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Is Paypal's Fee Free payment for a forum purchase unethical?
derryb
Posts: 36,217 ✭✭✭✭✭
Two type of PP payments, Fee Free or Fee based. Feel free to discuss your answer. Recall reading on the forum in the past that some members consider such Fee Free payments a violation of paypal terms.
Note: just discovered the latest forum software does not allow for the editing of Poll choices.
The second choice should read "No, not unethical. The fee is for protection, not the transfer of money."
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Is Paypal's Fee Free payment for a forum purchase unethical?
This is a public poll: others will see what you voted for.
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I voted no but real answer is HELL NO
I accept responsibility for a no fee payment made to me and I have a pile of ruined underwear to prove it.
Hopefully, there will be no confusion. But “Not unethical”
probably would have been a better option than “No, unethical”.
Edited to add: I see that the second choice had/has been edited - good.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Yes, it's unethical...what's the difference between ripping off Paypal and ripping off a customer? The amount of money involved? That's like the old story of offering a woman 1 million dollars to sleep with you and then offering 10. If she says yes to the first she's still the same--it's just a matter of price.
See OP, software will not let one edit poll choices.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Venomo charges no fee to transfer money because they offer no protection for the reason it was sent.
When I send PP funds for a forum purchase, it is either to a friend I trust (a no fee payment) or it is to a stranger who has not yet earned trust (a fee based payment). When it comes to a paypal transfer of funds, what the money is for is irrelevant. Note that paypal does provide for a choice of which party pays the fee when a fee based payment is chosen by the payee.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
From PayPal:
Selling with PayPal
When you buy or sell goods or services, make any other commercial type of transaction, send or receive a charity donation, or receive a payment when you “request money” using PayPal, we call that a “commercial transaction”.
For the listings of selling rates, please visit our PayPal Merchant Fees Page.
Just sayin'.
Amount involved is irrelevant between friends. Just today I received a fee free payment of 2362.50 for coins from a trusted friend who trusts me. Maybe those who receive fee free payments from friends don't consider it a ripoff. The ripoff is paying paypal the 2.9% for protection when protection is not needed. Even paypal recognizes the need to offer fee free, protection free transfers.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Thinking about it further, precisely how do you distinguish between a fee for “the transfer of money” vs. one for “protection“? Aren’t they interrelated? And is fee-free permitted for the latter and clearly defined under PayPal policy?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
remember it is their business!!! and their terms.
and the buyer's choice of how he pays you,
in Europe, the buyer pays a fee to the seller of up to 5% for the seller to recuperate his Paypal fees.
the only advantage IMO is PP insurance pretty well anywhere. NO postal insurance needed. just proof of shipping or receiving.
Actual friends are one thing. I'm not sure that is the spirit of the poll.
Does it matter that that is not how PayPal defines it? See @MasonG post above.
If it is a commercial transaction, you are supposed to pay the fee.
As for "protection", I assume that if someone hacks your PayPal account you don't expect PayPal to make you whole for any money lost.
"When you buy or sell goods or services, make any other commercial type of transaction, send or receive a charity donation, or receive a payment when you “request money” using PayPal, we call that a “commercial transaction."
This applies when one uses the "Request" button/option in paypal or when one sends or responds to a Paypal "request for money" or "invoice." Paypal's statement is their justification for why they call it a commercial application and charge the fee when you use their "request" or "send invoice" options or make a payment in reply to either of them. Requesting money be sent via paypal outside of paypal is not the same as sending a "request for money" from paypal.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
It was "OR request money"
Maybe you need more options. If it is really a friend, then "friends & family" applies. If it is a commercial transaction and you are calling the person a "friend" to avoid the fees, then that is unethical.
your goods that you ship or receive are ONLY covered when the full transaction cost is paid through PP!
as I said above: it is PP's business and their terms. nobody forces anybody to use PP. Fair or not fair??? who cares???
I never did it until a board member called PayPal, asked them this very question, and PayPal told him it was perfectly fine to do. He posted the details of his conversation on a thread here on the U.S. Coin Forum - I want to say 3-5 years ago now.
Wondercoin
I think I voted the opposite of what I intended. If you trust someone enough to not require protection I don’t think you should have to pay the fee which is for the protection so it’s not unethical.
Mr_Spud
Thank you.
In the absence of PayPal terms which clearly contradict the above, I’d like to change my vote to “Unethical.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Also from the PayPal site:
"You can send money to friends and family or pay for goods and services in the Send & Request tab at the top of the PayPal page.
If you’re sending a payment, payment types include:
Sending to a friend and family - used when sending money or a gift card to a friend or family member. Before you complete a payment, you can opt to pay the fee, or pass it onto the recipient to be covered by PayPal Purchase Protection.
Paying for goods or service - used when buying an item or service from someone. When you make a purchase, the seller pays a small fee to receive your money. Your payment is covered by our protection policy automatically.
