DCAM vs CAM, how noticeable is the difference?
Batman23
Posts: 4,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
I am not experienced with proofs other than seeing modern proof sets. I really haven't see many in hand, my location does not give me the opportunity to view coins in hand. I have seen plenty of pictures and I would like to add one to the collection. The appearance of the same coin can have drastic differences just on light angles... black mirrors with ice frost or shinny reflective fields and not so much contrast. I have been looking at a couple of proof seated liberty quarters but they are from different sellers with different lighting.
My options are 64+DCAM or 65CAM for about the same money. There is a 65+CAM for a bit more. I see a 66+DCAM I would like to snag but I expect that will far exceed my budget when it sells. I like the look of the 64+DCAM with the black and white contrast. A couple field marks are probably responsible for the 64 grade. The CAMs just don't seem to have that contrast I like but I also feel part of that is in the photography.
So for you guys with experience with proofs, Is there going to be much noticeable difference between a 64+DCAM and a 65CAM? I would be interested to hear your experience on the pros and cons of each of the two grades. Touching on the frost and contrast mostly. Of course this is in general as photos are not presented here and if they were, they are taken with different lighting and angle methods.
Comments
I’m not an expert, but it’s really tough to say without at least seeing each coin. Some DCAMs are DEEP and some regular CAMs barely make it. With that said, a resubmitting of the 64+DCAM could bring it back as a 65CAM (for all I know without seeing it).
Basically what I’m trying to say is there’s not a hard line between the two. You’ll know a really nice, slam dunk DCAM when you see it, below that, it gets more murky for me.
That's along with what I was expecting. I am sure an in-hand inspection is almost needed. For one level of consistency these are all PCGS graded in newer holders.
Food for thought. One might get on the PCGS Registry website. Pick out an individual set that has Trueview images of CAM and DCAM coins of the same grade. Images would be a lot more comparable than images taken by two different dealers.
I like that idea. Thanks. I'll give that a look.
@Tom147 gave some good advice.
Here are a pair of 1961 Lincoln's, one CAM and one DCAM, both from Coinfacts. Both aren't the same grade but can give you a clue of what to look for if copper.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
jesbroken, Nice example. I was actually looking myself when you posted. DAMN, you're good. LOL
Keep in mind, that there are degrees of and inconsistencies in Cameo and Deep Cameo. Sometimes an example of the former might look just as good as one of the latter. And images won’t necessarily show you what you want to know.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Good luck with your search... This is a tough area of evaluation... even for skilled collectors. Let us know what you get. Cheers, RickO
MFeld Agree with you. I have a few Kennedy proofs that illustrate this example. Cameo actually looks more cameo than the DCAM. Subtle differences but unless I'm missing something and I'll freely admit I'm lacking in my grading skills DCAM's not as nice contrast as the Cameos. As for the images, my thinking was the Trueview pictures " should " be under the same conditions. Definitely should be more consistant than pictures from 2 different sources.
Though the CAMs and DCAMs I collect are a bit newer than yours, I think my thought process may help you out. I think it's a decision whether you want a high grade coin or one where the cameo contrast really pops. I've often struggled with that decision when I have a potential upgrade for my set. I will generally keep the one that has the heaviest contrast and frost that pops. You may also find yourself comparing a coin with super heavy contrast and fields that aren't as deep with a coin that has ultra deep fields and a lighter level of contrast. Personally I think you are less likely to be disappointed in keeping the one with the heaviest contrast, especially if you're not playing in the top numeric grades.
One other thought process that I believe @Keets and I developed in a thread some time ago is to think of DCAM as a "Damn...CAM" as in when you look at it you know instantly that it's a cameo as opposed to a regular CAM where you may need to look at it and tilt the coin under different light to really find the contrast.
Good luck...you will have made the right choice if the coin meets your goals; whatever those might be.
What say you about this one? CAM or DCAM?
Great coin, Kevin. Unfortunately, I'd see it getting a CAM...if only the fields were deeper, the frost appears to be there from your photo. May be a coin toss between being a 66CAM and a 65DCAM? With only 49 DCAMs vs. 903 CAMs overall, I'd take the DCAM personally, if they offered me the choice...which they don't.
The point I remember from a PCGS person a long time ago was that the mirrors on a CAM are reflective to something like up to 3 inches away and that DCAM mirrors are reflective to at least something like 6 or 8 inches or more...
Coins are Neato!
"If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone...somewhere...is making a penny." - Steven Wright
That sounds like PL vs. DMPL, not CAM vs. DCAM.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Senior moment :-)
Coins are Neato!
"If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone...somewhere...is making a penny." - Steven Wright
The degree of frost is a continuum and changes as the dies wear. Fresh dies produce dcams until enough wear lowers the contrast to cam and eventually to brilliant. The big question is where on the continuum a particular coin lies and that is one area where the grading is subjective. I've had coins grade cam and then resubmit and they get dcam. Truth is, the coins were great cameos but poor dcams. This is where + grades are helpful.
All in all, buy what you like best and hopefully you can see them in hand. Personally, I value contrast more than technical grade - others like high grades with some contrast.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
After looking at a few coin facts proofs of a different era, I would think the obverse is DCAM and the reverse is CAM. What are your thoughts with it in hand?
