Looking for correct numismatic term....

keoj

Trying to use the correct numismatic term for this attribute:

Please note the apparent RPD on the base of the 77's. In fact, it is not. It is not machine doubling either. This specific numeral gangpunch was used on P and CC Trade Dollars. Exact punch set. So, I don't think that it is technically a RPD (but maybe it it?). Its sort of like a MDP (Misplaced Date Punch)? What is the correct descriptive term?

Thanks fellow geeks,

keoj

Namvet69

@keoj you should post this on the VAM world discussion forum. Brain trust there shall be helpful. Peace Roy

jmlanzaf

If I understand what you are saying, it is just the punch itself. To that end, isn't it simply a variety like open 3 vs closed 3?

ricko

How has it been determined to be a date punch irregularity? Cheers, RickO

PQueue

Minutiae

PerryHall

PMD

messydesk

It could be a defective punch, but could also be a RPD. A similar effect from the date punch is seen on almost all 1880 Morgan dollars. The second 8 shows slight doubling on the lower left outside of the upper loop. This is obviously in the punch. Many 1881 Morgans have a spike inside the top loop of the first 8. Some others have a funny checkmark on the surface near the bottom of the upright of the second 1, perhaps from damage to the punch. There are also some 1904-dated Morgans that have a spike on the top of the right end of the base of the 1.

So, a defective punch is not out of the question, but inspection of several of these from multiple mints would be needed to rule out a RPD.

Crypto

You could call it a doubled die since the dhub/master making process resulted in doubled detail but at the end of the day that would confuse more than clarify so I would stick with RPD as that is what it sort of is.

keoj

Ricko: Good question...... This punch set was used on two dies one was used in the production of 1877-CC and the other, for 1877 BS P mint.. They are exact (and I mean exact). There is a notch seen in the underside of the 1st 7 (near vertical segment) and this is seen in both instances. I'll post an image of the 77-CC later.

jmlanzaf: great comment.....yes, it's just like a open vs closed 3.

Thanks....keoj

keoj

Crypto: Great comment as well.....I had the same thought.....the artifact appears to be a RPD, it's just the RPD is in the die punch and simply transferred.

keoj

Coinosaurus

Think of RPD as describing only the physical state of the coin, and not how it got that way.

yosclimber

Defective date punch.

Similar story with the "1861 / 0" half dimes.
The same punch was used on all obverse dies, and the supposed 0 under digit shows up on a couple of them,
where the date was punched most deeply.

messydesk

@keoj said:
Ricko: Good question...... This punch set was used on two dies one was used in the production of 1877-CC and the other, for 1877 BS P mint.. They are exact (and I mean exact). There is a notch seen in the underside of the 1st 7 (near vertical segment) and this is seen in both instances. I'll post an image of the 77-CC later.

Was this punch used on other denominations (thinking $20, maybe 50c)?

keoj

The original image was a 77, the image below is a 77-CC. One is a IIM die, the other is a IIL die. Obviously, same date punch used.

Keoj

messydesk

Really easy to see in the 77-CC picture. It definitely looks like the date was reworked on the punch to make the 7s not extend down as far and to make the first one slimmer. The notch on the first one looks like it was the original left side of the upright stroke of the 7. The retouching wasn't done deeply enough into the punch to make it not show up on the coin. While it may have been polished out on some coins, on others it wasn't, making it essentially a type of "Longacre doubling" as a result of the reworked date punch.

messydesk

Here's one with the same punch (notch near inner corner of 1st 7), but the date is shallower in the die, so reworking artifacts at the bottoms of the 7s are missing. Another possibility is that the punch was reworked a second time to remove the artifacts from the first attempt at fixing it.