A dealer and his collection
DCW
Posts: 7,629 ✭✭✭✭✭
If a coin dealer has a personal collection (and I assume most of us do) how long do you think a particular piece needs to be in his/her possession to distinguish it as having belonged in that collection and not just inventory?
In exonumia, we often see provenance from Tanenbaum, Bowers, Rossa, Fuld, etc. All prominent dealers that were also rabid collectors in their own right. So where is the line drawn?
Opinions?
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
2
Comments
I don’t think the length of time is nearly as relevant as the mindset of the dealer and whether he made the coin available for sale while he owned it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I agree with you @MFeld. But how do you know get into the "mindset" of the dealers without knowing them personally? The ones I cited, excluding QDB, are now long gone.
Take Jeff Shevlin, for example. Nearly every piece I see him sell comes with a flip that says "From the personal collection of Jeff Shevlin," which seems like a stretch.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
I had a huge error collection before I became a dealer.
Someone on this forum told me that in order to become a coin dealer, you had to put up your "whole" collection as inventory.
Very wise advice.
I did exactly that. Some of the best advice that I ever have got.
Now, when buying new coins as inventory. I only buy coins that I personally would collect.
Understandably, there will be times when you can’t know what the dealer’s mindset was. And some dealers own coins as available inventory, for years. So the length of time owned doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with whether the coin is actually part of their collection. Ultimately, unless you have knowledge of the circumstances, it’s probably pointless to be concerned with whether the coin was inventory or part of the collection. Buy or pass on the coin for what it is.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It should always be about the coin itself, agreed.
However, there is something intriguing to most about knowing that a dealer considered a piece special enough to reside in their personal collection at the end of the day...after all the searching, buying, and selling is done.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
I have never considered that... but then, provenance of a coin is really not important to me. I know, blasphemy... just the way I feel about it. So, that aspect of ownership is not a consideration for me. Cheers, RickO
I had an uber-cool error coin in my personal collection for years.
I sold it years ago when I first became a coin dealer.
A few years ago, I bought back the coin as it was so nice and completely unique.
Of course, I resold it in short order because of the coins' coolness.
Today, I just bought back the coin for the third time. I do not expect it to last in inventory very long.
When a dealer buys back a coin for the third time, rest assured the dealer really likes that coin.
It is all about capital unless of course, the dealer is independently wealthy.
If a dealer squirrels away his best most expensive coins, then that capital is tied up not being productive.
I'm not sure anymore. But I think in the eyes of the IRS it is 2 years holding time to be eligible for the Capital Gains tax rate as opposed to earned income.
I doubt that applies to someone who has a reselling certificate
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
The way that prices have dropped, I wonder how long a person has to hold coins to be eligible for the Capital "Loss" rate?
Pete
Probably not, but the IRS issue is real, especially where sales tac is in play. If a dealer buys a coin for a personal collection, he would have to play the sales tax. As a result, anything I buy is considered inventory.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Luckily I don't have to have 1 in Ga since coins are tax exempt!
My accountant is OK with my division of my inventory vrs collection as I have good records. I mean do you think coins I've had in my collection for 50 years would not be consider part of a collection? I don't push it at all though. When I started selling my Jefferson Nickel collection....I could have gone the capital gains route but I treated them as inventory to avoid any possible hassles. I had them for close to 10 years when I started selling them. The IRS will be hard pressed to prove my Barber Halves aren't a collection, if and when I sell them as I have them in a registry set.
Got that beat being in a coin tax free state!
To me its not about time but whether the dealer says it’s in her collection or not. For example if a dealer says a coin is going into her collection, who am I to argue? On the other hand, if a dealer prices coins high and they languish, are those part of the dealer’s collection?
Do you consider all your inventory to be your collection or just some?
All of my material is for sale. Just like all (healthy) players on a football team are available for action. Coins sell just like players graduate.
If the price were right I would sell it all in one whack and start over. Many things sell which is a pleasant surprise in this tough market and I am very elated. I shipped something the other day astounded I could move it that soon.
My inventory is my investment in the business not a collection. A dealer could price one inventory group at cost plus 50 pct another at keystone markup cost plus 100 pct. Not a collector but marking up the better material accordingly. A balanced offense.
When considering the number of times I tried to buy from Tanenbaum or Bowers, if it came from their collection, I consider it significant. Neither of them were short time flippers when it came to better material.
That is a really good question.
I am in a very thin field so I buy any error coin that is in a TPG or would grade MS when sent to a TPG that I can make money on.
For example, I just bought (5) MS TPG Spearded Bison coins which my favorite variety, but I would only consider one in "my" collection.
For the other nine coins I bought this week, I would consider them all "In" my collection.
But of course, all are in inventory so can be taken out at any time.
So it all depends on the coin.
Whole collection, probably 95% "in"
@ErrorsOnCoins
I just can't buy in that something is "IN" your collection when you are actively shopping it around upon acquiring it.
Of course, there is nothing wrong with that...but it is a little like a waitress saying it is her dinner while bringing it to a customer's table.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
There are still tax implications> @DCW said:
It's really a grey area. I put everything up for sale but they aren't necessarily priced to move.
For example, I bought an elongated Columbian Expo large cent from Stacks last year. Loved that coin. I paid 245 for it. I listed it on ebay at $400. Damn thing sold a couple months later. Kind of broke my heart. But the profit is a balm of sorts. If I had bought it to sell, it would have been priced at around 300
I have a proof buffalo I like that is priced $300 too high which I still own and is basically part of my collection.
