Anybody know the earliest MS-70 U.S. coin?

brianc1959

AFAIK, the earliest MS-69 U.S. coin is a 1793 Wreath Cent: https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-2EPGR/1793-wreath-cent-s-9-rarity-2-noyes-die-state-a-b-intermediate-die-state-breen-die-state-ii-vine-and-bars-edge-ms-69-bn-pcgs-ogh

Does anybody know the earliest MS-70 U.S. coin? Or, perhaps the second-oldest MS-69 coin?

IkesT

Interesting question!

oih82w8

That would depend on who (PCGS, NGC, ANACS, etc...) is grading it.

TurtleCat

When I have some time, I might spend a bit looking through the population stats. That’s probably the easiest way to answer your question.

Jimnight

I would think it would have been when the TPG companies came into play.

mcarney1173

I believe the OP means the earliest dated coin to be graded MS70, not the earliest a coin has been graded MS70. My guess is a 1960s proof, maybe a cent or a dime.

Edit: There is a 1960 Large Date Proof Lincoln graded PR70CAM on the PCGS Pop reports. I haven't checked anything earlier than 1960 yet. If you are excluding proofs I'm also not sure

ricko

I do not recall ever seeing and early (1700's, early 1800's) MS70 coin here.... never checked the pop reports for such. Cheers, RickO

CaptHenway

Question for the OP. Mint State only, right? Not Proof?

brianc1959

@CaptHenway said:
Question for the OP. Mint State only, right? Not Proof?

Originally I was thinking Mint State, but no need to be too restrictive. I'm mainly wondering if anything "non-modern" exists in MS-70, or PR-70 for that matter. Especially pre-20th century.

Pnies20

My brain can’t even fathom a 1793 large cent in ms69...

brianc1959

@Pnies20 said:
My brain can’t even fathom a 1793 large cent in ms69...

Reading through the Stacks auction description there are a couple of other interesting tidbits: 1) its the only 18th century coin graded MS-69, and 2) its the only large cent graded MS-69.

Mdcoincollector2003

I know this isn’t ms70 or American, but the age and how high the grade is just mind boggling.

CaptHenway

While I was at ANACS we certified a Proof $20 Saint Gaudens as a Proof-70. I tried as hard as I could to find a reason not to call it a 70, and I could not.

PerryHall

@CaptHenway said:
While I was at ANACS we certified a Proof $20 Saint Gaudens as a Proof-70. I tried as hard as I could to find a reason not to call it a 70, and I could not.

Do you remember the date?

Rexford

The oldest PR70 is from 1960. Last I knew there were no MS70's issued by PCGS or NGC for circulation-strike coinage, so probably some sort of modern commemorative.

CaptHenway

@PerryHall said:

@CaptHenway said:
While I was at ANACS we certified a Proof $20 Saint Gaudens as a Proof-70. I tried as hard as I could to find a reason not to call it a 70, and I could not.

Do you remember the date?

No.

philographer

Quick PCGS only look...

Earliest Lincoln cent PR70 is 1960. There are no MS70s, any year.
Earliest Jefferson nickel PR70 is 1963. There are no MS70s, any year.
Earliest Roosevelt dime PR70 is 1960. No MS70, any year.
Washington quarters through 1998, no MS70 and earliest PR70 is 1960.
No MS or PR 70 Indian cents, Buffalo nickels, Mercury dimes

Coinosaurus

When did the TPGs first use MS70? I remember going to the ANA grading class and being told by one of the professional graders in the room that their service would "never" use MS70.

sellitstore

The early ANACS photo certificates ONLY used 60, 65 or 70 for MS grades at first, later adding 63 and 67. They may have certified some Morgan Dollars as MS70/70. I don't recall seeing any but they probably existed. They graded obverse and reverse separately.

amwldcoin

Is the PR 70 Lincoln Cent the famous fingerprint coin?

ambro51

I had a 2006 P MS70RD cent. PCGS, That was a satin finish but holders as MS not SP

dpoole

I remember vaguely that things changed with respect to grading coins as "perfect" when they changed the production methods at the Mint.

