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Liberty Cap Half Cent To clean or not to clean????

I have been told by some that I should restore my 1795 Cohen 6-b lettered edge half cent by having the crusty patches of dirt removed from the reverse and have the eyelet removed from the edge.
So far I have done nothing.
Any opinions on the subject would be welcome,
Thanks in advance,
Jon


,

Comments

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    291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,942 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What kind of value would the coin have before and after such things were done?

    All glory is fleeting.
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    EbeneezerEbeneezer Posts: 264 ✭✭✭

    Cleaning will always be a subjective discussion. My personal view is that all coins the raw are assumed to some point "cleaned" With this is mind, if done so with care I see no problem at all. As for the one in question I would not as what little that may be removed will likely not do much good when looking at the existing detail. In other words, I personally don't see it improving much. What ever you decide, I like it as is. I wish I could say that I had one.

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    To reply to 291fifth ,The coin is the second example of a new variety discovered in 2018 ,so I have no idea of the value as one has never been sold yet.

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    Mr_SpudMr_Spud Posts: 4,445 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Maybe a mineral oil soak for about a year or so might loosen/remove the crud without risking destroying what is left of the coin.

    Mr_Spud

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    Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 8,672 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Does our host do eyelet removal? What would heat application do to the solder point of contact? You're making me nervous. Peace Roy

    BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall

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    I also would be a nervous and would not try the removal myself.

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    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,434 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What is this coin worth? Would it make economic sense to let one of the conservation services work on it?

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

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    Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,150 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would probably send it to pcgs for professional evaluation, then their careful restoration.

    Further down, if pcgs won’t tackle “mechanical” work, but possibly still a viable option, would be sending it to Allen Stockton. Flame away, forumites! But this may at least enable it to get into a genuine holder by removing the mount, etc.

    Successful BST transactions with 170 members. Recent: Tonedeaf, Shane6596, Piano1, Ikenefic, RG, PCGSPhoto, stman, Don'tTelltheWife, Boosibri, Ron1968, snowequities, VTchaser, jrt103, SurfinxHI, 78saen, bp777, FHC, RYK, JTHawaii, Opportunity, Kliao, bigtime36, skanderbeg, split37, thebigeng, acloco, Toninginthblood, OKCC, braddick, Coinflip, robcool, fastfreddie, tightbudget, DBSTrader2, nickelsciolist, relaxn, Eagle eye, soldi, silverman68, ElKevvo, sawyerjosh, Schmitz7, talkingwalnut2, konsole, sharkman987, sniocsu, comma, jesbroken, David1234, biosolar, Sullykerry, Moldnut, erwindoc, MichaelDixon, GotTheBug
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    To answer PerryHall
    Being a new variety, since only 2018, and being one of only two known, I have no idea what it is worth.
    I guess it would depend on how badly a 1795 variety collector would pay to have a complete collection?

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    Walkerguy21D
    Tell me about Allen Stockton?

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    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,434 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinloverjon said:
    To answer PerryHall
    Being a new variety, since only 2018, and being one of only two known, I have no idea what it is worth.
    I guess it would depend on how badly a 1795 variety collector would pay to have a complete collection?

    If is that rare, it's certainly worth the cost of professional conservation. Please let us know what you decide.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

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    If anyone is interested, Ed Fuhrman , who discovered the first example, did a presentation back on December 6th,
    for the Early American Coppers club.The presentation starts at about the 21 minute mark and runs to the 41 minute mark.
    His and my example are both shown.
    Here is the youtube link:
    https://youtu.be/U1knyT0Aj4c

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    Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,150 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinloverjon said:
    Walkerguy21D
    Tell me about Allen Stockton?

    PM sent.

    Successful BST transactions with 170 members. Recent: Tonedeaf, Shane6596, Piano1, Ikenefic, RG, PCGSPhoto, stman, Don'tTelltheWife, Boosibri, Ron1968, snowequities, VTchaser, jrt103, SurfinxHI, 78saen, bp777, FHC, RYK, JTHawaii, Opportunity, Kliao, bigtime36, skanderbeg, split37, thebigeng, acloco, Toninginthblood, OKCC, braddick, Coinflip, robcool, fastfreddie, tightbudget, DBSTrader2, nickelsciolist, relaxn, Eagle eye, soldi, silverman68, ElKevvo, sawyerjosh, Schmitz7, talkingwalnut2, konsole, sharkman987, sniocsu, comma, jesbroken, David1234, biosolar, Sullykerry, Moldnut, erwindoc, MichaelDixon, GotTheBug
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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Professional restoration would probably enhance the coin and improve value.... Those soldered eyelets can be removed, and with wicking copper, most of the solder comes off as well. Cheers, RickO

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    skier07skier07 Posts: 3,690 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don’t think restoration would make the coin look worse.

