@philographer said:
I love the chaos, the highs and lows, the wins and losses, the war against the bots, the drama, the ability to flip. There are really no rules as the process changes each time. It’s part of the game and I hope it never changes.
Trying to think what this has to do with numismatics, actually.
Well, much of collecting is about the quest...
In today’s world, with the internet, much of the quest is gone. With Google and a credit card, and a thought out plan, you can build a decent collection in a short time.
At least the US mint is keeping it interesting.
But is anyone really unable to fulfill the "quest" for this coin? I don't mean at issue price, of course, but can't anyone who wants to, and can afford it, get a dozen of the gold and a hundred of the silver? Maybe I'm missing the point, but it appears that to build this "decent collection" in a short time, you'd have to pay more than issue price. Same with a hoard of these.
@MsMorrisine said:
the unhappy numbers can be significantly reduced via mint to demand.
But of course there are many made happy by the opportunity to flip for a (large) profit. If they (or anything) were minted on demand, there would be a very shallow secondary market.
I would prefer they continue the present method - although with improved software. The present system always crashes. Many of us were 'blocked' and had to resort to requests for reinstatement. Perhaps the mint IT people could consult with other entities that have software capable of handling high volume trade. Onward to the next exciting offering... Cheers, RickO
@MsMorrisine said:
the unhappy numbers can be significantly reduced via mint to demand.
If it were mint to demand then there’s not point in fighting over getting the coin. That’s the fun part of this.
There was absolutely nothing fun about this release.
Not everyone can be happy with a limited release. There’s a limited number which is why many are chasing it. The fun is in trying what you can to secure one from the mint.
Collector 87 Positive BST transactions buying and selling with 53 members and counting! instagram.com/klnumismatics
@cagcrisp said:
I’m Not in favor of a Lottery and I think MTD (Mint To Demand) is the Worst possible thing the Mint could do…
Do you have a workable solution in mind that would satisfy a high percentage of mint customers. ?
Trying to get a the V75 Gold or the V75 Silver was the Worst experience I’ve ever had with the United States Mint.
That being said, a free for all that the Mint currently implements is the Fairest of all possibilities for those that Actually want a coin.
The Mint needs to work on some things. Once you get a product in your bag and it goes CU then you Should be able to check out with what is remaining in your bag and you Shouldn’t have to spend 10 minutes trying to take a CU item out of the bag.
Let’s assume there were 200k people on the website on Thursday. That means 98% of people will be upset to some extent for not being able to get a V75 Gold…No matter what the United States Mint does.
Let’s assume there were 200k people on the website on Thursday. That means 62.5% of people will be upset to some extent for not being able to get a V75 Silver…No matter what the United States Mint does.
Let’s assume the Mint goes to a Lottery System. I worked for a major corporation for years and I coached for years. I currently have approximately 10 Friends and Family accounts that I use to purchase coins from the United States Mint. Between my hundreds of FB Friends, my hundreds of employees that worked for me and the hundreds of people I coached, it would be Easy for me to sign up a couple of hundred people for a Lottery System. SO…With a Lottery System you could go from an assumed 200k people to easily millions of people that sign up for a lottery. SO…instead of me having 1 chance out of 200k to get a V75 Gold then I could easily go to 1 chance out of a millions. A Lottery System just creates more accounts.
Let’s assume the Mint goes to a MTD (Mint to Demand) System. Mint to Demand will eventually destroy all secondary market pricing. What happened in the past with United States Mint customers is not what is currently happening with the Mint. Without a secondary market, the Mint really has High Priced Bullion…
Thanks for your detailed analysis.
How about this added to the lottery. This forum has a rating system. It's reflected in the stars next to you screen name on every post.
The mint could have a customer rating which would effect your lottery chance. Factors would raise your rating and chance in the lottery. To be fair to new, sometimes younger, customers. the lottery would draw from every rating category by some formula. Your mint loyalty and longevity should figure in somehow. New customers need to included or they would be snuff out of any chance at all.
I don't have a detailed plan but it seems better for any lottery to reward long time loyal customers. Not all would want every new item making more available to those that do. The hundreds of friends, relative, neighbors or employees would carry lower ratings meaning fewer of them would be there at the opening bell. Meaning better chances for long term loyal customers. Ratings would be individual so having a crown that was asked to but for you would not tip the scales as they possibly do now. Multiple accounts would not be necessary or allowed as ratings are individual.
This needs fleshing out to an actual proposal. It could be important that opening day for these type of coins retain the limit of 1. Opening up in following days.
@cagcrisp said:
I’m Not in favor of a Lottery and I think MTD (Mint To Demand) is the Worst possible thing the Mint could do…
Do you have a workable solution in mind that would satisfy a high percentage of mint customers. ?
Trying to get a the V75 Gold or the V75 Silver was the Worst experience I’ve ever had with the United States Mint.
