@opportunity said:
Cost of doing business, my man. You should eat the fees.
I agree totally. I generally stay away from sellers that don't offer returns unless they have large, extremely clear pictures. I know I can file a SNAD, but I prefer to just stay away from that hassle.
When one returns something to WalMart, does Walmart deduct fees for the stocker, sales person, and cashier, etc? No. It's just the cost of doing business.
That sounds like a poor analogy. Walmart doesn’t conduct auctions. And their terms of sale don’t typically exclude returns or include a restocking fee.
It's an inexact analogy, certainly.
You also can't really use an auction company for comparison. If you conduct business through eBay, you don't have exclusive right to dictate your terms and conditions.
If you accept credit cards or any 3rd party payment processor, you also don't have exclusive right to dictate terms and conditions.
I don't know about Heritage specifically, but I assume that if a client filed a chargeback, the CC company could compel a return, could they not? Regardless of Heritage's terms and conditions.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Well, Here's my analogy...good drivers know the unwritten rules of the road, just as a dealer should and from what you write you seem to. I guess he's a school teacher with an NGC and CAC account!
@amwldcoin said:
I see you aren't a true dealer in the comradery of things. We obviously do business differently. I do not waste other dealers time and money on the chance a customer might buy a coin from me if I buy it. If I take the chance, I buy the coin and own it if my customer does not buy it.
We actually are having a very civil conversation. I would not have said anything if he hadn't informed me he was a dealer. He does not want to maintain an inventory during these times. He actually sent me his NGC + CAC member numbers! According to him it's 50/50 whether his customer will buy the coin. What surprises me is why didn't he just google me and contact me directly! I do this all the time.
And For your Information, knocks on wood before he writes this, I have won my last 2 SNADS, the only ones I have received this year!
@opportunity said:
Cost of doing business, my man. You should eat the fees.
I disagree, if the photos were accurate and the listing stated the restocking fee. Furthermore, I don't believe the OP "eating the fees" is in play here.
I'm not sure why "eating the fees" isn't in play here.
eBay policies trump any listing conditions that run contrary to them. SNAD trumps the buyers re-stocking fee.
Of course I'm not a "true dealer" because I disagree with you. I assume comraderie, in this context, means scolding a dealer who dares to consider exercising the right of return that YOU PROVIDED?
I have NEVER returned a coin to anyone. I eat my mistakes. Does that make me a true dealer?
I also recognize that returns are part of the retail landscape and just don't feel like getting in an uproar when someone exercises the right. Chargebacks, lost/damaged packages, fraud...also part of the retail landscape and part of the cost of doing business. They all suck a bit, but unavoidable.
P.S. Note that just because your customer calls himself a dealer doesn't mean he's anything but a schoolteacher with an eBay hobby...oh, kind of like me. A fake dealer who lacks "comraderie" but believes in customer service.
@amwldcoin said:
Well, Here's my analogy...good drivers know the unwritten rules of the road, just as a dealer should and from what you write you seem to. I guess he's a school teacher with an NGC and CAC account!
@amwldcoin said:
I see you aren't a true dealer in the comradery of things. We obviously do business differently. I do not waste other dealers time and money on the chance a customer might buy a coin from me if I buy it. If I take the chance, I buy the coin and own it if my customer does not buy it.
We actually are having a very civil conversation. I would not have said anything if he hadn't informed me he was a dealer. He does not want to maintain an inventory during these times. He actually sent me his NGC + CAC member numbers! According to him it's 50/50 whether his customer will buy the coin. What surprises me is why didn't he just google me and contact me directly! I do this all the time.
And For your Information, knocks on wood before he writes this, I have won my last 2 SNADS, the only ones I have received this year!
@opportunity said:
Cost of doing business, my man. You should eat the fees.
I disagree, if the photos were accurate and the listing stated the restocking fee. Furthermore, I don't believe the OP "eating the fees" is in play here.
I'm not sure why "eating the fees" isn't in play here.
eBay policies trump any listing conditions that run contrary to them. SNAD trumps the buyers re-stocking fee.
Of course I'm not a "true dealer" because I disagree with you. I assume comraderie, in this context, means scolding a dealer who dares to consider exercising the right of return that YOU PROVIDED?
I have NEVER returned a coin to anyone. I eat my mistakes. Does that make me a true dealer?
I also recognize that returns are part of the retail landscape and just don't feel like getting in an uproar when someone exercises the right. Chargebacks, lost/damaged packages, fraud...also part of the retail landscape and part of the cost of doing business. They all suck a bit, but unavoidable.
P.S. Note that just because your customer calls himself a dealer doesn't mean he's anything but a schoolteacher with an eBay hobby...oh, kind of like me. A fake dealer who lacks "comraderie" but believes in customer service.
LOL.
Fair enough.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
I totally understand the reasoning of the op, and if the buyer is just a dealer who is looking to resell, probably the price paid was kind of high to start with. Returns happen, and you have to live with that. However if a coin is certified and properly graded there is not a lot of justification unless the images were far off.
This is part of selling and ebay makes it (too) easy for returns. When on the occasion I sell on the BST, I can sometimes have inquiries from dealers who want to flip, or crack for upgrade (although they don't tell me that they are gonna try this and profit more this way). Most of these dealers here are easy to work with on these types of issues, and sometimes it works out. On ebay, it is harder to know who you are dealiung with many times (collector, dealer, etc.), so more risk in that regard. Still from what I hear (I haven't sold on ebay since 2011), most of the ebay deals work out. This is just one of those unusual ones. Good thread to discuss this.
Unfortunately ebay and paypal promote tire kicking/window shopping buyers at the monetary expense of the seller. You can try to limit returns by not accepting returns or requiring buyer pay return shipping, but that only encourages them to claim "not as described," which can affect your seller status with ebay. Such buyers don't care that their seller has to eat the expense.
