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CAC Gold Stickered prices

chesterbchesterb Posts: 770 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited January 3, 2021 5:16PM in U.S. Coin Forum

I know the CAC discussion drama and wish to avoid it as this is a serious question. I’ve noticed in most instances when I see a coin graded AU-55 CAC Gold stickered that the seller asks MS-63 money for it and some cases even higher.

1) Is the demand for CAC Gold graded coins that high that coins sell at this premium?
2) Do you anticipate that this premium will hold for the future?
3) Does it seem reasonable to think that the majority of coins that qualify for Gold stickers already have them? I don’t see “grade inflation” happening with CAC.

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Comments

  • U1chicagoU1chicago Posts: 2,936 ✭✭✭✭✭

    (1) Some coins do sell for the same price as one to two grades higher (obviously it depends on the coin; with a common date coin like a Morgan where the spread is small, the gold sticker premium can be the same as a coin multiple grades higher).
    (2) From what I have read, there were a few buyers years ago that pushed up the price of common coins with gold stickers. I've seen some go for more reasonable amounts while others still bring seemingly improbable prices. My guess is that premiums will remain strong for a while.
    (3) I would say no. There are plenty of coins that have not been to CAC yet. In terms of high end coins, I would think there are less left (in their current holders) that could still be gold compared to more common coins.

  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 9,566 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There are a number of people who pay enormous attention to coins with gold stickers. A look at realized prices from auctions will answer your question.

    Will the premium hold? I guess it depends. Really outstanding coins in clearly under graded holders will always sell for a premium. Outlandish prices paid for common coins at common grades with a gold sticker probably won’t hold up.

    Do most eligible coins already have gold stickers? Well, depends on how you frame the question. The TPGs have seen and graded way more coins than CAC has. Coins with numismatic values over $1k? Yeah, maybe, but there’s still a lot of nice stuff out there that hasn’t been slabbed.

  • SIowhandSIowhand Posts: 108 ✭✭✭

    This was on my radar but with a week to go, is already at what I would call silly money. It’s already over AU50 price and I’d bet it gets owner 2k when done.

    https://greatcollections.com/Coin/930003/1893-CC-Liberty-Gold-Half-Eagle-PCGS-XF-40-CAC-Gold-Label-OGH-1st-Gen

  • lusterloverlusterlover Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2021 1:25PM

    Good question, but you can't avoid the drama when you include CAC in the title. Unfortunately, you may not get objective answers but here's my 2 cents:
    1) CAC gold means at least 1 point higher. From what I've seen in most cases it is more like 1 1/2 to 2 points. You should grade the coin yourself and see if the premium is reasonable. Having said that, there is a following of CAC gold bean collectors which may enhance the premium.
    2) Since the coins are undergraded, there should be a theoretical floor to the premium downside. Who knows, the CAC gold followers could continue to grow.
    3) Mr. Feld has more experience than me, so I'll take his word for it. Having said that, I have a gold bean on a coin that was graded last year. I think that's a unicorn, but it can happen.

  • Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 4,889 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2021 1:20PM

    My expectation is if I am to pay MS63 money the holder should say MS63. This is not negotiable nor do I care what somebody else thinks.

    If you want 63 money for a 58 get it in TPG 63 holder.

    Buy / Sell US & World Coins / Currency
  • scotty4449scotty4449 Posts: 146 ✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2021 1:26PM

    I would say it has a lot to do with the coin itself. I bought a PCGS PR66 1936 brilliant buff with a gold cac for just under $2000 off ebay. I turned around and sold it shortly after for $2600 on GC. PR66 = $2000 PR67 = $3000. I thought $2600 was a fair price for the coin because it really wasn't all the spectacular. While technically it was probably a PR67, it really didn't have anything special about it. If it did I would have kept it for sure.

  • fathomfathom Posts: 231 ✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2021 1:37PM

    Gold stickered coins are a stand alone marketplace for better or worse. Both sides can be argued without a definitive answer as we are still in the middle of the CAC market influence narrative.