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    If there is loose dirt that can be safely removed I think that would be OK. If there is active green corrosion it would be good to stop that. Other than that I would leave it, even the eyelet. None of it bothers me, the poor Lady has just had a long and interesting life.

    Successful BST deals with mustangt and jesbroken. Now EVERYTHING is for sale.

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    fathomfathom Posts: 1,513 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If it is that rare I would definitely repair/conserve and get it in a holder with the variety. That is cool.

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    UPDATE I have done nothing to the coin (cleaning wise or removing the loop) out of fear of damaging such a rarity.
    With only 2 now known one can never replace it.
    As far as value is concerned, I have contacted several experts and the best estimate they could give me on a value (because one has never been on the market) was 5 digits, I would have thought more since a 1943 copper penny which has over a dozen examples known the last time I checked, sells for over $1 million.
    Plus this coin is 148 years older!

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    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    neat find and nice video link. 18 people in one conference call. GO EAC!

    thanks for specifying the time in the video that would be most related to this coin.

    watched the whole segment and very interesting to say the least.

    just for fun, here are a couple more images taken from the vid and i'm glad to see it in a slab of some type, if not for anything, protection.

    how extremely fortunate the area on the rev survived enough to see the big diagnostic of the leaf and i and then of course the L in liberty in relation to the cap.

    the article below is for the discovery specimen (really enjoyed hearing it was GIFTED from the original purchaser) while the OP coin is basically a confirmation piece. always nice to have a second example for such things and R. Burress has told me stories of coin situations like this one where a secondary "confirmation" piece REALLY helps grease the wheels of a discovery being widely accepted along with the various diagnostics, ESPECIALLY for coinage in this era where new info. is slowly but consistently coming to light.












    OP coin below




    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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    gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinloverjon Take the 5 figures and let somebody else deal with the problems on it.

    Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM

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    I discovered an interesting fact over the years of looking at literally hundreds of worn C-6's ( both thick and thin varieties).
    On almost every one, the RICA in AMERICA and the leaves next to those letters and part of the fraction were the last surviving details on the Reverse. The Cap and L in Liberty were the survivors on the Obverse (opposite those features). I believe that the dies made a stronger/deeper impression in that area so, when the coin wore, that area was the last to go.
    Very fortunate for us collectors since those features are key to making an identification of this variety, even on worn examples.
    In this case those features and the small style edge lettering (see picture) were key.
    The story of my acquisition of this coin is explained in detail in a letter to a fellow EAC member if anyone is interested in hearing it?
    Jon

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    Here are the original ebay pictures of the coin.
    Did not look like much did it?

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    Glen2022Glen2022 Posts: 843 ✭✭✭✭

    @coinloverjon said:
    I discovered an interesting fact over the years of looking at literally hundreds of worn C-6's ( both thick and thin varieties).
    On almost every one, the RICA in AMERICA and the leaves next to those letters and part of the fraction were the last surviving details on the Reverse. The Cap and L in Liberty were the survivors on the Obverse (opposite those features). I believe that the dies made a stronger/deeper impression in that area so, when the coin wore, that area was the last to go.
    Very fortunate for us collectors since those features are key to making an identification of this variety, even on worn examples.
    In this case those features and the small style edge lettering (see picture) were key.
    The story of my acquisition of this coin is explained in detail in a letter to a fellow EAC member if anyone is interested in hearing it?
    Jon

    Love stories. Please share. Thanks.

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    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinloverjon said:
    Here are the original ebay pictures of the coin.
    Did not look like much did it?

    .
    not being a half cent expert, why can't this be a 1796 no pole? it has close L in liberty and the I by the leaf. not really much else to compare w/o having it in hand i presume.

    no thick planchets in 96, or lettered edges?

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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    jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,303 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Jon,
    Would love to read your letter of explanation of the purchase and any details of the diagnostics for this coin.
    Thanks,
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
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    jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,303 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinloverjon

    I have a question, why did Ed number the new find a C-6b when this is already used for the plain edge? Both NGC and PCGS have listed their C-6b's as plain edges and NGC lists both plain edge and lettered edge as C-6b. Why not list them as C-6c or some other less confusing label. Just curious.
    Jim



    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
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    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jesbroken said:
    Why not list them as C-6c or some other less confusing label. Just curious.
    Jim


    fwiw, in the video, during the time recommended, that was suggested.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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    As far as it possibly being a 1796, the I in AMERICA almost touches the leaf below it on my example. There is a barely perceptible space.
    The 1796's use only one reverse and it's leaf has quite a bit of space between the I and the leaf and it is rotated further left (counter clockwise).
    The L in LIBERTY is also more distant from the Cap on the 1796 if you closely compare the two.
    There is one known example of a C-2, thick, plain edge, 1796 half cent. but none with edge lettering.
    Probably a left over cut down large cent planchet from 1795.
    I actually like to refer to my example as a 1795 C-6c, because I am used to that numbering/lettering system.
    Ed mentions in his new book, that he wants to eventually get our new variety in the Red Book.
    Since the Red Book does not use Cohen numbers but uses a one line description instead he is suggesting using
    -1795 No Pole, Lettered Edge- for a Red Book Description ( see The Half Cent Handbook, Fuhrman, page 216)

    Stay tuned for my letter to an EAC member describing this find on ebay!!