Only recourse is to block him and PM me his ebay ID so I can block him. If enough forum members in all of the coin forums would share bad buyer info, eventually bad buyers will be limited where they can buy on ebay.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
I am writing this because you have told me you are trying to resell the coin. I have been a dealer for over 25 years and buying on ebay for over 20 years. I have bought probably 2-3 million dollars worth of coins on ebay. I can count the amount of coins I've returned on less than 2 hands. Sure, I may loose a little on some but 9 times out of 10 it was on me. I have learned over the years how to judge pictures and know when to take a gamble due to people who do not know how to take pictures, etc. etc.. My pictures are probably in the top 5% on ebay as far as accuracy. The coin being darker than you thought probably has to do with the differences in the settings between our monitors. If you have the brightness on your monitor turned up high, the coin will appear lighter than it is. I learned a long time ago most people, including myself turn down the brightness on their monitors because of the detrimental effect on your eyes. On my monitor the pictures of the coin are spot on.
Ebay is not an approval service for dealers and most play by those rules. This is why so many dealers, including myself gave up the top rated seller discount because of the abuse of free returns. I really don't get many returns but it is a principal as it is always folks trying to sell a coin for a profit and return it when they can't sell it. There is a growing comradery of ebay coin dealers that share their experiences with buyers. The only weapon dealers have is to block bidders, which we do.
Just thought I would offer this "food for thought".
Best Regards,
There is no chance you wrote that response to the buyer. Come on, there is not a single exclamation point to be found!
Edited to add !
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
@airplanenut said:
Very little will sway eBay if the buyer provides an opinion contrary to anything the seller did, unless it's ludicrous or inconsistent (ie, they can't keep their story straight). Not too long ago I had a buyer SNAD a note I sold because it had a pinhole in the center. My description said "the note has a pinhole in the right eye" (the right eye being right in the center of the note). Buyer won.
Some time ago, a buyer contacted me about returning a coin. I asked if there was a problem with it and he said no, he just decided he didn't want it so I said send it back. The next day, he filed a SNAD claim. I asked him why and he said because he didn't want to pay the return shipping. I contacted eBay's "customer service" and asked them to take a look at the case (all messages went through their system). They told me the buyer was wrong for filing a SNAD claim but I still had to pay the return postage. Because reasons, I guess.
From what I see most items on eBay are priced for the end user. Maybe bump up the original listing prices to avoid this sort of three party dealing? I know it’s part of the nature of coins to get traded around, but I would find this situation annoying myself.
Your last sentence is why my title says back and forth banter!
@spacehayduke said:
This is part of selling and ebay makes it (too) easy for returns. When on the occasion I sell on the BST, I can sometimes have inquiries from dealers who want to flip, or crack for upgrade (although they don't tell me that they are gonna try this and profit more this way). Most of these dealers here are easy to work with on these types of issues, and sometimes it works out. On ebay, it is harder to know who you are dealiung with many times (collector, dealer, etc.), so more risk in that regard. Still from what I hear (I haven't sold on ebay since 2011), most of the ebay deals work out. This is just one of those unusual ones. Good thread to discuss this.
I am writing this because you have told me you are trying to resell the coin. I have been a dealer for over 25 years and buying on ebay for over 20 years. I have bought probably 2-3 million dollars worth of coins on ebay. I can count the amount of coins I've returned on less than 2 hands. Sure, I may loose a little on some but 9 times out of 10 it was on me. I have learned over the years how to judge pictures and know when to take a gamble due to people who do not know how to take pictures, etc. etc.. My pictures are probably in the top 5% on ebay as far as accuracy. The coin being darker than you thought probably has to do with the differences in the settings between our monitors. If you have the brightness on your monitor turned up high, the coin will appear lighter than it is. I learned a long time ago most people, including myself turn down the brightness on their monitors because of the detrimental effect on your eyes. On my monitor the pictures of the coin are spot on.
Ebay is not an approval service for dealers and most play by those rules. This is why so many dealers, including myself gave up the top rated seller discount because of the abuse of free returns. I really don't get many returns but it is a principal as it is always folks trying to sell a coin for a profit and return it when they can't sell it. There is a growing comradery of ebay coin dealers that share their experiences with buyers. The only weapon dealers have is to block bidders, which we do.
Just thought I would offer this "food for thought".
Best Regards,
There is no chance you wrote that response to the buyer. Come on, there is not a single exclamation point to be found!
What do you guys find is the allowable time frame for returns? Are most returns within a couple days, a week or longer?
How long will eBay allow a return? Using the Morgan dollar example in this thread, with the drop of spot price upon arrival and the immediate return of the coins, the time frame of the return is understandable (under the discussion of "time" to be specific, not discussing the right or wrong of the tactic). But what if the drop in spot was a couple weeks after arrival and the buyer wanted to return then? Or even a month or two later? How long before they say it's too late to force a return?
The price change of spot is not a big thing on 10 Morgans but what if we are talking about $1,000 face where numbers become more substantial in writing off the "cost of doing business"?
@opportunity said:
Cost of doing business, my man. You should eat the fees.
I agree totally. I generally stay away from sellers that don't offer returns unless they have large, extremely clear pictures. I know I can file a SNAD, but I prefer to just stay away from that hassle.
When one returns something to WalMart, does Walmart deduct fees for the stocker, sales person, and cashier, etc? No. It's just the cost of doing business.
That sounds like a poor analogy. Walmart doesn’t conduct auctions. And their terms of sale don’t typically exclude returns or include a restocking fee.
I'd go beyond that with a point I often make when trying to explain to eBay how their policies don't work with coin sales. Walmart has lots of everything they sell, and excluding when people ruin items and return them anyway (Walmart's choice to take them back, or perhaps they cover defective items, which is separate than "I didn't like it"), they can just put something back on the shelf. Most coins are unique, even when all else is equal. Yes, a white MS64 common-date Morgan is pretty similar to another one, but a lot of coins are unique enough that buyers will note what's being relisted, and the value may change as a result of their assumption there is a problem. Beyond that, because Walmart sells tons of stuff at high margin, they can model return patterns, easily build the return costs into their pricing structure, and as they do so, use the return privilege as a way to entice people to spend more, which, in the end, nets them more profit.
