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Coin or Medal - Does it matter for demand?

ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited November 10, 2020 6:08AM in U.S. Coin Forum

A little while back it was theorized that Continental Dollars are actually foreign medals and not US coins.

Does it matter for demand?

Stack's says the following:

That the Continental "dollar" was intended as a medal and not a coin, and that it was struck in London in 1783 instead of an unknown American location in 1776, changes very little in the scheme of things. The Libertas Americana medal was coined in Paris but is consistently rated as among the most desirable American numismatic collectibles; the Continental "dollar" should not forfeit a similar place in the hearts of American collectors. It remains scarce, attractive, historic and valuable. It's a piece that Paul Revere -- no man of letters, typically -- felt passionately enough about to write a missive to the Bishop of London. And it's a piece that all of us grew up looking at and wanting to own, just as every generation of American collector since 1823 has. Indeed, the inclusion of a high grade and attractive Continental "dollar," as here, will continue to help define the difference between an average and outstanding collection of early American types.

Comments

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,472 ✭✭✭✭✭

    IT would for a new issue. AT this point, the Continental dollars are what they are in the marketplace. Reclassifying them wouldn't change anything. IMHO

  • coinsarefuncoinsarefun Posts: 21,662 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would agree what is written above. I must say that Stacks sure did a nice write up, wonder who
    the author is on this one? Do we know who does most of the descriptions on auctions?

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2020 3:06AM

    To me, it does make a difference. They are still of interest, but have among other things moved from above, to below, Humbert Slugs. For example:

    Continental Currency:

    • they were not issued by the US government or colonies, or in America
    • they were not money
    • we don't know who issued them
    • they are collectible because they were historically in the Red Book, but what if they weren't?

    Humbert Slugs:

    • used for commerce
    • struck by Augustus Humbert who became a U.S. Treasury assayer

    I think of them more like the Scovill Manufacturing Fugio Cents (with less known history) and Lovett Confederate Cents (which still sell for amazing levels), in that I think a lot of the interest in the Continental Currency pieces come from the fact that people grew up with them in the Red Book.

    Of course, I love Scovill Fugio Cents and Lovett Confederate Cents, so I also still like theses as privately made medals, albeit with less known history.

    This has a PCGS Price Guide value of $175,000 and I'm curious to see where it will end up.

  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,592 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The Continental Dollar has its place in numismatics solidified by many decades of being viewed as an iconic and historical artifact. I don't see anything changing that.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2020 3:52AM

    @JBK said:
    The Continental Dollar has its place in numismatics solidified by many decades of being viewed as an iconic and historical artifact. I don't see anything changing that.

    It's certainly iconic because it uses the design from the paper currency, but it's a bit harder to see the historical aspect now. I think it's place in numismatics may be different for the next generation that grows up with the newer information.

    It still might be worth a lot of money (maybe even more given it's rarity and bifurcation), but as foreign exonumia, not US coinage which people assumed it was before.

    It reminds me of people discussing the New Haven Fugio Restrikes, as they were called by the Red Book, as Scovill Manufacturing Replicas. Certain people, myself one of them, have great affinity for the Scovill pieces, but certain others view them much differently.

    If demand for these does remain strong, it's a another good sign for exonumia.

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,880 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There was a thread some years back which discussed the Continental Dollar and questioned when and where it was actually issued. As current collectors who always remember wanting to own one, thinking it was a real coin, pass from the scene its appeal will slowly decline. They will continue to bring good money in the future but not as much as if they were actual coins.

    All glory is fleeting.
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinsarefun.... "Do we know who does most of the descriptions on auctions?" Stef, I believe they are written by some of the same people that write wine descriptions..... :D Cheers, RickO

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,257 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If it is a medal, why is it the size of a dollar coin and imprinted with the word "CURRENCY"? More likely a privately issued pattern coin produced as a business venture. Without contemporary documentation, we can only speculate as to the intent of the issuer.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2020 5:35AM

    @PerryHall said:
    If it is a medal, why is it the size of a dollar coin and imprinted with the word "CURRENCY"?

    One reason would be that they were copying it from the paper money.

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,257 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @PerryHall said:
    If it is a medal, why is it the size of a dollar coin and imprinted with the word "CURRENCY"?

    One reason would be that they were copying it from the paper money.

    Good point. Another reason to believe it was intended to be a coin.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭

    sometimes, and I think this is a good example, the "Legend" reaches a point that is too great to be diminished by the "Truth" about its origin. it may prove very difficult to purge the "Legend" no matter how much evidence supporting it is lacking. conversely, it will prove difficult to have the "Truth" accepted by large parts of the Hobby. when large sums of money are involved, people quite often choose to believe what they want to believe. these are certainly collectible in their own right, but to my thinking they are an expensive foreign souvenir and not a Mythical first United States Dollar Coin.

    for what I collect, they remind me of the 1853 Crystal Palace So-Called Dollar: erroneously listed as struck for the New York event, but clearly struck in Great Britain for the London structure. despite knowing this, it remains in the catalogue as HK-8 and HK-8a and is routinely listed at auction as representing the New York structure.

