The Numismatist and thedockter
IkesT
Posts: 2,598 ✭✭✭✭✭
The ad above was printed on p. 12 of the January issue of The Numismatist. To my mind, this raises two important questions:
1) Should The Numismatist be promoting these kind of services?
2) Should The Numismatist have any other concerns about promoting this individual?
In my opinion, the answer to #1 is no; it is detrimental to the hobby to promote services that may be used to disguise problem coins. The answer to #2 is maybe. I do not know this individual and have not done any business with him. However, I am familiar with the eBay seller known as "thedockter" (a.k.a. "Big Al") and have followed the discussion below with interest:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1033253/the-dockter-big-al-etc/p1
As I said, I don't know the man and I make no accusations. Frankly, I don't have to. If they are to run these ads, it should be the responsibility of The Numismatist staff to look into this matter and make their own determination based on the available evidence and/or their own investigation.
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Advertising Sales Manager:
nmcallister@money.org
advertising@money.org
Editor:
editor@money.org
Comments
Edited to add: PCGS & NGC conservation services do not fill holes. Sorry for the prior post.
Perhaps you should not have given his ad more publicity here to remain consistent with your argument?
Anyway, I am generally for less censorship. There is too much cancel culture these days. Corrosive in my opinion.
Nothing offered in the ad is in violation of the ANA Member or ANA Dealer Code of Ethics.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
FYI, from another post.
I have no interest in "cancelling" a person. Rather, I am voicing my concern about the potential negative impact of running the ad. Maybe you think the ad is fine and have no concerns about it. In that case, we have a difference of opinion.
Perhaps not. I still have concerns about it.
Yes.
No.
Allen Stockton's company is up front about their services. The company has been discussed numerous times on the forums in the past without issue.
https://crsstockton.com/
Are you thinking they'd run whatever ad one might submit without looking at them? Seems unlikely.
What does the American Numismatic Society have to do with the company or advertising in The Numismatist?
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
No, but I'm raising a concern they may not have thought of.
Wow!
If the goal is to preserve our numismatic heritage, this has value doesn't it?
It may, in the right context, but that's not really my point.
Obviously, I'm in the minority on this one, at least based on the posted comments. Thanks to you and others for your replies.
In general, I am more in favor of conservation than restoration. There is a time and place for all of the services listed. As long as the business is ethical, there is not a problem. There need to be a few ethical players in this business and I don't want the TPGs to be the only ones.
IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me
It sort of has to be the point, doesn't it? Or at least part of the point. The question is whether the offered services have value or not.
From the website:
About
We restore coins to a collector’s condition.
These damaged coins still have a lot of good left in them. Coins that have been holed and or damaged can be restored by removing Solder, Filling holes and replacing the detail the way it should be, in the proper place and in the proper proportions.
I have been restoring coins for 27 years and I am a Life Member of the American Numismatic Society.
What did they say when you asked them?
And what does being a life member of the American Numismatic Society have to do with advertising in The Numismatist?
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
“Holes filled” by NGC and PCGS?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It might mean that he was never brought up on ethics charges and dismissed from ANS.
Maybe not. I thought tat was one of the conservation services they offered.
I actually don't really care what the numismatist does.
I’ve never hard of that.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Nothing at all.
They apparently don't. I edited the original comment. Sorry.
Oddly, I had it backwards. They won't UNDO a filled hole. LOL.
Then why repost a prior thread quoting "Warning: This person (nor his company) IS NOT A MEMBER OF THE AMERICAN NUMISMATIC SOCIETY!!!" into a thread concerning advertising in The Numismatist?
You do know the ANS does not publish The Numismatist, right?
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
How does that impact advertising in a publication produced by the ANA?
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
The phrase “restored to collector’s condition” gives me pause. To me that implies making a coin gradable that was not previously gradable. A holed coin is not in any more of a collector’s condition than a plugged coin, so isn’t that false advertising?
I don't know that it directly translates. I think the issue is over whether the advertiser's business is ethical or not. If he's been in business for 27 years without issue, then he's "reputable".
I frequently have buyers tell me that they only purchased from me because I was an ANA or APS member. It does matter to some people.
Gotcha. Whether it is ethical or not is a different (and important) question. Regardless, doctoring or repairing coins does not violate the ANA's Code of Ethics for collectors or dealers. As such, membership in the ANA is meaningless with respect to this activity, save that the ANA indirectly approves of it.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
"If he's been in business for 27 years without issue, then he's "reputable".
He is NARU on ebay finally and I'm not sure the 200 year old safe and buying problem coins from auctions cracking them out and not disclosing is "reputable".
I'm sure there are many of his ebay buyers that don't think he is "reputable".