Coins are often low margin, and people aren't buying lots of extra coins that they might just keep just because of a return option. In short, they're completely different business models. Notice that the policies on eBay, which to an extent are what you find with Walmart, have very little overlap with most dealers in the sense of free returns and long return windows? Yes, I get that it's eBay sandbox and we have to play by their rules to participate, but at the same time, I think the big problem is that no matter what you do as a seller, they've built a system where the buyer is always right, no matter how wrong they are. And let's be honest, the buyer is not always right.
@Batman23 said:
What do you guys find is the allowable time frame for returns? Are most returns within a couple days, a week or longer?
How long will eBay allow a return? Using the Morgan dollar example in this thread, with the drop of spot price upon arrival and the immediate return of the coins, the time frame of the return is understandable (under the discussion of "time" to be specific, not discussing the right or wrong of the tactic). But what if the drop in spot was a couple weeks after arrival and the buyer wanted to return then? Or even a month or two later? How long before they say it's too late to force a return?
The price change of spot is not a big thing on 10 Morgans but what if we are talking about $1,000 face where numbers become more substantial in writing off the "cost of doing business"?
The seller's options for coins on eBay are either no returns, or a choice of 14, 30, or 60 day returns.
Most items where the majority of the value is bullion have a no return policy, in my experience. Certainly they do when I'm selling them.
NEVERMIND: I now see you were talking about "forced" returns...
@Batman23 said:
What do you guys find is the allowable time frame for returns? Are most returns within a couple days, a week or longer?
How long will eBay allow a return? Using the Morgan dollar example in this thread, with the drop of spot price upon arrival and the immediate return of the coins, the time frame of the return is understandable (under the discussion of "time" to be specific, not discussing the right or wrong of the tactic). But what if the drop in spot was a couple weeks after arrival and the buyer wanted to return then? Or even a month or two later? How long before they say it's too late to force a return?
The price change of spot is not a big thing on 10 Morgans but what if we are talking about $1,000 face where numbers become more substantial in writing off the "cost of doing business"?
eBay isn't your problem. PayPal or your credit card company will often allow 180 days for a chargeback/return.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
@amwldcoin said:
Care to point them out...I felt a point needed to be made! I figure it's going to be returned regardless!
@MFeld said:
There were a number of unnecessary jabs contained in your lengthy message. And my guess is that they didn’t help your case.
I also can not see these jabs. If you are saying that @amwldcoin 's words had certain connotations, I don't see it.
Edit to add: I also think that more people should not be embarrassed or unwilling to offer helpful tips like this. You never know what someone doesn't know and if done politely you might be doing them a favor.
Edit to change a word
Years ago my father who was in his 70's decided to get an eBay account so he could buy an item he couldn't find anywhere else. He received the package and on the eBay shipping label the seller wrote, "Please send positive feedback" as many sellers do. My dad proceeded to hand write on the shipping label, "I give you positive feedback" and tells my mom to please snail mail the paper back to the seller. The seller mailed him back the positive feedback letter saying thank you with a note on how to leave feedback in eBay. My dad shared this with his kids and grandkids at Christmas that year showing everyone the shipping label with all the writing on it. It was hilarious but also very helpful for my dad. Your post made me think of this.
@opportunity said:
Cost of doing business, my man. You should eat the fees.
I agree totally. I generally stay away from sellers that don't offer returns unless they have large, extremely clear pictures. I know I can file a SNAD, but I prefer to just stay away from that hassle.
When one returns something to WalMart, does Walmart deduct fees for the stocker, sales person, and cashier, etc? No. It's just the cost of doing business.
That sounds like a poor analogy. Walmart doesn’t conduct auctions. And their terms of sale don’t typically exclude returns or include a restocking fee.
I'd go beyond that with a point I often make when trying to explain to eBay how their policies don't work with coin sales. Walmart has lots of everything they sell, and excluding when people ruin items and return them anyway (Walmart's choice to take them back, or perhaps they cover defective items, which is separate than "I didn't like it"), they can just put something back on the shelf. Most coins are unique, even when all else is equal. Yes, a white MS64 common-date Morgan is pretty similar to another one, but a lot of coins are unique enough that buyers will note what's being relisted, and the value may change as a result of their assumption there is a problem. Beyond that, because Walmart sells tons of stuff at high margin, they can model return patterns, easily build the return costs into their pricing structure, and as they do so, use the return privilege as a way to entice people to spend more, which, in the end, nets them more profit.
Coins are often low margin, and people aren't buying lots of extra coins that they might just keep just because of a return option. In short, they're completely different business models. Notice that the policies on eBay, which to an extent are what you find with Walmart, have very little overlap with most dealers in the sense of free returns and long return windows? Yes, I get that it's eBay sandbox and we have to play by their rules to participate, but at the same time, I think the big problem is that no matter what you do as a seller, they've built a system where the buyer is always right, no matter how wrong they are. And let's be honest, the buyer is not always right.
But this really puts the burden on eBay for a decision that is really the sellers'. eBay didn't force the seller into a low margin business.
eBay is trying to be an Amazon or Walmart type online marketplace and so their policies are built around a more traditional retail model.
And it's not just returns that are a problem. And it's not just eBay. PayPal/CC charge incremental fees. eBay charges incremental fees. Incremental fees are a big problem for low margin businesses because they are low margin. Most coins have bid/ask spreads of 10-15%. How do you make money on a 10% margin when your incremental costs are 10%? It ain't easy, kids.
Forget eBay. Go to your local B&M and try to buy bullion with a credit card. Most won't let you. Why? Bullion runs on a 3-4% margin ($50 to $75 per ounce of gold) and credit cards charge 2-5% on the transaction. The math doesn't work.
If that means that coins don't belong on eBay, so be it.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
@amwldcoin said:
Care to point them out...I felt a point needed to be made! I figure it's going to be returned regardless!
