Buyer Beware!
Coinscratch
Posts: 7,433 ✭✭✭✭✭
Below are the sellers pics from ebay followed by my pics after the item arrived. If it looks too good to be true well, I guess it is.
When I first opened the box I was rather pleased but then I started looking closer and closer. Then I realized his pics are photoshopped easy to see on both sides, at least with a loupe. My pics aren't the greatest but...
Then the more I touched the ender (obverse) the more it lost its toning so, apparently the enders got an airbrush tan as well.
So then you can see the remnants of the tanning in the creases of the end of the paper roll.
Which made me think well, maybe its original and I should go ahead and open it and maybe just maybe its authentic on the inside.
But then I thought about how much I paid and the strange secret bidder that kept raising the bid after each time I did along with the previous stated facts. Realizing I had also placed a bid on another of his items a few days back and only bid once and magically it never seemed to go up again. Had I bid again I'm pretty sure it would have.
The reverse coin showing on one side is clearly a different coin (pure laziness) while I believe the other end showing a obverse is the same coin photoshopped a little harder.
Before I give him up (as if the pics wouldn't do it) what should I do? He has a 14 day return policy.
So, would you open or return?
His pics
My pics 
Thanks for your consideration.
Comments
Bidding anomalies do happen. I don't know the exact nature of this, but it is possible to have a legitimate buyer do that. If you are really suspicious, you can see what % of bids went to the same seller.
Personally, I think the pictures are irrelevant, the bidding is irrelevant, it all comes down to one and a half things:
1.5 If you are really uncomfortable with the transaction just end it, no matter the price. Otherwise, if you open the roll and find they all have uneven toning - which can happen quite naturally - you're going to be mad about it forever.
Darn it.... lol edited my comment and it disappeared! argh!
In my experience you should request a return and provide a good explanation and photo and explain why it was deception so that an ebay rep can understand clearly.
Ebay will have your back. In over 25 years on ebay it's only happened to me about 3 times...
If the seller approves the return they will provide the return shipping label for you.
But I've also had the seller ignore my request (probably because I wasn't very polite about it when I said "obvious deception..." and provided photo proof and a perfect explanation) and in that case ebay then refunds you and you get to keep it!
I have also had a seller who I totally believed did not know they misrepresented the item and they apologized, gave the refund and told me to keep the item!
Ebay really does not like it at all when a seller obviously sends a different item than pictured and it doesn't say so in the item description.
The few times I actually felt scammed (one time was when I ordered an OEM phone battery and got a bloated Chinese fake) I also requested a call back to give customer service a few extra details since the return request form doesn't let you type very much in there.
Coins are Neato!
"If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone...somewhere...is making a penny." - Steven Wright
Bait and switch. Those seller pics show very gemmy enders. What you got is typical Unc.
Take a look at the wrapper pictured by the seller. It's the same end of the wrapper in both pictures!
Collector, occasional seller
Good eye Chris! I didn't even notice that. And that within itself should be enough for ebay to allow for a return.
I'm not about to open it, not at 271.00 if it were 75.00 maybe.
If you have ebay call you and explain the details they are likely to look into the listings and the (suspicious) bidding :-)
Besides approving your return
Coins are Neato!
"If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone...somewhere...is making a penny." - Steven Wright
I'll have to go back and see how to check that - I do know it looked like the same bidder, PST time zone. The other other items also have the same or what looks to be the same bidder. Its a sham and apparently going on for a long time as I did a name search here and only found a couple of comments not derogatory and from 10 years ago.
In case anyone needed a direct comparison.
Feel free to use this pic in your SNAD return if you choose to open one.
Collector, occasional seller
@ChrisH821 Thanks Chris, I should have picked up on that before my first bid.
It's easy to miss. I only noticed because I was comparing the location of marks on your roll to the seller pictures.
Collector, occasional seller
It's a private listing. I don't know that you can be sure it's the same bidder.
@MasonG True you could never be 100% sure - But that point is irrelevant anyway it was just a gut feeling.
I suppose all of the bidders could have been private and not the same person overbidding himself - timing is a little strange too but again that's something that would elude to different bidders, a nice coverup.
If you look at the sold listing on eBay this roll with the exact pictures was sold on October 17 for 123.78
HAPPY COLLECTING
Maybe you're right and the guy bid you up. My point is that if you want eBay on your side, it might be best to not make accusations that you don't know for a fact are true. That's all.
@MasonG Good to know thanks as I'm very new to ebay but learning quickly. Tomorrow and from another seller I will find out if the mint packs are truly never opened
Anyway, just between you, me, and the fence post. If you are willing to photoshop, put fake tanning on your coins, and re-use the same pic you are deceitful and capable of a separate VPN to do your bidding.
I don't think he photoshopped it. I think he has one really nice 50-S cent that he put in an empty shotgun roll and photographed, took it out, flipped it over and photographed again to make his roll look like it's chock full of gems and rake in the bids.
That fact alone should be enough for ebay to nuke his account. But they won't. Maybe that plus shilling will do it though.
Collector, occasional seller
My pics don't give you much to go on but... On the SW bottom side of N in CENT of my pic is some damage and on his pic if you enlarge enough can see some handy work indicating it's the same coin. Along with a few other places on both sides.
It's a jungle out there
Conversely, the mark going straight across the same N and T in his pic is missing on my real pic.
So very confusing to say the least.
I think that's just coincidental. There are plenty of marks in your pics not on the seller's and vice-versa.
Check this site out and poke around. I didn't see anything in the seller's pics that stood out, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.
https://29a.ch/photo-forensics/#forensic-magnifier
Collector, occasional seller
Quick look....
Return as SNAD
Longer look and seeing comments/pics....
Return as SNAD
The pictures he used DO matter....that is the SNAD portion as well.
