPE. Still in the sellers inventory. Even though It's not theirs. So I send request, no response. After 3 days I have to take pictures, send them to our hosts ( they are actually quite good about releasing the coin quickly ) before I can enter the coin into my inventory. Over 70 times in the last 2 years I've had to go through this. IT'S BULL**IT !!!! The rules say the seller can have his sets removed from the Registry for failure to release on request, from their inventory, a coin they have sold. THAT'S NOT HAPPENING. I've complained about this on several different threads hoping our hosts would see it and address this issue. If our gracious hosts would enforce their rules I guarantee sellers would start removing from their inventory coins they've sold. Will this upset some people ? Absolutely. Do I care ? NO !!! I follow the rules, so should we all. END OF RANT.

  • ms70ms70 Posts: 13,946 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Tom147 said:
    I don't request until I do have the coin in hand. My issue is " I purchased the coin. It is now mine. " It's then shipped to me, I attempt to enter it into my inventory, NOPE. Still in the sellers inventory. Even though It's not theirs. So I send request, no response. After 3 days I have to take pictures, send them to our hosts ( they are actually quite good about releasing the coin quickly ) before I can enter the coin into my inventory. Over 70 times in the last 2 years I've had to go through this. IT'S BULL**IT !!!! The rules say the seller can have his sets removed from the Registry for failure to release on request, from their inventory, a coin they have sold. THAT'S NOT HAPPENING. I've complained about this on several different threads hoping our hosts would see it and address this issue. If our gracious hosts would enforce their rules I guarantee sellers would start removing from their inventory coins they've sold. Will this upset some people ? Absolutely. Do I care ? NO !!! I follow the rules, so should we all. END OF RANT.

    Upsetting people is the necessary first step in getting the rules followed.

    Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.

  • Tom147Tom147 Posts: 1,431 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Well, I must admit, I'm a little upset about it. In the grand scheme of things, an additional 3 to 7 days to enter a coin isn't that big of a deal. But the laziness of some people tends to aggravate me. FOLLOW THE RULES, and to our hosts, ENFORCE THE RULES. I can't help but think if PCGS would do this, once the word got out, the problem would take care of itself. I understand not everyone has Registry sets so they simply don't care. For those that do, I believe they would remove sold coins from their inventory when sold by FOLLOWING THE RULES. I now have several sellers who I no longer deal with because of this.

  • GoldminersGoldminers Posts: 3,585 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 1, 2021 1:49PM

    Have you considered the person who owned the coins may have died and their heirs don't know much except to sell the coins. I am aware that this has happened in the last year. I have tried to put instructions in my files, but with 2,500 plus coins in the registry, and a lot of top sets, I don't have any idea what might happen, when I no longer can follow the rules.

  • Tom147Tom147 Posts: 1,431 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have. However, someone had the presence of mind to list them for auction with what I consider one of the top 3 auction houses. If it was heirs listing them, I'd like to think if the deceased had the presence of mind to leave instructions on where to sell, they also would inform their loved ones about removing them from the registry.
    My son has no interest in coins but he has been informed of inventory removal as well as where to sell my collection. Granted, if this situation had not been brought up on previous posts, I would not have the presence of mind to address this issue.
    It has been stated in other posts about auction houses getting the coins released. IMO this will just add costs and delay listings.
    Edit : Just so everyone knows, I just received message that the seller has released the coins, so I am very happy.

  • PwrHseProPwrHsePro Posts: 200 ✭✭✭✭

    Maybe the best bet is if you plan on selling it, release before it goes on the market

    I mainly collect raw Ancients, PCGS Mercury Dimes, and raw CSA'S... but have misc other sets...Jeffhttps://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/mysetregistry/set/215647https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/mysetregistry/showcase/8378

  • Tom147Tom147 Posts: 1,431 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Agree 100 %

  • GoldminersGoldminers Posts: 3,585 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think everyone with a significant collection of anything should leave detailed instructions to their family or loved ones on what to do with it somewhere in their Trust documents.

    That would include the item locations, basis and dates of purchase if known, which ones are more special than others to keep, where to sell the others, (vs the closest pawn shop, LOL), link and password to the PCGS site and customer support phone numbers to the various major auction houses or other dealers.

    I recommend printing or at least saving a .csv file to document their entire PCGS, or other inventory, every several months to have a copy in case the registry is not available or the internet has an issue.

    Always be prepared, (my eagle scout motto) as unexpected things can happen without warning.

  • CrackoutCrackout Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This is the message that appears when you try to add a cert that is already registered:

    Send Removal Request?
    The item(s) you’ve attempted to add to your inventory is currently in another member’s Registry. You should only add inventory when you own and have physical possession of the item(s). Members who have sold items are not required to remove an item from their inventory until they have received payment and shipped the item(s) sold.

    So it kinda contradicts itself by saying that if you're the new owner you should have physical possession, but if you're the previous owner then you should release it once you've "received payment and shipped the item sold".

    So which is it?

  • AlongAlong Posts: 466 ✭✭✭✭

    @PwrHsePro said:
    Maybe the best bet is if you plan on selling it, release before it goes on the market

    Agreed.

  • Tom147Tom147 Posts: 1,431 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't look for our hosts to give up that info. I still believe the solution to this problem is for our hosts to ENFORCE THEIR RULES. ( Loosely translated ) Upon request, the seller has three business days to release the coin. Failure to do so can cause the seller to have his sets removed from the Registry.
    I am getting so damn frustrated that our hosts don't do this. If they would ENFORCE THEIR RULES IMO it wouldn't take very long for the word to get out that the RULES ARE BEING ENFORCED. Remove the coin from your inventory before you sell it, or your Registry sets will be removed.

  • JonJetJonJet Posts: 524 ✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2021 8:04PM

    @HashTag said:
    This has just become a total joke! Maybe if the powers at be would give the past owner we could contact them directly. This might allow us to put OUR coin in OUR registry set instead of waiting three days. Use a little shame on the these self centered jerks.

    I purchased a 1978 nickel on eBay and it arrived last week and when I tried to add it the Request Release came up

    Some digging within the Set Registry and I found out which set it was in...located the set...and sent a direct message to the registered Collectors Universe member

    It was released within minutes

    But in all reality...the only firm date that You really need to have the coin in Your set is 5PM on June 30

    Any other day of the year it's only Your ego that gets satisfied

    My 1957-2022 Proof Set Collection Has Been Sold

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