That being said, a free for all that the Mint currently implements is the Fairest of all possibilities for those that Actually want a coin.
The Mint needs to work on some things. Once you get a product in your bag and it goes CU then you Should be able to check out with what is remaining in your bag and you Shouldn’t have to spend 10 minutes trying to take a CU item out of the bag.
Let’s assume there were 200k people on the website on Thursday. That means 98% of people will be upset to some extent for not being able to get a V75 Gold…No matter what the United States Mint does.
Let’s assume there were 200k people on the website on Thursday. That means 62.5% of people will be upset to some extent for not being able to get a V75 Silver…No matter what the United States Mint does.
Let’s assume the Mint goes to a Lottery System. I worked for a major corporation for years and I coached for years. I currently have approximately 10 Friends and Family accounts that I use to purchase coins from the United States Mint. Between my hundreds of FB Friends, my hundreds of employees that worked for me and the hundreds of people I coached, it would be Easy for me to sign up a couple of hundred people for a Lottery System. SO…With a Lottery System you could go from an assumed 200k people to easily millions of people that sign up for a lottery. SO…instead of me having 1 chance out of 200k to get a V75 Gold then I could easily go to 1 chance out of a millions. A Lottery System just creates more accounts.
Let’s assume the Mint goes to a MTD (Mint to Demand) System. Mint to Demand will eventually destroy all secondary market pricing. What happened in the past with United States Mint customers is not what is currently happening with the Mint. Without a secondary market, the Mint really has High Priced Bullion…
What would be wrong with the lack of a secondary market and the Mint selling reasonably priced (instead of “High Priced) “Bullion”?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
"The mission of the U.S. Mint is to serve the American people by manufacturing and distributing circulating, precious metal and collectible coins and national medals, and providing security over assets entrusted to us."
@cagcrisp said:
I’m Not in favor of a Lottery and I think MTD (Mint To Demand) is the Worst possible thing the Mint could do…
Do you have a workable solution in mind that would satisfy a high percentage of mint customers. ?
Trying to get a the V75 Gold or the V75 Silver was the Worst experience I’ve ever had with the United States Mint.
That being said, a free for all that the Mint currently implements is the Fairest of all possibilities for those that Actually want a coin.
The Mint needs to work on some things. Once you get a product in your bag and it goes CU then you Should be able to check out with what is remaining in your bag and you Shouldn’t have to spend 10 minutes trying to take a CU item out of the bag.
Let’s assume there were 200k people on the website on Thursday. That means 98% of people will be upset to some extent for not being able to get a V75 Gold…No matter what the United States Mint does.
Let’s assume there were 200k people on the website on Thursday. That means 62.5% of people will be upset to some extent for not being able to get a V75 Silver…No matter what the United States Mint does.
Let’s assume the Mint goes to a Lottery System. I worked for a major corporation for years and I coached for years. I currently have approximately 10 Friends and Family accounts that I use to purchase coins from the United States Mint. Between my hundreds of FB Friends, my hundreds of employees that worked for me and the hundreds of people I coached, it would be Easy for me to sign up a couple of hundred people for a Lottery System. SO…With a Lottery System you could go from an assumed 200k people to easily millions of people that sign up for a lottery. SO…instead of me having 1 chance out of 200k to get a V75 Gold then I could easily go to 1 chance out of a millions. A Lottery System just creates more accounts.
Let’s assume the Mint goes to a MTD (Mint to Demand) System. Mint to Demand will eventually destroy all secondary market pricing. What happened in the past with United States Mint customers is not what is currently happening with the Mint. Without a secondary market, the Mint really has High Priced Bullion…
What would be wrong with the lack of a secondary market and the Mint selling reasonably priced (instead of “High Priced) “Bullion”?
The United States Mint is required to operate at No cost to the taxpayers.
In FY2018 the Mint Lost $21.2M on the numismatic side of business.
In CY2019 the Mint raised prices 16 times.
In FY2019 the Mint Lost $6.9M on the numismatic side of business.
In CY2020 the Mint has raised prices 82 times.
The Mint has yet to report how much it has Lost in FY2020 that ended in September...
@olympicsos said:
The 2009 UHR is how a program should be run. Anyone who wants one can get one provided they order by a specified date. There should be NO MORE low mintage limit offerings unless Congress authorizes a mintage limit like it does on commemorative coins. The US Mint should also stick to the KISS principle when it comes to its products, it's already losing money on numismatic operations.
...and the mint will continue to lose money on numismatic operations with the huge increases on silver products=fewer and fewer sales, along with a lot of disappointed customers shut out of this latest fubar-not to return.
@philographer said:
I love the chaos, the highs and lows, the wins and losses, the war against the bots, the drama, the ability to flip. There are really no rules as the process changes each time. It’s part of the game and I hope it never changes.
Trying to think what this has to do with numismatics, actually.