@MFeld said:
There were a number of unnecessary jabs contained in your lengthy message. And my guess is that they didn’t help your case.
I also can not see these jabs. If you are saying that @amwldcoin 's words had certain connotations, I don't see it.
Edit to add: I also think that more people should not be embarrassed or unwilling to offer helpful tips like this. You never know what someone doesn't know and if done politely you might be doing them a favor.
Edit to change a word
Years ago my father who was in his 70's decided to get an eBay account so he could buy an item he couldn't find anywhere else. He received the package and on the eBay shipping label the seller wrote, "Please send positive feedback" as many sellers do. My dad proceeded to hand write on the shipping label, "I give you positive feedback" and tells my mom to please snail mail the paper back to the seller. The seller mailed him back the positive feedback letter saying thank you with a note on how to leave feedback in eBay. My dad shared this with his kids and grandkids at Christmas that year showing everyone the shipping label with all the writing on it. It was hilarious but also very helpful for my dad. Your post made me think of this.
This is what I'm talking about. Good stuff! Thanks for sharing!
@opportunity said:
Cost of doing business, my man. You should eat the fees.
I agree totally. I generally stay away from sellers that don't offer returns unless they have large, extremely clear pictures. I know I can file a SNAD, but I prefer to just stay away from that hassle.
When one returns something to WalMart, does Walmart deduct fees for the stocker, sales person, and cashier, etc? No. It's just the cost of doing business.
That sounds like a poor analogy. Walmart doesn’t conduct auctions. And their terms of sale don’t typically exclude returns or include a restocking fee.
I'd go beyond that with a point I often make when trying to explain to eBay how their policies don't work with coin sales. Walmart has lots of everything they sell, and excluding when people ruin items and return them anyway (Walmart's choice to take them back, or perhaps they cover defective items, which is separate than "I didn't like it"), they can just put something back on the shelf. Most coins are unique, even when all else is equal. Yes, a white MS64 common-date Morgan is pretty similar to another one, but a lot of coins are unique enough that buyers will note what's being relisted, and the value may change as a result of their assumption there is a problem. Beyond that, because Walmart sells tons of stuff at high margin, they can model return patterns, easily build the return costs into their pricing structure, and as they do so, use the return privilege as a way to entice people to spend more, which, in the end, nets them more profit.
Coins are often low margin, and people aren't buying lots of extra coins that they might just keep just because of a return option. In short, they're completely different business models. Notice that the policies on eBay, which to an extent are what you find with Walmart, have very little overlap with most dealers in the sense of free returns and long return windows? Yes, I get that it's eBay sandbox and we have to play by their rules to participate, but at the same time, I think the big problem is that no matter what you do as a seller, they've built a system where the buyer is always right, no matter how wrong they are. And let's be honest, the buyer is not always right.
But this really puts the burden on eBay for a decision that is really the sellers'. eBay didn't force the seller into a low margin business.
eBay is trying to be an Amazon or Walmart type online marketplace and so their policies are built around a more traditional retail model.
And it's not just returns that are a problem. And it's not just eBay. PayPal/CC charge incremental fees. eBay charges incremental fees. Incremental fees are a big problem for low margin businesses because they are low margin. Most coins have bid/ask spreads of 10-15%. How do you make money on a 10% margin when your incremental costs are 10%? It ain't easy, kids.
Forget eBay. Go to your local B&M and try to buy bullion with a credit card. Most won't let you. Why? Bullion runs on a 3-4% margin ($50 to $75 per ounce of gold) and credit cards charge 2-5% on the transaction. The math doesn't work.
If that means that coins don't belong on eBay, so be it.
Well yes and no. All eBay has to do is have different terms for different categories of items. They already have different policies for bullion than other coins, so they can do it, emphasis on can. There are categories that are obviously competing with Amazon and Walmart and Target. There are categories that obviously aren’t. So this isn’t a hard problem to solve, it’s just an issue of whether or not eBay is willing to solve it.
@opportunity said:
Cost of doing business, my man. You should eat the fees.
I agree totally. I generally stay away from sellers that don't offer returns unless they have large, extremely clear pictures. I know I can file a SNAD, but I prefer to just stay away from that hassle.
When one returns something to WalMart, does Walmart deduct fees for the stocker, sales person, and cashier, etc? No. It's just the cost of doing business.
That sounds like a poor analogy. Walmart doesn’t conduct auctions. And their terms of sale don’t typically exclude returns or include a restocking fee.
I'd go beyond that with a point I often make when trying to explain to eBay how their policies don't work with coin sales. Walmart has lots of everything they sell, and excluding when people ruin items and return them anyway (Walmart's choice to take them back, or perhaps they cover defective items, which is separate than "I didn't like it"), they can just put something back on the shelf. Most coins are unique, even when all else is equal. Yes, a white MS64 common-date Morgan is pretty similar to another one, but a lot of coins are unique enough that buyers will note what's being relisted, and the value may change as a result of their assumption there is a problem. Beyond that, because Walmart sells tons of stuff at high margin, they can model return patterns, easily build the return costs into their pricing structure, and as they do so, use the return privilege as a way to entice people to spend more, which, in the end, nets them more profit.
Coins are often low margin, and people aren't buying lots of extra coins that they might just keep just because of a return option. In short, they're completely different business models. Notice that the policies on eBay, which to an extent are what you find with Walmart, have very little overlap with most dealers in the sense of free returns and long return windows? Yes, I get that it's eBay sandbox and we have to play by their rules to participate, but at the same time, I think the big problem is that no matter what you do as a seller, they've built a system where the buyer is always right, no matter how wrong they are. And let's be honest, the buyer is not always right.
But this really puts the burden on eBay for a decision that is really the sellers'. eBay didn't force the seller into a low margin business.
eBay is trying to be an Amazon or Walmart type online marketplace and so their policies are built around a more traditional retail model.
And it's not just returns that are a problem. And it's not just eBay. PayPal/CC charge incremental fees. eBay charges incremental fees. Incremental fees are a big problem for low margin businesses because they are low margin. Most coins have bid/ask spreads of 10-15%. How do you make money on a 10% margin when your incremental costs are 10%? It ain't easy, kids.