    Myths die hard. B)

  • TurtleCatTurtleCat Posts: 4,588 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Does coin or medal make a difference? For the continental dollar I’d say no. Whether it was from the red book or something else there are few known plus it was from around the time of the nation’s birth so there will be demand. Not that different from some of the Washington medals that were popular in the mid 19th century.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2020 6:10AM

    it's worth mentioning that the Jerry Buss - Larry Miller provenance is great from a sports perspective since they owned the Los Angeles Lakers and Utah Jazz respectively. I think they both need a coin collecting section on their Wikipedia pages. How many coin collectors have Wikipedia pages but no mention of their collecting accomplishments?

    Will the next owner also own a major professional sports franchise?

    Jerry Buss - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Buss

    Gerald Hatten Buss (January 27, 1933 – February 18, 2013) was an American businessman, investor, chemist, and philanthropist. He was the majority owner of the Los Angeles Lakers professional basketball team in the National Basketball Association (NBA), winning 10 league championships that were highlighted by the team's Showtime era during the 1980s. He is a member of the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame as a contributor. Buss owned other professional sports franchises in Southern California.

    Larry Miller - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_H._Miller

    Larry H. Miller (April 26, 1944 – February 20, 2009) was a Utah businessman who was known as the owner of the National Basketball Association (NBA)'s Utah Jazz and of the Salt Lake Bees, a Triple-A Minor League Baseball franchise. Miller and his companies also owned more than 60 automotive dealerships throughout the Western United States,[2] and a variety of other business ventures, including Prestige Financial Services, Jordan Commons (a restaurant and entertainment complex), Megaplex Theatres, KJZZ-TV, Miller Motorsports Park, the advertising agency Saxton Horne – named after Miller's wife's maiden name and his middle-name, and Vivint Smart Home Arena (formerly known as EnergySolutions Arena or the Delta Center), all of which are still owned by the family's Larry H. Miller Group of Companies (LHM Group). The Fanzz chain of sports apparel stores was also owned by LHM Group until its sale to Ames Watson Capital in 2018.[3]

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2020 7:44AM

    @PerryHall said:

    @Zoins said:

    @PerryHall said:
    If it is a medal, why is it the size of a dollar coin and imprinted with the word "CURRENCY"?

    One reason would be that they were copying it from the paper money.

    Good point. Another reason to believe it was intended to be a coin.

    A fantasy coin is a definite possibility.

    Finding some records could help establish it as meant for real coinage.

    As it is, it is a bit less than the Lovett Confederate Cent since that has a story from Robert Lovett, Jr. via John White Haseltine. The Lovett Confederate Cents have strong demand, so even with less of a story than those, the Continental Currency Dollars can still do well.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2020 6:07AM

    @keets said:
    sometimes, and I think this is a good example, the "Legend" reaches a point that is too great to be diminished by the "Truth" about its origin. it may prove very difficult to purge the "Legend" no matter how much evidence supporting it is lacking. conversely, it will prove difficult to have the "Truth" accepted by large parts of the Hobby. when large sums of money are involved, people quite often choose to believe what they want to believe. these are certainly collectible in their own right, but to my thinking they are an expensive foreign souvenir and not a Mythical first United States Dollar Coin.

    for what I collect, they remind me of the 1853 Crystal Palace So-Called Dollar: erroneously listed as struck for the New York event, but clearly struck in Great Britain for the London structure. despite knowing this, it remains in the catalogue as HK-8 and HK-8a and is routinely listed at auction as representing the New York structure.

    Myths die hard. B)

    While not as definitive as the Crystal Palace SCD, the great thing about the Continental Dollar findings is that it can highlight more interest in exonumia :)

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,472 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Really, it should never have been classified as a coin. Even if issued in the colonies in 1776, there was no monetary authority behind it, was there?

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,880 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @keets said:
    sometimes, and I think this is a good example, the "Legend" reaches a point that is too great to be diminished by the "Truth" about its origin. it may prove very difficult to purge the "Legend" no matter how much evidence supporting it is lacking. conversely, it will prove difficult to have the "Truth" accepted by large parts of the Hobby. when large sums of money are involved, people quite often choose to believe what they want to believe. these are certainly collectible in their own right, but to my thinking they are an expensive foreign souvenir and not a Mythical first United States Dollar Coin.

    for what I collect, they remind me of the 1853 Crystal Palace So-Called Dollar: erroneously listed as struck for the New York event, but clearly struck in Great Britain for the London structure. despite knowing this, it remains in the catalogue as HK-8 and HK-8a and is routinely listed at auction as representing the New York structure.

    Myths die hard. B)

    Myths die very hard when money is involved, especially big money.

    All glory is fleeting.

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