You can make a personal payment to anyone in the U.S. for free. Just make sure that you pay for the entire payment using your bank account or, if you have a PayPal Cash account or PayPal Cash Plus account, your balance. There is a small charge for payments made with a debit or credit card."
Note that "paying for goods or services" is different than "sending money or a gift card". The emphasis is on the purchasing.
You are paying for more than protection - you are paying for the knowledge and certainty that the funds arrived and are good. I don't have to worry about the check bouncing after I ship the item. Honestly it is 3% and if you have a credit card that pays you 1.5% (if not - why not?) you are paying 1.5% as a buying for some peace of mind. On a $2000 purchase it is $30...
That said - I am using Venmo more for payments related to our sports league as the fees being charged have shot up due to mergers. I have also purchased items from members via Venmo which is owned by PayPal and will probably replace F&F in the new year
Are “forum purchases” as referenced in the thread title, necessarily purchases by “friends“?
I wouldn’t think so.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Don't amounts like that tend to attract PP's attention? How many such transfers before they terminate your privilege to accept no fee payments? They cost PP at least $.29 per transaction.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
I voted ‘yes’, but to be honest, I’ve done it 😱
Dave
For those saying it is unethical, were you around in the early days when it promised it would always be free?
At one point PP had made it clear that "gift" payments went beyond literal gifts and explicitly listed rent payments and utility payments as permissible "gift" payments. It comes down to protection versus no protection.
“For those saying it is unethical, were you around in the early days when it promised it would always be free?”
Or just this past Summer where Sellers lost nearly all (or all?) seller protection if shipping a gold coin to a buyer!
Wondercoin
Yet, Paypal offers the OPTION of not having their coverage. For those I trust I choose the option of no fee.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Does PP make a buyer whole if the USPS loses the package? Don't think so; that's the USPS' responsibility.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
I don’t know whether PayPal broke a promise. But even if they did, it wouldn’t excuse a violation of agreed-upon terms.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I'm confused, I just don't understand the question. If I'm selling a coin, I want to be paid the money agreed to without fees, like if someone was paying me at a show with cash or a check. What do ethics have to do with this? I'm missing something I guess....
Not sure how it would help in some cases, but it seems to me that each party should pay one half of the fee. Why should a recipient have to eat the entire fee as a cost of selling when he/she may not be able to add said fee to the selling price?
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
yes
The question is whether it is unethical to bypass the service fees.
If you are selling a coin at a show and accept a credit card, you pay a fee. PayPal has credit card like fees. The question is whether it is "ethical" to use the service without paying the fee.
PayPal created this problem by having the "Friends & Family" option for transferring cash. Unlike a credit card, it allows you to waive the fee by only sending cash and claiming it is a cash transfer to F&F.
I guess it depends on what your definition of friend is. Can't we all just be friends even if only superficially? And science tells us we all descend from a common ancestor. You're probably my 200th cousin. We're all family in a scientific sense. PayPal never defines "family" either. Do step children, brother/sister in law, and the dear old lady who was practically a third grandmother to you that isn't immediate family all count?
A few points:
1. "[P]ayment types include..." Notably it does not say it is limited to those options.
2. "You can make a personal payment to anyone in the U.S. for free." PayPal doesn't define "personal." Its legal and lay dictionary definitions are quite broad and could reasonably be read to cover the situations posited in the OP.
Maybe the Poll should have been "Would you accept or make a fee free paypal payment for a coin sale on the forum."
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
"The question is whether it is "ethical" to use the service without paying the fee."
Ok, thanks for the clarification, Yes, it is ethical to use this service without paying a fee, heck Paypal set it up that way at first. I have been using them since they started in 1998. Yes, they have the right to change their business model and yes I did agree to it becasue I was not really given a choice. It worked so well.
So my argument is that "we" that started with them in 1998 should have been grandfathered in so to speak and it should be a free service to those folks for both buyer and seller with all the protection services they provide.
"The question is whether it is "ethical" to use the service without paying the fee."
One cannot use Paypals buyer protection service unless one pays for it.
Then you say "what about their service to transfer money?"
Then I say, "other processors such as Venmo charge no fee to simply transfer money, what makes you think paypal does?" After all they do offer Fee Free service.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
I think almost any reasonable adult would say using the friends and family version of PayPal to avoid a fee is unethical in the most strict sense of ethics. On the other hand, many people can justify why they think avoiding the fee is not really that big of a deal. First and foremost, many people do not look at a corporation or government as a person and therefore consider it o.k. to game the system because it is not actually harming an individual. In addition, many people justify their actions because the dollar amount is so small that they feel it doesn't matter. Finally, many people justify their actions because everyone else around here does it therefore it must be o.k. I could go on and on but from a purely ethical standpoint, I feel the answer to your question is quite obvious.