I couldn't in good conscience not list it without writing a check to the New York State sales tax department.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Hmmm, I've had a couple of folks with deep pockets try to get me to put a price on my 58 set of Barber Halves. NFS!
this is a semantic discussion that either has no answer or is so obvious as to not need discussing. if a Dealer has a personal set of Standing Liberty Quarters, is he a Collector?? if a Collector sells some of his coins, is he a Dealer?? like most members here, I'm capable of wearing many hats, sometimes at the same time.
The markup needed depends on the item. I buy a lot of esoteric items and $245 to $400 seems pretty common and not wholly unexpected for something like a Columbian expo elongate.
I think this is what @DCW is getting at.
Perhaps it's not just what's in the dealer's collection, but what is strongly held. Some items are very strongly held where nothing short of life-changing-money can pry it loose, while others are for sale immediately for the right price.
Rich Rossa and Steve Tanenbaum had collections that were held for their liifetimes which is significant.
What some dealers do is build a collection outside their business focus. In your case, this would be like building a collection of non-errors.
Once again that would be a capital outlay that is not working for you.
I am only interested in major errors like I carry and have no desire for other coins with the possible exception of a PCGS MS 7070 set
You completely missed the point.
I'm only asking what people would consider to be in a dealer's "personal collection." Not if a dealer can also collect, "wear many hats", etc. Of course he can, but where do we draw the line between what is in the collection and what is in inventory.
Opinions will vary
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
You completely missed the point.
I missed nothing and my answer is the same. the old adage applies, everything is for sale at the right price. I think dealers are less susceptible to the thinking that says "I'll never sell that coin" like so many collectors are. I have known dealers who had nice collections and didn't offer them for sale, didn't display them at their Shops or take them to Shows. all the same, it was known what they had and at the right price they'd sell.
it's the nature of the business.
@keets
But I think you have missed the point. Your answer can be the same, but the question was different.
To be clear:
Is there a distinction between a dealer's personal collection and their inventory?
As noted by @Lakesammman, Bowers and Tannenbaum had personal collection set aside and you could not buy out of them.
@errorsoncoins has stated he collects by having an inventory that is all for sale.
Just opinions on a topic people might find interesting. When I see something from the Steve Tanenbaum Collection, I pretty much now he set it aside for himself to enjoy after years, decades of searching. When I see something from the Jeff Shevlin Collection, it means zip because he puts that flip on every item that he sells.
See the difference?
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
True, but I'm just saying that's what other dealers do
There you go
DCW, my posts have been pretty clear if you choose to understand them.
Sure, everything may be for sale at the "right price", but not all "right prices" are equal.
For example, if a piece is say $100, and it's sold for $1000, that's strong money but not life-changing money. If a $100 piece is sold for $1M on the other hand, that is life-changing-money for most..
@keets
Have a cup of coffee, my friend. And re-read your comments, especially the parts where you say none of this is worth discussing.
Nobody is asking whether a person can be both a collector and dealer. That is "obvious" as you say and also completely irrelevant to the discussion.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
$400 off a $245 auction result could be argued to be $155 over retail
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Not to derail this thread, but now we need to know what this coin is.
Choice Numismatics www.ChoiceCoin.com
CN eBay
All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
On a side note from a collector point of view.....
If I were a gold collector, it would have meaning to me that one of Doug’s coins from his personal collection (if he has one) that had something special about it and perhaps that would be an added attraction. His knowledge about his specialty is incredible.
Another perspective is CRO’s archive. Obviously, these are not from a collection, but they represent what John thinks are the “best of the best” by the fact that he displays them in this manner and not all coins he sells are included. I like what’s he included there even if I couldn’t afford them.
Coins I’ve seen Tom Bush display from his collection are superb and I’d like a shot. On a rare occasion, he’ll sell one.
All three of these dealers have a great eye and have a high degree of personal integrity.
Now, considering a Houston dealer who posts here, whether his coins are in a personal collection or not, there would no chance in hell I’d buy anything from him. He views his customers as pigs for the slaughter.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Esoteric items have big price swings. Less so for common items.
The other thing to consider is that some people can make a good return by holding long term so it is working for you, just on a different time horizon.
All of this no longer matters when the dealer passes away. I have a coin that Gene Henry kept in his personal collection, he may or may not have sold it for the right price, but when he passed on it it was for sale at a fair price.
*
*
Lighten up Francis.
Sure, but if it's not listed in inventory and no one knows you own it, you're not going to get any offers.
I just now sold a coin that I would consider part of my core collection if I had one.
Sad to see it go, looking forward to what that new cash capital will buy
Sure, but if it's not listed in inventory
I did post the following, but it isn't worth arguing about.
--- all the same, it was known what they had and at the right price they'd sell.
I’m working on my offers
well, I'm gratified to see that at least one member understands. and yes, everything is for sale!!
You are correct about Mr. Tanenbaum.
The name of the thread is:
A dealer and his collection
Not, "A collector and his dealings..."
Unless you are a prominent dealer like the guys I mentioned in the OP, you don't fall into the same category.
Once again, I'm talking about that long time dealer that collects alongside of buying and selling.
David Hall is another guy. He had an awesome collection of $10 golds that he traded for real estate. Owning one of those pieces would certainly mean more (to me at least) than something he picked up on the bourse and quickly flipped for a profit.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
dude, let it rest already.