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Overdate Buffalo Crack out and resubmit or let it be

VetterVetter Posts: 784 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited November 27, 2020 2:05PM in U.S. Coin Forum

I just received this 18/7 D Buffalo and I’m very torn on what to do. It’s in a PCGS F12 holder but in hand the coin looks so much better. Yes, RTY of liberty is touching the rim , but I’ve seen much higher grades with the same problem. Later die states all of liberty touches the rim even in high grades. The horn, although missing just the smallest amount looks somewhat rounded and not flat. There is even a little tail left on the hip. Price guide has it at F12 $2100, F15 $2600 and VF20 $3900 so even one grade higher would be worth it. What do you think, is it worth the shot?

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Comments

  • erwindocerwindoc Posts: 4,925 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks pretty strong for a 12! Is there a scratch in the hair though? Perhaps CAC instead as a gold sticker would make people go nuts for it when it is time to sell.

  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 10,048 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That's not a nearly complete horn. It's discoloration disguised that way. It has 2/3 horn-it's a Fine 12. I'd leave it alone.

  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks like a silent net grade to me.

  • ms70ms70 Posts: 13,946 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Personally I think it's at least one grade better.

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  • BuffaloIronTailBuffaloIronTail Posts: 7,400 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm on the fence. A lot of peripheral wear for a VF Buff.

    I'm thinking it might squeeze f-15.

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,637 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2020 3:30PM

    I'm no expert, but I'd say make your pitch to the person you want to sell it to and maybe they'll pay more than the grade on the slab. Let them roll the dice.

    Or, if you are just going to lose sleep, then send it in. I do see lots of scratches and scrapes that in hand presumably look better.

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,898 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'd say it is properly graded as a F12. The date itself is too worn to justify a higher grade.

    All glory is fleeting.
  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,613 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @koynekwest said:
    That's not a nearly complete horn. It's discoloration disguised that way. It has 2/3 horn-it's a Fine 12. I'd leave it alone.

    Even a 2/3 horn should F-15.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,613 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you ask me, you are asking the wrong question. The real question is will it drop to a VG grade or get a details grade. If the answer is no, you have very little to risk with a resubmission.

  • mannie graymannie gray Posts: 7,259 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It is nice for a 12 but I would leave it as is.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,613 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 28, 2020 5:35AM


    Fine-15 PCGS photograde

  • joeykoinsjoeykoins Posts: 14,787 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice coin. I'd risk it! However, only if you let PCGS know you don't want the coin to go any lower than the grade you have now. Good Luck in whatever you decide. :)

    "Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!

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  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks properly graded to me.....Of course, the magnified image shows 'everything', so that could be affecting my opinion....Cheers, RickO

  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,114 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 28, 2020 8:00AM

    I’m sticking by my original F15 assessment, from when you posted this as a gtg.
    That said, I would resubmit it for a review, and not crack it out.
    Not sure of the backstory on this one, but short of it being a cherry-pick or raw submission on your part the first time around, I’m guessing that previous owner(s) have likewise already tried for a higher grade.
    So don’t be too disappointed.

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  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,758 ✭✭✭✭✭

    maybe net graded for light cleaning

    are you keeping it or selling it?

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BuffaloIronTail said:
    I'm on the fence. A lot of peripheral wear for a VF Buff.

    I'm thinking it might squeeze f-15.

    Pete

    That's what I thought.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • winestevenwinesteven Posts: 4,004 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What’s the confusion? So that you don’t lose sleep, DON’T crack it out, but send it in either as a Regrade or Reconsideration. This way there’s NO risk of a lower grade. Cost is $35 or so, a small price to pay for a coin of this value. Regrade will give you a new cert number, Reconsideration will preserve the same cert number. Is your peace of mind worth $35?

    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

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  • CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,368 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 28, 2020 4:24PM

    I typically want to more back fluffy hair/wool on the Buffalo as it drifts towards VF and better rims.

    Not sure if it would CAC even as a 12 with that color.

    Leave it be and enjoy a killer coin and remember ownership adds a point to every coin’s grade. The trick is when the buyer over grades it

  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 10,048 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @koynekwest said:
    That's not a nearly complete horn. It's discoloration disguised that way. It has 2/3 horn-it's a Fine 12. I'd leave it alone.

    Even a 2/3 horn should F-15.

    I disagree. I believe it would take 3/4 of a horn for that grade. But maybe those would be VF under today's grading standards. I grade these coins using the older standards which was flawed but the habit is hard to break.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,613 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @koynekwest said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @koynekwest said:
    That's not a nearly complete horn. It's discoloration disguised that way. It has 2/3 horn-it's a Fine 12. I'd leave it alone.

    Even a 2/3 horn should F-15.

    I disagree. I believe it would take 3/4 of a horn for that grade. But maybe those would be VF under today's grading standards. I grade these coins using the older standards which was flawed but the habit is hard to break.

    I posted the PCGS photograde photos above. You'll see that the horn on their 1938-D reference coin is about the same as on the OP's coin.

    3/4 of a horn will get you VF these days. [I'm a purist. I hate it. I want a full horn. But it is what it is.]