I thought that this topic would be pretty deep.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
No doubt, with contrasting views.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
So I have looked over a few years of CAM/DCAM on coinfacts with trueviews of some consistency. I will say that some I can see a difference and others I could see them as being in either category... the borderline ones as mentioned. One of the CAMs I was looking at looks more DCAM but after closer looking I see Liberty lost some frost from her breasts and knees which probably dropped it into the CAM range. Looks like this is mostly a crap shoot picking from photos.
with CAM and DCAM the prime factor in the designation is the clarity and reflective depth of the fields surrounding the portraits and lettering. a Brilliant Proof can have very clear, watery appearing fields that look like mirrored glass around the portraits and lettering that look the same. adding frost on the portraits and lettering will allow for the Cameo or Deep Cameo designation, depending on the depth and completeness of the frost. you can have a coin with heavy frost that will only grade Cameo if the fields are cloudy or have excessive flow lines showing. conversely, you can have a coin with a little weaker frost and clear, deep black fields that will be graded Deep Cameo.
as Don mentioned, when you see a coin that "has it all" you'll really know it. personally, for the coins you are looking at I would not so much care about the numerical grade. with frost and mirrored fields, there will be something at the 64-65 level which will be accentuated by those characteristics, you'll just have to accept that. what you shouldn't accept is cloudy fields or a contrast between the mirrors and the frost that is ho-hum. you should be able to find a coin with nice clear fields that make the portraits and lettering appear to rise up off the surface of the coin.
As others have mentioned, CAM vs. DCAM is not always black and white (get it?) but a matter of degree. Like many other designations (e.g., RB vs. RD on copper, FH on SLQs) some just barely make it and some are no doubters. The no doubters can and do command significant premiums, even relative to other coins within the same grade/designation. Unless the buyer is just paying for the plastic, and we know none of us do that...
For purposes of clarification, in your first sentence, did you mean, as written, “.. with CAM and DCAM the prime factor in the grade ...” or did you mean “.. with CAM and DCAM the prime factor in the designation...” ?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
My opinion of the 1965 half I posted is that the the fields are much better in hand than what is shown in the photo; that the fields do not warrant a DCAM designation; that the frost on the obverse is the best I have seen on a 1965 half; that the reverse frost is also very high quality; that the half is the best 1965 Cameo I have acquired; and I have no idea what the coin would grade.
When a group of us pushed for cameo and deep cameo proof designations, the criteria was black and white coins. NGC had already adopted cameo and ultra cameo. The ideal coin was black and white. If there were frost breaks or not quite deep enough white frosting or black mirrors it might receive the cameo designation. In my opinion PCGS has diverged from the original idea. I have seen many coins that are graded cameo or deep cameo that are not only toned, but heavily toned. This is more of an issue with non-modern coins or copper. Sometimes there is just a small portion of frosting and the rest of the coin is deeply toned. Both types of coins appear in the pop reports as cam or deep cameos.
I have looked at some of these coins you speak of in the coinfacts pages. They are definitely not black and white. With the color it is more difficult for me to picture if there are mirrors and frost. They may be pretty but not what I was expecting under DCAM. I would like to see one of these in hand.
Please excuse a novice question: I am presuming these coins are only purchased from the mint and never circulated before their original purchase. On that assumption: does the mint make a DCAM and CAM distinction, or is that luck of the draw when the coin is purchased from the mint?
Luck of the draw. On moderns it is kind of rare for a proof to be anything but DCAM. The coins I am talking about are not moderns. However look at the two 1961 cents that jesbroken posted above. The CAM is nice but the DCAM has more frost and contrast. Read the post above from Cameonut as he describes that with die use the DCAM quality changes.
I have seen many coins that are graded cameo or deep cameo that are not only toned, but heavily toned.
it has been my observation and experience that PCGS doesn't like to designate toned coins as Deep Cameo. that presents a problem with this series since the coins tend, over time and due to storage, to tone vividly and sometimes with a thick skin. the entire Liberty Seated Quarter series has less than 200 Deep Cameo coins designated as such by PCGS. to me, that means that you'll either be buying a coin which has had some degree of dipping/conservation performed on it or else it'll be at least moderately toned. paying the extra money for the designation when you could buy a lovely toned coin, undesignated as Cameo or Deep Cameo, would seem a better choice.
Here are two 67 CAMs followed by a 67 DCAM of the same year.
They all have a very different look. The first one is definitely not black and white.
Neither is the second one.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
And a couple of 66s that did not CAM/DCAM
The second one looks Cameo to me.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
For @nickelsciolist: CAM and DCAM are for Proof coins only. Business strikes that exhibit this contract are called Proof-Like (PL) and only a few series outside of Morgans can get that designation (but that list is growing).
The key with CAM/DCAM is that it's a continuum. A high-end CAM and a just-made DCAM may look almost the same, or given that grading is an art and not a science, the CAM could even be better. A low to mid CAM compared to a solid DCAM will be noticeably less impressive. It's similar to numeric grades. Putting plus-grading aside for a moment, a really nice 64 can look like a mediocre 65. A ho-hum 64 will show much more difference with a just-missed-66 65.
One other consideration: the way coins get lit, contrast often gets exaggerated in photos of proof coins. It's just how it is and not necessarily deception by the seller. If a coin shows even a hint of contrast (but not CAM), the right lighting can make it look CAM or better. Something to keep in mind if you're just looking at photos.
Is there an actual science behind determining the amount of contrast which brings a DCAM rather than a CAM designation?
My degree is in commercial photography so I think it would be easy to quantify measured light meter readings within certain areas to determine a contrast % of light returned between the frosted and mirrored. I'm just saying.
Here's a great example of two of my DCAMs I have that are the exact same grade under the same lighting no tricks.
So how much D can a DCAM CAM?
Coins are Neato!
"If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone...somewhere...is making a penny." - Steven Wright