Forget eBay. Go to your local B&M and try to buy bullion with a credit card. Most won't let you. Why? Bullion runs on a 3-4% margin ($50 to $75 per ounce of gold) and credit cards charge 2-5% on the transaction. The math doesn't work.
If that means that coins don't belong on eBay, so be it.
Well yes and no. All eBay has to do is have different terms for different categories of items. They already have different policies for bullion than other coins, so they can do it, emphasis on can. There are categories that are obviously competing with Amazon and Walmart and Target. There are categories that obviously aren’t. So this isn’t a hard problem to solve, it’s just an issue of whether or not eBay is willing to solve it.
They already do a little of that. Bullion, for example, is treated differently than other categories as, I believe, are cars and real estate.
It's also worth noting that most retailers DO NOT PUT ANYTHING BACK ON THE SHELF. Returns are lumped together and sold at a discount on a secondary market.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
@Batman23 said:
What do you guys find is the allowable time frame for returns? Are most returns within a couple days, a week or longer?
How long will eBay allow a return? Using the Morgan dollar example in this thread, with the drop of spot price upon arrival and the immediate return of the coins, the time frame of the return is understandable (under the discussion of "time" to be specific, not discussing the right or wrong of the tactic). But what if the drop in spot was a couple weeks after arrival and the buyer wanted to return then? Or even a month or two later? How long before they say it's too late to force a return?
The price change of spot is not a big thing on 10 Morgans but what if we are talking about $1,000 face where numbers become more substantial in writing off the "cost of doing business"?
eBay isn't your problem. PayPal or your credit card company will often allow 180 days for a chargeback/return.
180 days... that could really turn out bad for a small guy selling a big item who's just trying to cover bills. 5 months later he has to refund money he doesn't have to receive bullion that is no longer worth the same value. All just hypotheticals but that is a long return window.
Why would an eBay seller not block a dealer who he knows will buy his coins, shop them around, and then will return the ones he can't sell for a quick profit for a refund?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@PerryHall said:
Why would an eBay seller not block a dealer who he knows will buy his coins, shop them around, and then will return the ones he can't sell for a quick profit for a refund?
Why would you think the Ebay seller might not do so?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If the item is a " buy it now " listing, I can see why many a savvy dealer would treat eBay sellers to a healthy dose of " approval services" , as they obviously do, and have ( I know from experience). And yes, those buyers are often dealers reselling products. So the customer isn't "happy" and wishes to return it..., but why should an eBay seller be responsible for the down line customers ? However, in "auction" formats , I think it's an egregious abuse of sellers, to use baseless claims for returning what was bid, and won fairly and squarely.
There are a few prominent members on Instagram I could see doing this. One in particular...
There are snakes in all facets of life. People who think the world revolves around them and everyone owes them something.
People with no decency or accountability.
@PerryHall said:
Why would an eBay seller not block a dealer who he knows will buy his coins, shop them around, and then will return the ones he can't sell for a quick profit for a refund?
Why would you think the Ebay seller might not do so?
I know that many eBay sellers would block these flippers but I want to know why those few that don't block these flippers would not block them. It was mostly a rhetorical question.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@Batman23 said:
What do you guys find is the allowable time frame for returns? Are most returns within a couple days, a week or longer?
How long will eBay allow a return? Using the Morgan dollar example in this thread, with the drop of spot price upon arrival and the immediate return of the coins, the time frame of the return is understandable (under the discussion of "time" to be specific, not discussing the right or wrong of the tactic). But what if the drop in spot was a couple weeks after arrival and the buyer wanted to return then? Or even a month or two later? How long before they say it's too late to force a return?
The price change of spot is not a big thing on 10 Morgans but what if we are talking about $1,000 face where numbers become more substantial in writing off the "cost of doing business"?
eBay isn't your problem. PayPal or your credit card company will often allow 180 days for a chargeback/return.
180 days... that could really turn out bad for a small guy selling a big item who's just trying to cover bills. 5 months later he has to refund money he doesn't have to receive bullion that is no longer worth the same value. All just hypotheticals but that is a long return window.
Friend of mine got a chargeback on day 179. They clearly waited until the last minute on purpose.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
@PerryHall said:
Why would an eBay seller not block a dealer who he knows will buy his coins, shop them around, and then will return the ones he can't sell for a quick profit for a refund?
Why would you think the Ebay seller might not do so?
I know that many eBay sellers would block these flippers but I want to know why those few that don't block these flippers would not block them. It was mostly a rhetorical question.
I would. I think most people would. But there really aren't that many of them, in my experience.
I've sold 75,000 eBay items over 23 years. I average about 5 returns per year. So, maybe 100 items out of 75,000 sold. And I would estimate that 75% of those items were $10 and under. I've never had a $1000+ item returned and rarely a $100+ item returned.
It's just not that big a problem.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
@TwoSides2aCoin said:
If the item is a " buy it now " listing, I can see why many a savvy dealer would treat eBay sellers to a healthy dose of " approval services" , as they obviously do, and have ( I know from experience). And yes, those buyers are often dealers reselling products. So the customer isn't "happy" and wishes to return it..., but why should an eBay seller be responsible for the down line customers ? However, in "auction" formats , I think it's an egregious abuse of sellers, to use baseless claims for returning what was bid, and won fairly and squarely.
Actually, I think it is more common with BIN for people to try and sell the item without actually buying it. If you steal the photos and list the coin yourself with a mark-up, you can essentially become a fulfillment service which has zero risk and no return aggravation.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
I am writing this because you have told me you are trying to resell the coin. I have been a dealer for over 25 years and buying on ebay for over 20 years. I have bought probably 2-3 million dollars worth of coins on ebay. I can count the amount of coins I've returned on less than 2 hands. Sure, I may loose a little on some but 9 times out of 10 it was on me. I have learned over the years how to judge pictures and know when to take a gamble due to people who do not know how to take pictures, etc. etc.. My pictures are probably in the top 5% on ebay as far as accuracy. The coin being darker than you thought probably has to do with the differences in the settings between our monitors. If you have the brightness on your monitor turned up high, the coin will appear lighter than it is. I learned a long time ago most people, including myself turn down the brightness on their monitors because of the detrimental effect on your eyes. On my monitor the pictures of the coin are spot on.