So why is this a moral dilemma? Why do we have such differing opinions on this topic? I have used PP friends and family on the forum and never really considered it a moral dilemma until it was brought up on the forum. I never really considered buying and selling on the forum as commercial activity. On the contrary, I kind of think of it as me buying or selling something at my local coin club. I wouldn't charge or pay sales tax in that circumstance either. Should I? probably. Is it unethical not to do it? probably. So why don't I? It is such a small amount and happens so infrequently that I really can't see putting in the effort. Am I a bad person for not doing it? I hope not.
The funny thing about ethics in my opinion is that none of us are perfect even if we act like we are. I could find an unethical behavior in every person on this forum if I could look directly into all your past interactions and thoughts. Ethics is really about trying to live your life in a way that does good and causes as little harm as possible. In other words, what would most ethical people do in this situation? When we get to the grey areas, we all have different moral codes to justify our actions. That is why ethics and morality are such an interesting topic. There really is no right or wrong answer to just about any true moral dilemma.
This is so silly. PayPal's terms of service CLEARLY state that if you are selling goods or services you are to use the fee-based payment. It doesn't matter if you are selling goods or services to friends/family or not. I find it very hard to believe that any competent adult would not understand that. You agreed to these terms, so going back on your word is certainly unethical.
I think the real question is, "Is it okay to occasionally do unethical things?" That's a question for each person to decide for themselves. I'm guilty of occasionally misusing the F&F PayPal payment for selling goods and services. I imagine most PayPal users are.
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
I don't see a problem with it. As has been said, the fee buys you protection and covers credit card fees. If I want to opt out of buyer/seller protection and use of a credit card for a transaction, my options are PP F&F or a different feeless payment (Venmo, Facedbook Messenger, Zelle, etc.) PP is offering a feeless payment option to keep customers on their platform and to have them keep cash in their PP accounts.
Perhaps the "Friends & Family" is a name given to feeless payments through their site to make those who use the feature for more than just giving a friend or family member money feel guilty for doing so.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
While the situation is a bit different, in hunter education classes we looked at ethical behavior as what would you do if no one was looking/watching.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
Seems like this topic has come up dozens of times in the past. The answer always has been and remains NO!
Are the terms "personal payment" and "commercial transaction" necessarily mutually exclusive? I do not interpret the terms to be mutually exclusive. Moreover when you submit funds the phrase "commercial transaction" is conspicuously absent and you are presented with a fee or fee free option, both of which could apply to a given transaction. PayPal explicitly allows personal payments to anyone in the U.S. for free on its webpage distinguishing between "friends and family" and regular PayPal option. If anything I see it as vagueness/ambiguity by PayPal rather than an ethical issue per se.
I pay the fee when I buy stuff from BST
100% positive transactions with SurfinxHI, bigole, 1madman, collectorcoins, proofmorgan, Luke Marshall, silver pop, golden egg, point five zero,coin22lover, alohagary, blaircountycoin,joebb21
@BAJJERFAN
What would I do if everyone was watching even though no one is around?
Paypal will limit your account if they suspect you are using F&F payments for selling goods and services. These people can no longer accept F&F payments. Is that not clear enough?
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/About-Payments-Archive/quot-Friends-and-Family-quot-use-among-hobbyists-buying-and/td-p/1007341
"Lastly, it is against the PayPal User Agreement to accept personal payments for the sale of goods and services. The ability to receive personal payments could be disabled if the feature is abused. That's not something we want to have happen with any customer as they would then completely lose the option. Even for friends and family."
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
I don’t think those terms are (always) necessarily mutually exclusive. However, a typical purchase/sale is a commercial transaction. And it doesn’t seem to me as if most commercial transactions on the BST are between friends and family members.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Why is everyone ignoring that someone called PayPal to ask this very question and PayPal said it was okay?
CN eBay
All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
Maybe they’re unaware of it. Or heard about it, but were skeptical that the PayPal rep was correct. Or believed it at that time, but now have reason to believe it’s no longer OK.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I always considered the fee to be for paying with a credit card and the protection to be secondary. When you pay Paypal goods and service and get hit with the fee, you pay with a credit card. Likewise, you actually can pay with Paypal friends and family and use a credit card, it just gets you hit with a fee, it's actually larger than the PPGS fee if I remember correctly. You can also do Paypal friends and family with no card for no fee which is what the question was.
That being said, if you pay Paypal friends and family for a coin, be really careful, be sure to write no comments in the comment box. If not, you risk getting in trouble with paypal.
Successful transactions with: wondercoin, Tetromibi, PerryHall, PlatinumDuck, JohnMaben/Pegasus Coin & Jewelry, CoinFlip, and coinlieutenant.
Why would you get in trouble with PayPal if you’re not violating their terms?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.