  • chesterbchesterb Posts: 770 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Cougar1978 said:
    No - it is not a real premium unless u can reel in the big fish who will pay that. Does it say MS 63 on holder? No. Since it’s not a real premium I could care less about future some hypothetical premium. Furthermore there is no CAC premium I know of in sheet for AU58.

    I don’t pay above the grade on the holder lol. If they want more than that they need send in and get that grade by TPG.

    The seller in y example is doing what I call playing the lottery. He is hoping find buyer pay MS63 money for AU58 graded coin.

    CAC coins can bring strong money but I don’t want to be the end user and neither should you.

    This situation reminds of an outlook before 89 crash when many thought Wall Street would get involved driving up bids. Many foolishly fell for that and went bankrupt.

    Gold sticker coin a flag to me send for higher grade or you could put up for auction / bin for amount you hope to get. It just takes that lucky catch - big fish. There is no doubt nice AU coins have gone for MS63 money.

    However I would advise you shop around. There are many nice AU 58 non CAC slabbed coins in the marketplace.

    Thanks Cougar, I haven’t gotten around to reading the other threads (you’re the first response) but I appreciate the feedback!

  • chesterbchesterb Posts: 770 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @SIowhand said:
    This was on my radar but with a week to go, is already at what I would call silly money. It’s already over AU50 price and I’d bet it gets owner 2k when done.

    https://greatcollections.com/Coin/930003/1893-CC-Liberty-Gold-Half-Eagle-PCGS-XF-40-CAC-Gold-Label-OGH-1st-Gen

    Ooh, that’s a nice coin in an old holder! Thanks for bringing it to my attention!! B)>:)

  • ReadyFireAimReadyFireAim Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2021 2:15PM

    @SIowhand said:
    This was on my radar but with a week to go, is already at what I would call silly money. It’s already over AU50 price and I’d >bet it gets owner 2k when done.

    Thank You Slowhand.
    We actually have a real coin to talk about now rather than a sticker

    (I'm out because I don't know Libs :/ )

  • blitzdudeblitzdude Posts: 3,155 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Cacs, "buy the sticker not the coin."

    Don't cha no, it's 2021. Nobody collects stupid coins, just stickers and plastic slabs. Crazy World. PEACE!

  • SIowhandSIowhand Posts: 108 ✭✭✭

    I do like that coin. But as soon as I saw the gold sticker, I knew the bids would skyrocket.

  • CatbertCatbert Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2021 3:00PM

    I think the market premium is higher for gold (and green) sticker on gold coins than on silver generally (although this is an anecdotal observation). I believe this is due to the fact that many gold coins have altered surfaces.

    "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
  • GazesGazes Posts: 1,802 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Regarding the last sentence of your OP I agree there is almost no evidence of "gradeflation" with CAC. This is one reason their coins have a premium. There is no reason to believe this will change since gradeflation is contrary to the business model behind CAC. My belief (at least for old gold) is that as the number of coins submitted to CAC continue to dwindle and with no sticker inflation---premiums for old gold with CAC approval will continue to grow.

  • P0CKETCHANGEP0CKETCHANGE Posts: 428 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @SeattleSlammer said:
    Let’s not even talk about toners with gold beans.... 😇😈

    PCGS price guide value $42.

    I paid about 6x that and I was willing to pay more. ⁉️

    It’s all relative....

    Took a peek at the TrueView for this beauty on CoinFacts, and was surprised to see it’s in full-slab format. That’s something I don’t think I’ve ever seen before.

  • jkrkjkrk Posts: 327 ✭✭✭

    @chesterb said:
    I know the CAC discussion drama and wish to avoid it as this is a serious question. I’ve noticed in most instances when I see a coin graded AU-55 CAC Gold stickered that the seller asks MS-63 money for it and some cases even higher.

    1) Is the demand for CAC Gold graded coins that high that coins sell at this premium?
    2) Do you anticipate that this premium will hold for the future?
    3) Does it seem reasonable to think that the majority of coins that qualify for Gold stickers already have them? I don’t see “grade inflation” happening with CAC.