I'm sure others here recall more details about that.

CaptHenway

@sellitstore said:
The early ANACS photo certificates ONLY used 60, 65 or 70 for MS grades at first, later adding 63 and 67. They may have certified some Morgan Dollars as MS70/70. I don't recall seeing any but they probably existed. They graded obverse and reverse separately.

Not so. I made the decision to use MS-63 & 67 and PF-63 & 67 before we began grading on March 1, 1979. Later we revised the book to match reality.

In my time we never graded a Morgan dollar as MS-70/70.

Raybo

Perfection is boring.
No such thing as an MS70 (perfect) coin in my book.

CaptHenway

@Raybo said:
Perfection is boring.
No such thing as an MS70 (perfect) coin in my book.

You need a better book.

PerryHall

@Raybo said:
Perfection is boring.
No such thing as an MS70 (perfect) coin in my book.

That was the original definition of MS70 when I started collecting coins and was never used since it was considered a theoretical grade since nothing is completely perfect. When third party grading services came along they changed the definition of MS70 from perfect to perfect under 5X magnification.

LanceNewmanOCC

@brianc1959 said:
Reading through the Stacks auction description there are a couple of other interesting tidbits: 1) its the only 18th century coin graded MS-69, and 2) its the only large cent graded MS-69.

i know this is the us coin forum and you inquiry may be for usa only, which is fine but i do recall some fairly old foreign stuff up there in the very very thin air. i really can't recall but perhaps even as far back as 15-16th century ms/pr 69 or higher. i really only recall my astonishment.
those coins may be ATS.

so the guidelines so far are:

ms vs pr
usa vs foreign
pcgs vs ngc
?

fiftysevener

@brianc1959 said:
AFAIK, the earliest MS-69 U.S. coin is a 1793 Wreath Cent: https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-2EPGR/1793-wreath-cent-s-9-rarity-2-noyes-die-state-a-b-intermediate-die-state-breen-die-state-ii-vine-and-bars-edge-ms-69-bn-pcgs-ogh

Does anybody know the earliest MS-70 U.S. coin? Or, perhaps the second-oldest MS-69 coin?

This early cent has been appraised by PCGS as MS 69. It is most certainly not comparable to a modern MS69 coin given hairlines and surface abrasions consistent with a 200 plus year old coin and cannot be given a technical MS 69 grade.

MFeld

@PerryHall said:

@Raybo said:
Perfection is boring.
No such thing as an MS70 (perfect) coin in my book.

That was the original definition of MS70 when I started collecting coins and was never used since it was considered a theoretical grade since nothing is completely perfect. When third party grading services came along they changed the definition of MS70 from perfect to perfect under 5X magnification.

And that makes a big difference!

PerryHall

@MFeld said:

@PerryHall said:

@Raybo said:
Perfection is boring.
No such thing as an MS70 (perfect) coin in my book.

That was the original definition of MS70 when I started collecting coins and was never used since it was considered a theoretical grade since nothing is completely perfect. When third party grading services came along they changed the definition of MS70 from perfect to perfect under 5X magnification.

And that makes a big difference!

Yup. Total game changer. Not sure which grading service used the MS70 first but the other grading services had to follow suit in order to stay competitive.

brianc1959

@fiftysevener said:

@brianc1959 said:
AFAIK, the earliest MS-69 U.S. coin is a 1793 Wreath Cent: https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-2EPGR/1793-wreath-cent-s-9-rarity-2-noyes-die-state-a-b-intermediate-die-state-breen-die-state-ii-vine-and-bars-edge-ms-69-bn-pcgs-ogh

Does anybody know the earliest MS-70 U.S. coin? Or, perhaps the second-oldest MS-69 coin?

This early cent has been appraised by PCGS as MS 69. It is most certainly not comparable to a modern MS69 coin given hairlines and surface abrasions consistent with a 200 plus year old coin and cannot be given a technical MS 69 grade.