Ebay is not an approval service for dealers and most play by those rules. This is why so many dealers, including myself gave up the top rated seller discount because of the abuse of free returns. I really don't get many returns but it is a principal as it is always folks trying to sell a coin for a profit and return it when they can't sell it. There is a growing comradery of ebay coin dealers that share their experiences with buyers. The only weapon dealers have is to block bidders, which we do.
Just thought I would offer this "food for thought".
Best Regards,
There is no chance you wrote that response to the buyer. Come on, there is not a single exclamation point to be found!
Edited to add !
When I was first selling on ebay unreasonable buyers upset me; once I said something like "I'm not a running a charity!" Not a good line to win an argument there. The Silent Cal approach is best, say as little as possible but act prudently.
100% positive transactions with SurfinxHI, bigole, 1madman, collectorcoins, proofmorgan, Luke Marshall, silver pop, golden egg, point five zero,coin22lover, alohagary, blaircountycoin,joebb21
@amwldcoin said:
He just informed me his customer bought the coin. No bridges burned whatsoever!
I don't get it. Seems like you either have a philosophical issue with a dealer buying one of your coins "on consignment", or you don't. What if he returns the next one? (This assumes the dealer will pay the costs of a return.)
@amwldcoin said:
He just informed me his customer bought the coin. No bridges burned whatsoever!
I don't get it. Seems like you either have a philosophical issue with a dealer buying one of your coins "on consignment", or you don't. What if he returns the next one? (This assumes the dealer will pay the costs of a return.)
@amwldcoin said:
He just informed me his customer bought the coin. No bridges burned whatsoever!
I don't get it. Seems like you either have a philosophical issue with a dealer buying one of your coins "on consignment", or you don't. What if he returns the next one? (This assumes the dealer will pay the costs of a return.)
OK, so I'm still not sure why you're now OK with the situation just because he happened to sell this particular coin. Was there an understanding that he basically doesn't have return privileges on future purchases from you?
@amwldcoin said:
He just informed me his customer bought the coin. No bridges burned whatsoever!
Wonder what return privilege, if any, the new buyer has with the seller? Could the new buyer ask for a return in a week then in turn your buyer wants his $ back? Or was feedback left by your buyer denoting a happy,completed transaction?
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
Don't know how to reply to this. I think he understands now and would contact me before he made another purchase under these circumstances. He also gave me a want list!
@amwldcoin said:
He just informed me his customer bought the coin. No bridges burned whatsoever!
I don't get it. Seems like you either have a philosophical issue with a dealer buying one of your coins "on consignment", or you don't. What if he returns the next one? (This assumes the dealer will pay the costs of a return.)
OK, so I'm still not sure why you're now OK with the situation just because he happened to sell this particular coin. Was there an understanding that he basically doesn't have return privileges on future purchases from you?
@amwldcoin said:
He just informed me his customer bought the coin. No bridges burned whatsoever!
Wonder what return privilege, if any, the new buyer has with the seller? Could the new buyer ask for a return in a week then in turn your buyer wants his $ back? Or was feedback left by your buyer denoting a happy,completed transaction?
@amwldcoin said:
He just informed me his customer bought the coin. No bridges burned whatsoever!
Wonder what return privilege, if any, the new buyer has with the seller? Could the new buyer ask for a return in a week then in turn your buyer wants his $ back? Or was feedback left by your buyer denoting a happy,completed transaction?
Great news. Person to person dealings. Best kind, if possible. Less BS.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
He seems like a screwball really bad buyer. Just block him and move on.
Because he’s supposedly a dealer doesn’t mean diddly to me.
His security problem with his mail is a red flag. What a terrible situation to find out after shipping to him.
At shows I have dealers come to my table try rip me all the time. “Do you have anything below bid?” Or my fav rip off line from them “I buy below bid to sell to other dealers.” So what I told him lol. Go find one. I just treat the rip off folks like trash tire kickers they are.
While I don’t charge a restock charge, I don’t offer free returns. Their buyers remorse is not something I will pay for. I don’t do the biz for free. Returns very infrequent for me.
At some point you just have to shake off the bad, move on, and perhaps put that contingency in the markup equation.
@amwldcoin said:
He just informed me his customer bought the coin. No bridges burned whatsoever!
Wonder what return privilege, if any, the new buyer has with the seller? Could the new buyer ask for a return in a week then in turn your buyer wants his $ back? Or was feedback left by your buyer denoting a happy,completed transaction?
Great news. Person to person dealings. Best kind, if possible. Less BS.
Yeah, but a 500 pound gorilla needs bananas, and nuts.
That's where we come in.
I can't believe you finally decided not to accept return. eBay really drive honest seller away.
I had no problem accepting the return, and stated as much. My only problem was that eBay policies made me pay the two-way shipping and PayPal fee when the return reason was CLEARLY bogus as a SNAD claim. I'll take returns no problem, but I expect buyers to be honest and upstanding enough to make returns within the policy that I have put forth. I accepted this return as it was because I had no other choice, but I'll use it as an example for how eBay's policies greatly favor buyers. Me dishonest? I guess you don't know me.
I can't believe you finally decided not to accept return. eBay really drive honest seller away.
I had no problem accepting the return, and stated as much. My only problem was that eBay policies made me pay the two-way shipping and PayPal fee when the return reason was CLEARLY bogus as a SNAD claim. I'll take returns no problem, but I expect buyers to be honest and upstanding enough to make returns within the policy that I have put forth. I accepted this return as it was because I had no other choice, but I'll use it as an example for how eBay's policies greatly favor buyers. Me dishonest? I guess you don't know me.