    Too many smarter people on this site than I am so take what I say with a grain of salt.

    1)When I see a CAC sticker I only assume that the coin is solid for the grade. If the coin reads 55 on the label then I would certainly pay the 55 price and no more than a 58 price. I generally grade the coin as a 55+. Any higher and i believe it should have received a gold sticker.

    2)I anticipate That a premium will hold in the future based on the criteria I've discussed.

    3) Above my pay grade.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 7,900 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2021 5:17PM

    Never mind. I misread the original post to be referring to CAC green sticker GOLD COINS and not gold colored stickers.

    Gold sticker pricing is all over. MS63 money sounds high, but again, it really, really depends on the coin. Some early federal original gold in old AU55 rattlers that are probably technically AU58 today could plausibly market grade to 63.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 7,900 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2021 5:13PM

    .

  • DollarAfterDollarDollarAfterDollar Posts: 2,603 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I saw a 1938 D Buffalo in PCGS MS 65 gold CAC in a Dealers case for $175. Something approaching MS 68 money for an MS 65 coin.

    The reason I recall this is because I have one myself.

    If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
  • chesterbchesterb Posts: 770 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:
    Never mind. I misread the original post to be referring to CAC green sticker GOLD COINS and not gold colored stickers.

    Gold sticker pricing is all over. MS63 money sounds high, but again, it really, really depends on the coin. Some early federal original gold in old AU55 rattlers that are probably technically AU58 today could plausibly market grade to 63.

    Correct and that's my fault. I meant Gold STICKERS...not Gold coins with stickers (although it could apply to them if the sticker is also gold!) :D

  • ɹoʇɔǝlloɔɹoʇɔǝlloɔ Posts: 806 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2021 5:37PM

    @P0CKETCHANGE said:
    That CAC sticker has a nasty fingerprint on it that really mars the eye appeal. I'll have to pass.

    the new owner should get the stickered holder holdered as to prevent any further wear on the sticker or old slab

    [this should maybe be a new thread: 'who owns a slabbed slab?']

  • TomBTomB Posts: 16,607 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DollarAfterDollar said:
    I saw a 1938 D Buffalo in PCGS MS 65 gold CAC in a Dealers case for $175. Something approaching MS 68 money for an MS 65 coin.

    The reason I recall this is because I have one myself.

    I believe you mean "MS67 money" and not "MS68 money" since a PCGS MS68 is a $5,000-$10,000 coin.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • david3142david3142 Posts: 2,623 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2021 5:37PM

    @DollarAfterDollar said:
    I saw a 1938 D Buffalo in PCGS MS 65 gold CAC in a Dealers case for $175. Something approaching MS 68 money for an MS 65 coin.

    The reason I recall this is because I have one myself.

    I think you mean MS67 money. An MS68 is a $4K (and up) coin.

  • chesterbchesterb Posts: 770 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Crusty said:
    In addition to my Seated dollar sets... I’m putting together a subset of Liberty Seated Dollars with gold CAC stickers. For the crowd who think I’m crazy for paying up for them.... Please find me one and cash in.

    This is an interesting post to me. I can see having a few coins here or there with a gold sticker but in this instance Crusty is focusing on the entire series with gold stickers. I'm not arguing but that doesn't make sense to me. It seems to me that coins with gold stickers means that someone has a different opinion on the grade and you're paying up for that person's opinion. Why not collect coins with green stickers which means it's high end for the grade and, presumably, everyone agrees originally on that grade? Maybe I'm reading to much into it.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 7,900 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2021 5:58PM

    @Crusty said:
    In addition to my Seated dollar sets... I’m putting together a subset of Liberty Seated Dollars with gold CAC stickers. For the crowd who think I’m crazy for paying up for them.... Please find me one and cash in.

    In fairness, any CACed Seated Liberty Dollar is going to fetch a nice premium. Most SLD are dipped out junk. Finding nice, attractive examples with original surfaces is tough enough. I can see a healthy premium. Is that premium really for the sticker or rarity of finding a PQ SLD though?