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                                                                                                                     The Letter
    

    Tim,

    I thought I might share my story about ebay and the 1795 lettered Edge C-6b ( some are calling a C-6c) purchase, with you.

    I saw it on ebay, when it was first listed and took a quick glance, and thought it was interesting, because of the loop soldered to it, as a jewelry piece.

    That first night, I did not even look at all of the pictures of it, but put it in my watch box, to look at later.

    I like to test myself and try to ID very worn half cents, especially ones without dates, by their other features.

    The next day something told me to take a closer look at this piece.

    I noticed that it had a small head obverse, so I knew it was a 1795 ,1796 or 1797 and not a 1793 or 1794.

    The reverse picture of it, on ebay, was very poor, but, using my picture editing program, I was able to clean it up a bit.

    Then flipping it over 180 degrees, I noticed what looked like faint, broken, images of "RICA" in AMERICA and a few leaves.

    Using my overlay program, I became reasonably sure it was a "D" reverse (only used on a Cohen 6)

    The seller had about seven or eight pictures of the coin.

    But, unless you scrolled all the way to the end , you would not see the edge lettering picture.

    This is what Ed Fuhrman, who also looked at it, did not do, luckily for me.

    As you know, some of the 1795's ( C-1 and C-2a) have edge lettering, but the large style.

    There is only one variety , the C-6c, with the small lettering.

    I wrote to the seller and had him weigh the item for me and he said it weighed about 105 grains, (a thick planchet).

    At this point, It sure seemed like a 1795 C-6, thick planchet, with small edge lettering, to me!

    This seemed too good to be true and I have to admit, I questioned my analysis of it, a lot!

    After all, what are the odds that I had been emailing the guy who discovered the first example and, a year later, found the second?

    Impossible! But there it was.

    I further questioned my identification of the coin when, in the last 24 hours, one of the bidders withdrew his bid and the price briefly dropped down below $20.00.

    Woah! Was I really seeing what I thought I was seeing on this coin, or was it just wishful thinking? Why did this other bidder decide it was not worth bidding on?

    I have to admit, I re-ran my overlay program a few more times, on the last day of the listing, just to re-assure myself.

    Anyway, I won the item and it was to arrive on a Saturday.

    I was as nervous as a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs, waiting to see and verify my impossible find, in person.

    But, as fate would have it, the mail was delayed until Monday and I was a nervous wreck , thinking that perhaps, it was lost in the mail.

    When I finally did get it, I was pleasantly surprised that the reverse , using the proper lighting and angle, was in a lot better condition, than shown in the seller's pictures.

    The seller's poor pictures were another bit of luck for me, because, only someone, who has seen a lot of these C-6 's, would ever recognize it's "D" reverse ( see picture) with only the ebay picture provided.

    And yes, it was what I thought.

    The rarest coin in my almost 62 years of collecting!

    I took some pictures and immediately emailed Ed Fuhrman and told him I had acquired a new coin.
    I wrote something like:

    It has a 1795, no-pole, head

    and a "D" reverse

    on a 104.4 grain planchet

    with small edge lettering.

    What do I have?

    We had never actually ever spoken on the phone, at that point, but when he got my email, he asked me to call him, and when he answered he said:

    "I hear congratulations are in order"

    His verification sealed the deal and made my day!

    Heck, it made my year!

    I am including the original reverse picture from ebay and one of mine with better lighting.

    As a coin guy, I thought you could understand my excitement!

    Jon

                                                                                                                  Some Additional Coin History
    

    I usually write to the sellers that I buy from, to try to get a little history behind my purchases.

    In this case he had some:

    Hi Jon,
    Thanks for your message and the positive feedback. Much appreciated.
    This piece came from a local coin dealer who had acquired it from a gentleman from Salem, Massachusetts.
    He indicated that it had been in his family for many generations, at least as far back as his great-grandfather.
    Unfortunately, he didn't have any more details to share.
    In any case, we hope you continue to enjoy the coin, it's a classic.
    Take care,
    Jim

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    savitalesavitale Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Cool story! If the grime is really dirt or some easily removed substance I would remove it as there should be no adverse effect if done carefully. I would probably leave the eyelet, at this point it is part of the coin's history.

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