No, I know you are a good and honest seller. I bought from you couple times. What I trying to say is that eBay drive honest and good seller like you away.
Comments
He was a messy guy to deal with but a certain percent of buyers will be.
I would take the pain and move on with no response.
It's an inexact analogy, certainly.
You also can't really use an auction company for comparison. If you conduct business through eBay, you don't have exclusive right to dictate your terms and conditions.
If you accept credit cards or any 3rd party payment processor, you also don't have exclusive right to dictate terms and conditions.
I don't know about Heritage specifically, but I assume that if a client filed a chargeback, the CC company could compel a return, could they not? Regardless of Heritage's terms and conditions.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Well, Here's my analogy...good drivers know the unwritten rules of the road, just as a dealer should and from what you write you seem to. I guess he's a school teacher with an NGC and CAC account!
LOL.
Fair enough.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
I totally understand the reasoning of the op, and if the buyer is just a dealer who is looking to resell, probably the price paid was kind of high to start with. Returns happen, and you have to live with that. However if a coin is certified and properly graded there is not a lot of justification unless the images were far off.
This is part of selling and ebay makes it (too) easy for returns. When on the occasion I sell on the BST, I can sometimes have inquiries from dealers who want to flip, or crack for upgrade (although they don't tell me that they are gonna try this and profit more this way). Most of these dealers here are easy to work with on these types of issues, and sometimes it works out. On ebay, it is harder to know who you are dealiung with many times (collector, dealer, etc.), so more risk in that regard. Still from what I hear (I haven't sold on ebay since 2011), most of the ebay deals work out. This is just one of those unusual ones. Good thread to discuss this.
Best, SH
Unfortunately ebay and paypal promote tire kicking/window shopping buyers at the monetary expense of the seller. You can try to limit returns by not accepting returns or requiring buyer pay return shipping, but that only encourages them to claim "not as described," which can affect your seller status with ebay. Such buyers don't care that their seller has to eat the expense.
Only recourse is to block him and PM me his ebay ID so I can block him. If enough forum members in all of the coin forums would share bad buyer info, eventually bad buyers will be limited where they can buy on ebay.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
There is no chance you wrote that response to the buyer. Come on, there is not a single exclamation point to be found!
Edited to add !
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Some time ago, a buyer contacted me about returning a coin. I asked if there was a problem with it and he said no, he just decided he didn't want it so I said send it back. The next day, he filed a SNAD claim. I asked him why and he said because he didn't want to pay the return shipping. I contacted eBay's "customer service" and asked them to take a look at the case (all messages went through their system). They told me the buyer was wrong for filing a SNAD claim but I still had to pay the return postage. Because reasons, I guess.
From what I see most items on eBay are priced for the end user. Maybe bump up the original listing prices to avoid this sort of three party dealing? I know it’s part of the nature of coins to get traded around, but I would find this situation annoying myself.
Your last sentence is why my title says back and forth banter!
Youse guys taught me about exclamation points
! > @astrorat said:
What do you guys find is the allowable time frame for returns? Are most returns within a couple days, a week or longer?
How long will eBay allow a return? Using the Morgan dollar example in this thread, with the drop of spot price upon arrival and the immediate return of the coins, the time frame of the return is understandable (under the discussion of "time" to be specific, not discussing the right or wrong of the tactic). But what if the drop in spot was a couple weeks after arrival and the buyer wanted to return then? Or even a month or two later? How long before they say it's too late to force a return?
The price change of spot is not a big thing on 10 Morgans but what if we are talking about $1,000 face where numbers become more substantial in writing off the "cost of doing business"?
I'd go beyond that with a point I often make when trying to explain to eBay how their policies don't work with coin sales. Walmart has lots of everything they sell, and excluding when people ruin items and return them anyway (Walmart's choice to take them back, or perhaps they cover defective items, which is separate than "I didn't like it"), they can just put something back on the shelf. Most coins are unique, even when all else is equal. Yes, a white MS64 common-date Morgan is pretty similar to another one, but a lot of coins are unique enough that buyers will note what's being relisted, and the value may change as a result of their assumption there is a problem. Beyond that, because Walmart sells tons of stuff at high margin, they can model return patterns, easily build the return costs into their pricing structure, and as they do so, use the return privilege as a way to entice people to spend more, which, in the end, nets them more profit.
Coins are often low margin, and people aren't buying lots of extra coins that they might just keep just because of a return option. In short, they're completely different business models. Notice that the policies on eBay, which to an extent are what you find with Walmart, have very little overlap with most dealers in the sense of free returns and long return windows? Yes, I get that it's eBay sandbox and we have to play by their rules to participate, but at the same time, I think the big problem is that no matter what you do as a seller, they've built a system where the buyer is always right, no matter how wrong they are. And let's be honest, the buyer is not always right.
The seller's options for coins on eBay are either no returns, or a choice of 14, 30, or 60 day returns.
Most items where the majority of the value is bullion have a no return policy, in my experience. Certainly they do when I'm selling them.
NEVERMIND: I now see you were talking about "forced" returns...
eBay isn't your problem. PayPal or your credit card company will often allow 180 days for a chargeback/return.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Years ago my father who was in his 70's decided to get an eBay account so he could buy an item he couldn't find anywhere else. He received the package and on the eBay shipping label the seller wrote, "Please send positive feedback" as many sellers do. My dad proceeded to hand write on the shipping label, "I give you positive feedback" and tells my mom to please snail mail the paper back to the seller. The seller mailed him back the positive feedback letter saying thank you with a note on how to leave feedback in eBay. My dad shared this with his kids and grandkids at Christmas that year showing everyone the shipping label with all the writing on it. It was hilarious but also very helpful for my dad. Your post made me think of this.
But this really puts the burden on eBay for a decision that is really the sellers'. eBay didn't force the seller into a low margin business.
eBay is trying to be an Amazon or Walmart type online marketplace and so their policies are built around a more traditional retail model.