If the publisher denies his ability to advertise, then I’d say that this is “canceling” his ability to reach a critical audience for his business.
A good publisher would not do such a thing for no reason, and certainly not for the purpose of targeting a specific person; they would only do so if the potential for negative impact on their audience warranted it. Like I said, I have concerns about the ad. You apparently do not; that is our disagreement.
What do you know about Allen Stockton's service and what is your concern about the ad?
If the canvas is torn on a Rembrandt painting, is it unethical to repair it?
If an antique car has a rust hole in the fender, is it unethical to repair it?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
during the 20+ years that I had a close relationship or worked for my Boss he used the services of Allen Stockton on maybe half-a-dozen instances. the coins I saw were stuff like filled holes drilled through coins or deep gouges that were smoothed. the results were good but identifiable.
I can see no problem with running the ad, doing otherwise is sort of censorship, right?? I know I'm against that.
His advertised business is restoring coins. He provides a service to those who desire such activities. He is entitled to earn a living as much as any of us. It is not unethical to restore a coin. Now, if it were sold as original, we could then discuss ethics and legalities. Other than that, it is his business and he is free to conduct it. Cheers, RickO
If a rare coin has a loop soldered to the edge, is it wrong to remove the loop and any trace of the solder?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
With the shape the ANA is in they should accept any form of advertising they can get right now
It appears the ad content is not the crucial area of concern.
Unless someone is advertising an item that is harmful or illegal, you nor anyone else has the right to prevent them from providing an income to theirselves as best fits their abilities. If you are a purist numismatist, then shame on you for utilizing their services, but no one has the right to prevent free speech nor rights to commerce because they disagree with them.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
The obvious concern is what happens to a coin that has been brought back to life, and who bears the responsibility for any unethical behavior in the sale of that coin. If he were to post a gallery of every coin worked on so that people (and grading services) could compare with it, would he be able to charge the same for his service? If not, why not?
I like that someone is able to safely remove solder. I don't know that I like that a mutilated coin can me made to look normal. That's pretty close to taking a VG coin and making it VF or altering a date.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
The responsible party is the one acting unethically/illegally. If someone uses a hammer to break a window, the guy who made the hammer is surely not at fault.
In my opinion, I do not feel it is right to condemn someone and prevent them from doing something, not because of the fact of their selling it, but what the later useage of that item becomes. No one has the ability to truly see intent, especially from someone who only obtains the item in the future. We become big brother whose opinion rules and not the law.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
If someone uses a hammer to break a window, the guy who made the hammer is surely not at fault.
now that's funny!! it's also on point and correct.
But what about the guy who modified the hammer specifically to make it break glass more quietly?
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
As long as he's not breaking someone else's glass, I'm not seeing a problem there.
Reminds me of the saying "guns don't kill people, people do".
In contrast with a painting, for example, where restoring the artists' vision may be valued above absolute originality, or a car, where restoring the original function and/or appearance is valued above preserving the whole of the original, coins tend to be viewed through a different lens, where originality is favored over appearance, per se. Not always – dipping uncirculated coins to remove unattractive toning comes to mind – but we're talking about an order of magnitude of alteration beyond that: actually replacing missing pieces of a coin and re-carving missing detail.
Is it desirable to take a highly modified coin and modify it even further in order to make it look less modified? Is it desirable to promote this on an educational platform? Aside from a small and surprisingly vocal minority, I believe most collectors, dealers and numismatists would say “no”. If it was my platform, I wouldn't allow it, and would certainly not throw my readers to the wolves if anyone like thedockter was involved. My platform means my freedom to choose who and what is promoted. If someone is rejected from my platform, they still have the freedom to run their business and find another platform. The Numismatist is not “my” platform – I'm just a subscriber – but I do have the right to share my concerns with the Editor or anyone else, for that matter.
When Forum members were documenting how thedockter took TPG-certified Details coins (previously sold at other venues, such as Heritage) and subsequently sold them raw on eBay, without disclosing their problems, no one complained that we were engaged in censorship or “cancel culture”. When we documented how the damage was consistently hidden in the eBay listing photos by overexposure and/or extreme AT, no one claimed we were being unfair. When we pointed out that the coins were not, in fact, discovered in a safe in a 200 year old store, as claimed by thedockter, no one complained that we were trying to stop him from making a living. Far from it.
I do not know if Allen Stockton is thedockter. I do know that a Forum member reported being a customer of thedockter and that he and Stockton coincidentally have the same email address. That's enough information to have a legitimate concern, even aside from the objection on principle that I discussed, previously.
This is not completely true. Coins are frequently curated. Almost all ancient coins had to be brought back to life.