  • skier07skier07 Posts: 1,950 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2021 6:09PM

    Here are some excellent points from @BryceM regarding CAC and classic gold from another thread:

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 4,358 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @chesterb said:

    @Crusty said:
    In addition to my Seated dollar sets... I’m putting together a subset of Liberty Seated Dollars with gold CAC stickers. For the crowd who think I’m crazy for paying up for them.... Please find me one and cash in.

    This is an interesting post to me. I can see having a few coins here or there with a gold sticker but in this instance Crusty is focusing on the entire series with gold stickers. I'm not arguing but that doesn't make sense to me. It seems to me that coins with gold stickers means that someone has a different opinion on the grade and you're paying up for that person's opinion. Why not collect coins with green stickers which means it's high end for the grade and, presumably, everyone agrees originally on that grade? Maybe I'm reading to much into it.

    Green stickers don’t necessarily indicate that a coin is “high end for the grade” in CAC’s opinion. And certainly, not “everyone” will agree with a particular grade.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions

    *Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my own personal opinions.

  • CrustyCrusty Posts: 449 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @Crusty said:
    In addition to my Seated dollar sets... I’m putting together a subset of Liberty Seated Dollars with gold CAC stickers. For the crowd who think I’m crazy for paying up for them.... Please find me one and cash in.

    In fairness, any CACed Seated Liberty Dollar is going to fetch a nice premium. Most SLD are dipped out junk. Finding nice, attractive examples with original surfaces is tough enough. I can see a healthy premium. Is that premium really for the sticker or rarity of finding a PQ SLD though?

    I definitely agree with your assessment that Seated Dollars demand a premium when found nice and original. The series is complicated. All I know is Seated dollars so I can’t speak to much on other series. It comes down to supply and demand. I don’t see a demand going down with just 23 examples across the entire series with a gold CAC sticker. To answer your question... Is the premium really for the sticker or for finding a PQ dollar. I think it’s a bit of both.

  • Wahoo554Wahoo554 Posts: 701 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I only own two coins with gold CAC stickers, but in both cases it is not just a matter of the coins being under graded, but they also have exceptional eye appeal. Many gold CAC stickered coins I have observed at auctions and in the collections of others also have exceptional eye appeal. Yes, there are exceptions, but I get the impression that gold stickers are typically awarded to coins that are not only under graded, but are also very attractive. The same does not necessarily apply to green beans, as many coins are technically good for the grade, but can be hit or miss on eye appeal. I think many would agree that there are plenty of green beaned coins out there that are probably at least 5 or more points under graded. If being an under graded quality coin was enough to warrant a gold sticker, I think you’d see more of them.

  • chesterbchesterb Posts: 770 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @chesterb said:

    @Crusty said:
    In addition to my Seated dollar sets... I’m putting together a subset of Liberty Seated Dollars with gold CAC stickers. For the crowd who think I’m crazy for paying up for them.... Please find me one and cash in.

    This is an interesting post to me. I can see having a few coins here or there with a gold sticker but in this instance Crusty is focusing on the entire series with gold stickers. I'm not arguing but that doesn't make sense to me. It seems to me that coins with gold stickers means that someone has a different opinion on the grade and you're paying up for that person's opinion. Why not collect coins with green stickers which means it's high end for the grade and, presumably, everyone agrees originally on that grade? Maybe I'm reading to much into it.

    Green stickers don’t necessarily indicate that a coin is “high end for the grade” in CAC’s opinion. And certainly, not “everyone” will agree with a particular grade.

    I don't understand. I thought that was the whole purpose of CAC was that within each grade there are coins of low to high quality and they pick the ones that are high quality for the grade. Is that assumption not correct?

  • chesterbchesterb Posts: 770 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Crusty said:

    @chesterb said:

    @Crusty said:
    In addition to my Seated dollar sets... I’m putting together a subset of Liberty Seated Dollars with gold CAC stickers. For the crowd who think I’m crazy for paying up for them.... Please find me one and cash in.