And it's not just returns that are a problem. And it's not just eBay. PayPal/CC charge incremental fees. eBay charges incremental fees. Incremental fees are a big problem for low margin businesses because they are low margin. Most coins have bid/ask spreads of 10-15%. How do you make money on a 10% margin when your incremental costs are 10%? It ain't easy, kids.
Forget eBay. Go to your local B&M and try to buy bullion with a credit card. Most won't let you. Why? Bullion runs on a 3-4% margin ($50 to $75 per ounce of gold) and credit cards charge 2-5% on the transaction. The math doesn't work.
If that means that coins don't belong on eBay, so be it.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
You did well and let the buyer know what to expect.
What's to bash but the (so called dealer) looking to make a buck at your expense.
Make sure you tell him to get a secure mailbox for his new business.
This is what I'm talking about. Good stuff! Thanks for sharing!
Well yes and no. All eBay has to do is have different terms for different categories of items. They already have different policies for bullion than other coins, so they can do it, emphasis on can. There are categories that are obviously competing with Amazon and Walmart and Target. There are categories that obviously aren’t. So this isn’t a hard problem to solve, it’s just an issue of whether or not eBay is willing to solve it.
They already do a little of that. Bullion, for example, is treated differently than other categories as, I believe, are cars and real estate.
It's also worth noting that most retailers DO NOT PUT ANYTHING BACK ON THE SHELF. Returns are lumped together and sold at a discount on a secondary market.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
180 days... that could really turn out bad for a small guy selling a big item who's just trying to cover bills. 5 months later he has to refund money he doesn't have to receive bullion that is no longer worth the same value. All just hypotheticals but that is a long return window.
Why would an eBay seller not block a dealer who he knows will buy his coins, shop them around, and then will return the ones he can't sell for a quick profit for a refund?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Why would you think the Ebay seller might not do so?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If the item is a " buy it now " listing, I can see why many a savvy dealer would treat eBay sellers to a healthy dose of " approval services" , as they obviously do, and have ( I know from experience). And yes, those buyers are often dealers reselling products. So the customer isn't "happy" and wishes to return it..., but why should an eBay seller be responsible for the down line customers ? However, in "auction" formats , I think it's an egregious abuse of sellers, to use baseless claims for returning what was bid, and won fairly and squarely.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
There are a few prominent members on Instagram I could see doing this. One in particular...
There are snakes in all facets of life. People who think the world revolves around them and everyone owes them something.
People with no decency or accountability.
I know that many eBay sellers would block these flippers but I want to know why those few that don't block these flippers would not block them. It was mostly a rhetorical question.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Friend of mine got a chargeback on day 179. They clearly waited until the last minute on purpose.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
I would. I think most people would. But there really aren't that many of them, in my experience.
I've sold 75,000 eBay items over 23 years. I average about 5 returns per year. So, maybe 100 items out of 75,000 sold. And I would estimate that 75% of those items were $10 and under. I've never had a $1000+ item returned and rarely a $100+ item returned.
It's just not that big a problem.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Actually, I think it is more common with BIN for people to try and sell the item without actually buying it. If you steal the photos and list the coin yourself with a mark-up, you can essentially become a fulfillment service which has zero risk and no return aggravation.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
When I was first selling on ebay unreasonable buyers upset me; once I said something like "I'm not a running a charity!" Not a good line to win an argument there. The Silent Cal approach is best, say as little as possible but act prudently.
He just informed me his customer bought the coin. No bridges burned whatsoever!
Congrats AM
100% positive transactions with SurfinxHI, bigole, 1madman, collectorcoins, proofmorgan, Luke Marshall, silver pop, golden egg, point five zero,coin22lover, alohagary, blaircountycoin,joebb21
I don't get it. Seems like you either have a philosophical issue with a dealer buying one of your coins "on consignment", or you don't. What if he returns the next one? (This assumes the dealer will pay the costs of a return.)
He was going to pay the Paypal fees and cost of the return. I would have been out the 10 bucks it cost me to ship.
OK, so I'm still not sure why you're now OK with the situation just because he happened to sell this particular coin. Was there an understanding that he basically doesn't have return privileges on future purchases from you?
Wonder what return privilege, if any, the new buyer has with the seller? Could the new buyer ask for a return in a week then in turn your buyer wants his $ back? Or was feedback left by your buyer denoting a happy,completed transaction?
Don't know how to reply to this. I think he understands now and would contact me before he made another purchase under these circumstances. He also gave me a want list!
I would say zero as it was a person to person transaction. Glowing positive feedback received!
Great news. Person to person dealings. Best kind, if possible. Less BS.
He seems like a screwball really bad buyer. Just block him and move on.
Because he’s supposedly a dealer doesn’t mean diddly to me.
His security problem with his mail is a red flag. What a terrible situation to find out after shipping to him.
At shows I have dealers come to my table try rip me all the time. “Do you have anything below bid?” Or my fav rip off line from them “I buy below bid to sell to other dealers.” So what I told him lol. Go find one. I just treat the rip off folks like trash tire kickers they are.
While I don’t charge a restock charge, I don’t offer free returns. Their buyers remorse is not something I will pay for. I don’t do the biz for free. Returns very infrequent for me.
At some point you just have to shake off the bad, move on, and perhaps put that contingency in the markup equation.
Yeah, but a 500 pound gorilla needs bananas, and nuts.
That's where we come in.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
@airplanenut,
I can't believe you finally decided not to accept return. eBay really drive honest seller away.
I had no problem accepting the return, and stated as much. My only problem was that eBay policies made me pay the two-way shipping and PayPal fee when the return reason was CLEARLY bogus as a SNAD claim. I'll take returns no problem, but I expect buyers to be honest and upstanding enough to make returns within the policy that I have put forth. I accepted this return as it was because I had no other choice, but I'll use it as an example for how eBay's policies greatly favor buyers. Me dishonest? I guess you don't know me.
No, I know you are a good and honest seller. I bought from you couple times. What I trying to say is that eBay drive honest and good seller like you away.