The case of the missing Lissner MS65 - resurfaced CNG Jan 2022
TwoKopeiki
Posts: 9,740 ✭✭✭✭✭
Back in the olden days of 2014 when I was hyper-focused on completing Carlos IV and Ferdinand VII sets and ignoring CIII portraits altogether an interesting coin crossed the auction block at CNG. It was an NGC certified MS65 WINGS approved 1779 Mexico 8 Reales with a great strike and just a touch of toning on what otherwise seemed like perfect surfaces, not counting the adjustment lines running on top of the reverse. Whoever parted with this gem mentioned purchasing it from M Louis Teller a few short months before I was born in 1980.
Looking at strike characteristics of various certified 1779 examples recently I noticed that NGC population report no longer lists an MS65 for the year.
Perhaps it was crossed to PCGS, I thought... But no, the highest grade on this side of the street is a 63 and there have been 3 total certificates at that level with 2 still current: @Boosibri's coin , no image but old holder with certificate starting with 0 and one no longer valid but my records showing it as 24739638. That last one was either an attempt to upgrade an existing one or a downgrading to a 62PL once that designation became available, but i'm just speculating at this point.
I can only assume that the 1779 in question that used to reside in the MS65 NGC holder has been cracked out and is residing in someone's collection raw, with the label returned back to NGC in order to update the population reports.
I, for one, would love to see that collection 
Comments
Perhaps this coin represents an issue that concerns me when evaluating coins from the 17th and 18th century... are we looking at these too closely through a 21st century lens and failing to completely appreciate the technical limitations of the day? It looks like an incredible coin for the series and worthy of a 65.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Most likely thing to me is that the NGC census is just incorrect.
Most people who would crack out a top pop coin like this probably wouldn't care to send the cert back to manage the pops.
Latin American Collection
The plot thickens.... Or mystery solved?
More to come...
8 Reales Madness Collection
Probably explains the selling price in the Lissner sale
Latin American Collection
Is this an unsuccessful attempt at a restoration?
IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me
Mystery solved. Looks like the original description that was captured by SixBid had a misprint.
The updated CNG description from that sale:
CNG link
8 Reales Madness Collection
I do find it interesting that the NGC photo shows a spot on the top right Lion on the reverse
8 Reales Madness Collection
Move along now.
8 Reales Madness Collection
And it's back. Now free from it's plastic, but still referring to the original error in the description, calling the coin ex:NGC65
https://auctions.cngcoins.com/lots/view/4-4H4YT8/mexico-colonial-carlos-iii-king-of-spain-1759-1788-ar-8-reales-39mm-2694-g-12h-mexico-city-mint-dated-1779-mo-ff
8 Reales Madness Collection
That erroneous discription by CNG needs to be corrected as it is now even more misleading given the free range nature of this coin vs. the obvious error in the Lissner sale and the plastic to clarify it.
Latin American Collection
@Boosibri I emailed CNG yesterday, but haven't heard back.
8 Reales Madness Collection
I'd tend to agree with the first point on account of the second certainly being correct. Most collectors aren't members of either TPG, so would have no reason to keep the populations up to date. I include myself in that group because I've removed a fair number over the years.
I suspect the percentage of the population removed is a little subjective based on where in the world things are collected. Latin American has a large following on your side of the pond, but not here, so I would say less likely to be removed in the case of the Lissner coin.
Contrast that with for example Charles II halfpennies. When the combined NGC and PCGS pops for the type stood at 9 in MS63-65, I had 4 of the labels in my hand (including top pop at both TPGs) and the coins were nowhere to be seen. The combined population now is officially 12 in 63-65, but in reality less. 3 of the 4 had the wrong date on the label anyway, which further complicates things.
You guys are awesome so much knowledge it is a pleasure to be part of this community!!!
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No response from CNG yet.
8 Reales Madness Collection
☎️?
A nice reply from CNG. Thank you Bill!
Bill Dalzell @cngcoins.com
11:44 AM (6 minutes ago)
to me
Thank you for pointing this out to me. It would seem that it was erroneously described as MS 65. I was very involved with the Lissner sale and did my best to prevent something like this from happening. A shame this slipped through, and worse that it puzzled collectors for a few years!
In fact, to prevent this from happening, we've since started including the slab number on every encapsulated lot. The only reason I couldn't confirm this piece was because the ticket had been discarded by the collector.
I will update our listing to reflect the correct slab number and grade.
All the best,
Bill Dalzell
Note: It was corrected to MS 61 in the errata of the Lissner sale
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
Spanish Colonial Pillar Set
Thanks @JohnnyCache for following-up on this! Glad to hear we're at a resolution and the description has been updated!
8 Reales Madness Collection
Nicely handled CNG
Latin American Collection