So, its not actually MS-69 even though PCGS says it is?

brianc1959

@MFeld said:

@PerryHall said:

@Raybo said:
Perfection is boring.
No such thing as an MS70 (perfect) coin in my book.

That was the original definition of MS70 when I started collecting coins and was never used since it was considered a theoretical grade since nothing is completely perfect. When third party grading services came along they changed the definition of MS70 from perfect to perfect under 5X magnification.

And that makes a big difference!

I've also heard the 5x mag quoted before, and it makes sense. Otherwise people might be looking for atomic-scale bumps in a scanning electron microscope.

brianc1959

@LanceNewmanOCC said:

@brianc1959 said:
Reading through the Stacks auction description there are a couple of other interesting tidbits: 1) its the only 18th century coin graded MS-69, and 2) its the only large cent graded MS-69.

i know this is the us coin forum and you inquiry may be for usa only, which is fine but i do recall some fairly old foreign stuff up there in the very very thin air. i really can't recall but perhaps even as far back as 15-16th century ms/pr 69 or higher. i really only recall my astonishment.
those coins may be ATS.

so the guidelines so far are:

ms vs pr
usa vs foreign
pcgs vs ngc
?

The main thing is that it be something interesting. Hopefully something that readers here may not be familiar with. I wouldn't want to set up rules that might get in the way of that.

LanceNewmanOCC

@philographer said:
Quick PCGS only look...

Earliest Lincoln cent PR70 is 1960. There are no MS70s, any year.
Earliest Jefferson nickel PR70 is 1963. There are no MS70s, any year.
Earliest Roosevelt dime PR70 is 1960. No MS70, any year.
Washington quarters through 1998, no MS70 and earliest PR70 is 1960.
No MS or PR 70 Indian cents, Buffalo nickels, Mercury dimes

.
well done doing that research. if you can do that than you've seen some major ironies.

21st century usa coins are sometimes not as nice ms/pr, especially proofs, from the previous century or two.

half cents highest/earliest ms67 1794
gold $1 highest/earliest ms69 1849 (with a few other 69s throughout)
draped bust $2.5 tops out at ms65 1796
2c unimpressively ms67 1864 - i didn't recall seeing any bombs out there, pops confirmed
3cs 1852 ms68 - must be a stunner - many other 68s scattered
3cn 1888 ms68 and what a year for it
1c chains top out at a mere 67 (lol) with the 93 wreath we already know ms69
(highest graded usa large cent by 2 grades. didn't see any others unless it is a late date?)
$2.5 indian ms68 1911 with only 1 other ms68 none higher 1915 proof both years - ms stops at ms67
$3 1854 ms68 with only a couple other 68 scattered
$5 draped 1795 ms65- 1800 ms66
$10 draped 1795 ms66! with only 1 other ms66, 1799
$10 lib 1838 ms66
1/2 10c 1792 ms68 !
20c 1875-s ms68 - san francisco!
Shilling Oak 1652 ms66 ! - must be an absolute beast
50c 1795 ms65
100c 1794 ms66
Pattern 10c denom 1792 j-11 ms65 - rb
??? 1976-78 titanium gould inc ms66 - no idea what these are, nor the ones around them in the pops
privately issued patterns - also new to me. a whole section for them
die trials have a neat section too

japan - nothing listed prior 1869?

i only really count legal tender for this exercise even if demonitized.

this has the spot so far. i've only started into the foreign.

gold $1 highest/earliest ms69 1849 (with a few other 69s throughout)

there are coins out there in pcgs holders that do not show in the pops or not that i've ever been able to find them.

Anybody know the earliest MS-70 U.S. coin?

looks like 1960 is the year to beat!

winesteven

@philographer said:
Quick PCGS only look...

Earliest Lincoln cent PR70 is 1960. There are no MS70s, any year.
Earliest Jefferson nickel PR70 is 1963. There are no MS70s, any year.
Earliest Roosevelt dime PR70 is 1960. No MS70, any year.
Washington quarters through 1998, no MS70 and earliest PR70 is 1960.
No MS or PR 70 Indian cents, Buffalo nickels, Mercury dimes

Can someone share then what mint production practice(s) changed in 1960 that allowed many of those coins in three different denominations to merit the coveted PR70 grade, yet no proof coins in any of those same denominations dated before 1960 to reach that grade level? They still used the plastic flat packs in 1960, not the “better” hard cases.