    This is an interesting post to me. I can see having a few coins here or there with a gold sticker but in this instance Crusty is focusing on the entire series with gold stickers. I'm not arguing but that doesn't make sense to me. It seems to me that coins with gold stickers means that someone has a different opinion on the grade and you're paying up for that person's opinion. Why not collect coins with green stickers which means it's high end for the grade and, presumably, everyone agrees originally on that grade? Maybe I'm reading to much into it.

    @chesterb

    I’m already building 2 full date and mint mark sets that are all CAC (green) . The 3rd set is a subset... there are just 23 across the entire series. So I’ll never complete a full set. It simply doesn’t exist. The pursuit of gold cac seated dollars is really just a fun side project. I turned 38 this year so I figured the gold cac set will keep me busy for quite a few years.

    Sounds great! I know that is your series so I'm not surprised you like the gold stickered coins. Good luck with your collection :)

  • RarityRarity Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭

    Should I send a genuine, cleaned, uncirculated details coin to CAC? Wondering if CAC would accept such a coin and give it a green or red bean.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 7,900 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2021 8:43PM

    @chesterb said:

    @MFeld said:

    @chesterb said:

    @Crusty said:
    In addition to my Seated dollar sets... I’m putting together a subset of Liberty Seated Dollars with gold CAC stickers. For the crowd who think I’m crazy for paying up for them.... Please find me one and cash in.

    This is an interesting post to me. I can see having a few coins here or there with a gold sticker but in this instance Crusty is focusing on the entire series with gold stickers. I'm not arguing but that doesn't make sense to me. It seems to me that coins with gold stickers means that someone has a different opinion on the grade and you're paying up for that person's opinion. Why not collect coins with green stickers which means it's high end for the grade and, presumably, everyone agrees originally on that grade? Maybe I'm reading to much into it.

    Green stickers don’t necessarily indicate that a coin is “high end for the grade” in CAC’s opinion. And certainly, not “everyone” will agree with a particular grade.

    I don't understand. I thought that was the whole purpose of CAC was that within each grade there are coins of low to high quality and they pick the ones that are high quality for the grade. Is that assumption not correct?

    A mediocre "B" coin will also sticker.

    Edited to clarify: A green CAC sticker includes both "A" and "B" coins and in practice "C" coins from the next grade up that are in lower graded holders. The gold sticker is supposedly for coins that are at least "B" quality for the next grade up.

  • CoinJunkieCoinJunkie Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My favorite part of reading through CAC threads is getting a couple dozen different interpretations of what a sticker signifies...

  • chesterbchesterb Posts: 770 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CoinJunkie said:
    My favorite part of reading through CAC threads is getting a couple dozen different interpretations of what a sticker signifies...

    The thread was about gold stickers but I’m really confused as to what the green sticker signifies now! :s

  • DelawareDoonsDelawareDoons Posts: 819 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 4, 2021 6:01AM

    Good luck getting a gold CAC sticker coin for guide.

    There is generally a lot of saltiness around people who don't understand what a gold CAC coin generally looks like. 90% of the time a gold CAC coin will have you look at the grade on the holder, look at the coin, look back at the grade, and let out a little chuckle at a minimum.

    Pretty much every single gold CAC coin I've seen is at least a full point undergraded. I own 17 myself...

  • chesterbchesterb Posts: 770 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @chesterb said:

    @CoinJunkie said:
    My favorite part of reading through CAC threads is getting a couple dozen different interpretations of what a sticker signifies...

    The thread was about gold stickers but I’m really confused as to what the green sticker signifies now! :s

    My understanding is that CAC categorizes coins of each grade, as A (high end), B (mid range) or C (low end) quality. And that they sticker coins that they feel are either A or B quality.

    So with a normal distribution curve where the X axis defines “Quality” from low to high, the bell curve on what CAC stickers with a green bean is as follows?

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 1,908 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @chesterb said:
    So with a normal distribution curve where the X axis defines “Quality” from low to high, the bell curve on what CAC stickers with a green bean is as follows?

    Your curve says most coins grade near the midpoint between lowest and highest of a particular grade. Is that really true?

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