    In fact, here's the reverse of the PCGS reference coin for VF20

    You can disagree if you want, but it is the PCGS standards that count, not yours or mine.

  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 10,048 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 28, 2020 8:39PM

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @koynekwest said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @koynekwest said:
    That's not a nearly complete horn. It's discoloration disguised that way. It has 2/3 horn-it's a Fine 12. I'd leave it alone.

    Even a 2/3 horn should F-15.

    I disagree. I believe it would take 3/4 of a horn for that grade. But maybe those would be VF under today's grading standards. I grade these coins using the older standards which was flawed but the habit is hard to break.

    I posted the PCGS photograde photos above. You'll see that the horn on their 1938-D reference coin is about the same as on the OP's coin.

    3/4 of a horn will get you VF these days. [I'm a purist. I hate it. I want a full horn. But it is what it is.]

    In fact, here's the reverse of the PCGS reference coin for VF20

    You can disagree if you want, but it is the PCGS standards that count, not yours or mine.

    There's more horn on the coin you show. As I said before that's a little streak of dirt that gives the illusion that there's more horn than there actually is. But you are correct about what counts is the opinion of PCGS. They have already made that determination.

  • InditonkaInditonka Posts: 433 ✭✭✭

    @winesteven said:
    What’s the confusion? So that you don’t lose sleep, DON’T crack it out, but send it in either as a Regrade or Reconsideration. This way there’s NO risk of a lower grade. Cost is $35 or so, a small price to pay for a coin of this value. Regrade will give you a new cert number, Reconsideration will preserve the same cert number. Is your peace of mind worth $35?

    Steve

    This is the route I'd take! Not worth the risk of a crackout!

  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 10,048 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 28, 2020 10:15PM

    Here is the PCGS photograde image for a Fine 12. The obverse of the OP's coin is worn to the bottom limit of a Fine 12 coin as well.


  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,613 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 29, 2020 1:38AM

    @koynekwest said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @koynekwest said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @koynekwest said:
    That's not a nearly complete horn. It's discoloration disguised that way. It has 2/3 horn-it's a Fine 12. I'd leave it alone.

    Even a 2/3 horn should F-15.

    I disagree. I believe it would take 3/4 of a horn for that grade. But maybe those would be VF under today's grading standards. I grade these coins using the older standards which was flawed but the habit is hard to break.

    I posted the PCGS photograde photos above. You'll see that the horn on their 1938-D reference coin is about the same as on the OP's coin.

    3/4 of a horn will get you VF these days. [I'm a purist. I hate it. I want a full horn. But it is what it is.]

    In fact, here's the reverse of the PCGS reference coin for VF20

    You can disagree if you want, but it is the PCGS standards that count, not yours or mine.

    There's more horn on the coin you show. As I said before that's a little streak of dirt that gives the illusion that there's more horn than there actually is. But you are correct about what counts is the opinion of PCGS. They have already made that determination.

    Yes, I don't think it's a VF20. As I said above, I do think it could be a F15 (go look at THAT picture). Since a F15 is $500 more than a F12, it is worth the $40 to try and upgrade the coin.

    Since there is virtually no doubt that it is a F12, there's little risk in resubmitting.

  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 10,048 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It was wrong to use the horn as a grading point in the first place (thanks, Brown and Dunn) since so many Buffs never had a full horn to begin with. Sadly, these standards were set in stone for many years.

  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 10,048 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Might be worth a try. You never know.

  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 5,955 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 29, 2020 6:27AM

    A nice fine. Not sharp enough to call VF. Opinion.

    Wouldn't be worth it to resubmit if it were my coin. Anyone who looks at it can see its nice. As a fine. Price guides are just that, guides. Dealer who might want to buy it would want to buy as a "nice fine." Nit-picking about grading numbers in well-circulated coins like this is not where dealer with savvy goes.

    I suppose resubmission could result in F15 assessment but bear in mind, the only thing TPG encapsulation really does for this coin is to guarantee its authenticity, no more, no less. Opinion.

    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein

  • VetterVetter Posts: 784 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Next question. What would a CAC sticker on the F12 be the same as getting it graded F15?

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  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,296 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @winesteven said:
    Is your peace of mind worth $35?

    You need to factor in the cost of insured shipping both ways unless you can include it in a group submission of several coins.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,613 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Vetter said:
    Next question. What would a CAC sticker on the F12 be the same as getting it graded F15?

    Possibly if it were a gold CAC. The green CAC just reinforces the F12

  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,700 ✭✭✭✭✭

    On the one hand resubmission might get you to squeeze out a fine-15. But in looking at just the horn there does seem to
    be enough detail on the horn since it is, say over 80 percent complete, but then looking at all the other features of the coin while ignoring the horn the level of details on both sides does not seem to me to support a fine-15 grade. Just look at the motto LIBERTY where it partially merges with the rim. Usually you get a Fine-12 when the LIBERTY does not merge with the rim. A real nice FINE-15 will really reach out and grab you where as fine-12 will not. I myself would grade it Fine-12.

    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"

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