ɹoʇɔǝlloɔ

@brianc1959 said:

@MFeld said:

@PerryHall said:

@Raybo said:

I've also heard the 5x mag quoted before, and it makes sense. Otherwise people might be looking for atomic-scale bumps in a scanning electron microscope.

I really like this idea; totally the way to get a perfect, molecular accurate coin - which mint will be the first to print/scaffold an atomically accurate coin? I know this is a us forum, but my money would be on rcm partnership w mit - and it'll cost 1M cad 😂

LanceNewmanOCC

@winesteven said:
Can someone share then what mint production practice(s) changed in 1960 that allowed many of those

.
that is a good point. can't be that coincidental.

i'm not going over to look to see what ms68/69 looks like in that era for those denoms.

LanceNewmanOCC

@LanceNewmanOCC said:

@winesteven said:
Can someone share then what mint production practice(s) changed in 1960 that allowed many of those

.
that is a good point. can't be that coincidental.

i'm not going over to look to see what ms68/69 looks like in that era for those denoms.

it is just plain weird. look prior to the 60s, then look at the 60s, then look 60s-90s. no general comment other that to say, inconsistent results (not against TPG).

brianc1959

i apologize when i said we have a winner earlier. the op asked about MS not PR. so we still need to dig.

lincoln cent not until 2019 @!@!@!
no jefferson ms70 !@!@!@!
no roosevelt ms70 @!@!@!
no washington quarter ms70 @!@!@!
mercs have a few 69s (virtually all 39-d) and tons of 68s
slq has a handful of 68s with many 67s
walkers have a lone 69 with tons of 68s
frankie is bottl-necked at 67/67+
jfk didn't start warming up to 68/69s until 80s/90s and then 2014 has enhanced 70s but don't count?
sba has some 68s and you start seeing more as time goes on.
ike bottle-necks at ms67/67+ for early issues but those 71/2/3/4 S-mint ones have some 69s.

i just broke pcgs pop reports so i'll do some more searching later.

i'm not counting any sp/matte other designation. just straight-up ms70.

like i said about irony. there are nicer (numeric-grade wise) 20th century coins than 21st!!!!!!!!!!!!

SullivanNumismatics

Never seen an MS70 major mint error...MS69's, no 70's.

daltex

So there are no MS70s except for NCLT? I don't consider 2019(W) Lincolns circulating.

fiftysevener

@brianc1959 said:

@fiftysevener said:

@brianc1959 said:
AFAIK, the earliest MS-69 U.S. coin is a 1793 Wreath Cent: https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-2EPGR/1793-wreath-cent-s-9-rarity-2-noyes-die-state-a-b-intermediate-die-state-breen-die-state-ii-vine-and-bars-edge-ms-69-bn-pcgs-ogh

Does anybody know the earliest MS-70 U.S. coin? Or, perhaps the second-oldest MS-69 coin?

This early cent has been appraised by PCGS as MS 69. It is most certainly not comparable to a modern MS69 coin given hairlines and surface abrasions consistent with a 200 plus year old coin and cannot be given a technical MS 69 grade.

So, its not actually MS-69 even though PCGS says it is?

Coin is not a technical MS 69. PCGS was asked to appraise this coin and they decided it is worthy of MS 69 money.
I've been against this grading approach for about 25 years and firmly believe that the market can price coins like this.
It wasn't like this until NGC became recognized as a competitor. They bet that the grade is solid only because they know there are no REAL nearly perfect coins of this type. So the problem then becomes what are they gonna do if a real MS 69 coin of this type does appear ? There are numerous Bust and Seated coins graded this way as you probably know.

ElKevvo

@brianc1959 said:

So, its not actually MS-69 even though PCGS says it is?