I would agree that the obv is the coin you received or at least from the same die (so, maybe in same original roll and lesser quality). If same coin, definitely retouched.
Reverse is harder to see as you didn't take your pic at the same angle...I was looking for small contact points that are shown in the auction pic...but hard to tell when angled differently.
It bothers you now....and unless you opened it and got something REALLY good, it will forever bother you and you won't feel good about yourself.
Cut bait and return it and move on.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
The bidders aren't private, the listing is private. Notice how when @MasonG pulled it up, you were also listed as private.
Return it.... It obviously is not good at this point based on the pictures (good detective work above), and it will not get better....Return as SNAD ...Cheers, RickO
Yea, I wondering about that. At the time I could see my handle.
What is SNAD?
I see a return item button so I just hit that and follow the prompts?
Go to your purchased items and choose return from the drop down menu of choices on the right of your item.
snad - significantly not as described
Coins are Neato!
"If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone...somewhere...is making a penny." - Steven Wright
If not happy, return.
I don't see any evidence of tanning on the paper roll in your pics. Touching the coin with a white glove/cloth will reveal if a coating has been applied.
Buyers of sealed items are always taking a gamble and they should realize this before they purchase. The only neg I ever received in 13 years was a buyer of a sealed bank roll of 2020 quarters who was unhappy because he only found one West Point quarter. Taught me a valuable lesson as a seller.
It will happen suddenly
Can you check other listings by this seller? I'm curious to know how many rolls he has "made" with that same wrapper.
Collector, occasional seller
eBay would know if it's the same bidder, right?
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
The orange/copper substance on the coin that came off when I lightly wiped the surface is the same color as the orange color in the creases of the paper. I could be wrong about airbrushing the coin while still in the wrapper however, is it normal for toning to simply wipe off?
Could it just have been some oxidation, in the two obverse pics I posted look at the color above liberty and notice the second pic more of it is missing. Eventually, I just wiped the whole surface.
I'm halfway tempted to just open it to see what is really inside, BU (beat up) or straight up brown junk. After all, on one hand I was the one who bid on it so high, I was the one who wanted it so bad. But on the other hand these coins are seriously misrepresented.
@CoinscratchFever I'll tell you exactly why you should file a return and claim total misrepresentation...
Sellers get a big bad check mark from ebay on the back-end and might be banned...
Because sellers like this do not like the negative strikes against them they will give the refund, and close the case which then allows you to close the refund request too, and then they do not deal with the return!!!
Then you get to keep it and open it
Also...you then have the option to leave public feedback :-)
Coins are Neato!
"If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone...somewhere...is making a penny." - Steven Wright
You can see your handle because you aren't secret to yourself.
If your goal is to acquire free stuff, this is borderline unethical.
By all means he should file for a return if he actually wants to return the item. HOWEVER, if he is filing a return in order to leverage the seller for a better price, possibly free, then that is unethical and essentially a violation of eBay terms.
Yes. That's why I either wholesale wrapped rolls or dump them in the coinstar. I don't know why anyone thinks that a bank-wrapped roll from 1961 is going to be all full red MS66 coins.
And forget about BU rolls that aren't shotgun rolls. The buyer will inevitable tell you that there were 2 or 3 AU coins or substandard coins.
Nope... it's just what happens to nefarious sellers sometimes.
They do not want their accounts closed so they try to satisfy you.
It's not an attempt to steal from them lol! If they approve the return they pay for shipping as well then great... win win!
I'm not sure what you mean by leveraging...when you request a return a seller approves it or not, there is no fenagling.
You get to keep the item when it's a not approved and ebay completely understands your explanation of misrepresentation. In that case ebay refunds your money and deals with the seller on the back-end.
Coins are Neato!
"If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone...somewhere...is making a penny." - Steven Wright
I filed the return for misrepresentation and will happily put it back in the mail...
Of course they would. But, again- unless the idea is to use a "Judge Judy" defense tactic (make a list of every bad thing you can think of even if you can't demonstrate they're true), it would be best to stick to the original issue- the item received is not the one that was pictured.
But hey- that's just me.
It's sure curious, isn't it? Not much different from the way people seem to think that ordinary collections put together from circulation years ago are going to have rare and valuable varieties in them.
I get that! But when your using the same pic for every sell and at the same time your saying this is exactly the roll you will receive... That seems a bit more curious to me
The seller accepted the return and within a few minutes of filing.
So, moving on now.
He shouldn't do that, I agree. If he is, though, that would seem to be a good reason to not buy from him. Did you notice that he has negative feedback for misrepresenting the rolls he sells? That would be another good reason to not buy from him.
Lesson learned...
I recently purchased some boxes of '81 cents and the seller nuance_numismatics is an awesome guy. He even threw in some extras. I would never hesitate buying from this guy.
On the other hand
Return stuff you aren't happy with. If a seller has such thin skin that they block you, so be it.
LOL. Different thread!
eBay will not close your account for a return here or there. I'm not sure why you think that's true. Excessive returns, maybe. But they don't care about successful returns. They only care if you fail to resolve the issue with the buyer.
You specifically said that a good reason to initiate the return is that you might get to keep the roll for free. That is not a good reason to file the return. That is an attempt to leverage the complaint into a freebie.
I'm not talking about regular returns. I'm talking about returns where deception is obvious and basically proven.
You are correct, endless returns won't hurt you as a seller if you're not dealing with completed returns resulting from deception... Ebay won't share how many strikes a seller gets or anything but ebay is watching that, I promise.
In my years with ebay I've spoken to them many times, I'm not shy about it.
Here is something I assume most have never seen...and just so you know I'm not just saying things that I assume
Coins are Neato!
"If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone...somewhere...is making a penny." - Steven Wright