Coin is not a technical MS 69. PCGS was asked to appraise this coin and they decided it is worthy of MS 69 money.

And that is why I guess I am glad I don't dabble in the high end coin market (well that and finances). That kind of stuff drives me nuts...the technical grade should be disconnected from the market value of the coin. If it is superior it will command a higher price to the astute collector. Market grading just muddies the waters and confuses things especially for new collectors IMO. But...it is fodder for good conversation!

Also...this is a great thread with lots of interesting information...thanks to all who have contributed!

K

daltex

So I guess the correct answer is that the oldest 70 is the 1960 proof Lincoln, the oldest MS70 is the 1983 (pick P, D, or S) Olympic dollar, and the oldest circulating MS70 hasn't been discovered yet.

Tomthecoinguy

@CaptHenway said:
While I was at ANACS we certified a Proof $20 Saint Gaudens as a Proof-70. I tried as hard as I could to find a reason not to call it a 70, and I could not.

Cool!

Desert Moon

@fiftysevener said:

@brianc1959 said:

@fiftysevener said:

@brianc1959 said:
AFAIK, the earliest MS-69 U.S. coin is a 1793 Wreath Cent: https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-2EPGR/1793-wreath-cent-s-9-rarity-2-noyes-die-state-a-b-intermediate-die-state-breen-die-state-ii-vine-and-bars-edge-ms-69-bn-pcgs-ogh

Does anybody know the earliest MS-70 U.S. coin? Or, perhaps the second-oldest MS-69 coin?

This early cent has been appraised by PCGS as MS 69. It is most certainly not comparable to a modern MS69 coin given hairlines and surface abrasions consistent with a 200 plus year old coin and cannot be given a technical MS 69 grade.

So, its not actually MS-69 even though PCGS says it is?

Coin is not a technical MS 69. PCGS was asked to appraise this coin and they decided it is worthy of MS 69 money.
I've been against this grading approach for about 25 years and firmly believe that the market can price coins like this.
It wasn't like this until NGC became recognized as a competitor. They bet that the grade is solid only because they know there are no REAL nearly perfect coins of this type. So the problem then becomes what are they gonna do if a real MS 69 coin of this type does appear ? There are numerous Bust and Seated coins graded this way as you probably know.

And that is why it has not been beaned............

fiftysevener

@spacehayduke said:

@fiftysevener said:

@brianc1959 said:

@fiftysevener said:

@brianc1959 said:
AFAIK, the earliest MS-69 U.S. coin is a 1793 Wreath Cent: https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-2EPGR/1793-wreath-cent-s-9-rarity-2-noyes-die-state-a-b-intermediate-die-state-breen-die-state-ii-vine-and-bars-edge-ms-69-bn-pcgs-ogh

Does anybody know the earliest MS-70 U.S. coin? Or, perhaps the second-oldest MS-69 coin?

This early cent has been appraised by PCGS as MS 69. It is most certainly not comparable to a modern MS69 coin given hairlines and surface abrasions consistent with a 200 plus year old coin and cannot be given a technical MS 69 grade.

So, its not actually MS-69 even though PCGS says it is?

Coin is not a technical MS 69. PCGS was asked to appraise this coin and they decided it is worthy of MS 69 money.
I've been against this grading approach for about 25 years and firmly believe that the market can price coins like this.
It wasn't like this until NGC became recognized as a competitor. They bet that the grade is solid only because they know there are no REAL nearly perfect coins of this type. So the problem then becomes what are they gonna do if a real MS 69 coin of this type does appear ? There are numerous Bust and Seated coins graded this way as you probably know.

And that is why it has not been beaned............

That' s probably right and I don't think JA likes that kind of stuff going on. But it really doesn't matter [on a coin of this rarity] what the grade on the holder is or if it has CAC verification does it ? Does it even matter whether it's in a PCGS or NGC holder ? Of course it does

batumi

@amwldcoin said:
Is the PR 70 Lincoln Cent the famous fingerprint coin?

Careful with that one, or risk being banned!