Well, much of collecting is about the quest...
In today’s world, with the internet, much of the quest is gone. With Google and a credit card, and a thought out plan, you can build a decent collection in a short time.
At least the US mint is keeping it interesting.
But is anyone really unable to fulfill the "quest" for this coin? I don't mean at issue price, of course, but can't anyone who wants to, and can afford it, get a dozen of the gold and a hundred of the silver? Maybe I'm missing the point, but it appears that to build this "decent collection" in a short time, you'd have to pay more than issue price. Same with a hoard of these.
I agree with your statement. I also believe patience on these moderns is worth its weight in gold-at least in saving considerable sums of collecting or stacking funds. Anyone else recall the 70K+ 1995-W ASE and the 30K 1993 AGE's in PR70? The 2020 AGE with the privy mark, low mintage and all, is truly scarce-not rare-and will always be available for a price. how high of a price is the question.
As the whistle blower from last year's ASE bot incidents, I tried to avoid this topic since the Mint clearly lied about the numbers with their poorly executed actions. But you guys finally lured me out of my cave and made me post again.
Please stop with the lottery suggestion, it would only make the matter worst since everyone including their pet roaches would be able to enter. The chance of a real collectors getting the coin would be even lower with "set it and forget it".
The best solution for both collectors and Mint is the Stamps/ token process. Think of Mint 's free shipping. How many of you got sucker in by making purchase 3 times of more within one year?
Now apply that same rule to ASE purchase from Mint while letting the true collectors a head start.
Lets say all ASE collector who had purchased a W proof, S proof, and burnish ASE this year got a stamp as a special token to use as an early access to purchase V75 on the release day, wouldn't it benefit both Mint and the collectors?
Comments
I did. Even included multiple links to this forum in order to:
~ illustrate the level of discontent.
~ suggest a potential 'fix' (i.e., a lottery).
But is anyone really unable to fulfill the "quest" for this coin? I don't mean at issue price, of course, but can't anyone who wants to, and can afford it, get a dozen of the gold and a hundred of the silver? Maybe I'm missing the point, but it appears that to build this "decent collection" in a short time, you'd have to pay more than issue price. Same with a hoard of these.
But of course there are many made happy by the opportunity to flip for a (large) profit. If they (or anything) were minted on demand, there would be a very shallow secondary market.
Instead of making all 1945 available at once, why not 100 every hour, on the hour?
That way, we can stretch out the excitement
I would prefer they continue the present method - although with improved software. The present system always crashes. Many of us were 'blocked' and had to resort to requests for reinstatement. Perhaps the mint IT people could consult with other entities that have software capable of handling high volume trade. Onward to the next exciting offering...
Cheers, RickO
another thread exists -- https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1046416/should-the-mint-try-a-lottery-for-low-mintage-high-demand-coins
it has been said stuffing the lottery box would still reduce people's chances
mint
to
demand
The Mint is treating their customers like dogs..............rather Pavlovian, I would say.
I knew it would happen.
You are funny. The link is to this thread. HaHaHa got me !
You are right!!!! I had to check! lol...
I’m Not in favor of a Lottery and I think MTD (Mint To Demand) is the Worst possible thing the Mint could do…
Yes
There was absolutely nothing fun about this release.
Not everyone can be happy with a limited release. There’s a limited number which is why many are chasing it. The fun is in trying what you can to secure one from the mint.
Collector
87 Positive BST transactions buying and selling with 53 members and counting!
instagram.com/klnumismatics
Do you have a workable solution in mind that would satisfy a high percentage of mint customers. ?
Could Mint "Almost" to demand.... but ...
No matter what if it is not minted to demand it is a lottery and there will be people disappointed...
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
Trying to get a the V75 Gold or the V75 Silver was the Worst experience I’ve ever had with the United States Mint.
That being said, a free for all that the Mint currently implements is the Fairest of all possibilities for those that Actually want a coin.
The Mint needs to work on some things. Once you get a product in your bag and it goes CU then you Should be able to check out with what is remaining in your bag and you Shouldn’t have to spend 10 minutes trying to take a CU item out of the bag.
Let’s assume there were 200k people on the website on Thursday. That means 98% of people will be upset to some extent for not being able to get a V75 Gold…No matter what the United States Mint does.
Let’s assume there were 200k people on the website on Thursday. That means 62.5% of people will be upset to some extent for not being able to get a V75 Silver…No matter what the United States Mint does.
Let’s assume the Mint goes to a Lottery System. I worked for a major corporation for years and I coached for years. I currently have approximately 10 Friends and Family accounts that I use to purchase coins from the United States Mint. Between my hundreds of FB Friends, my hundreds of employees that worked for me and the hundreds of people I coached, it would be Easy for me to sign up a couple of hundred people for a Lottery System. SO…With a Lottery System you could go from an assumed 200k people to easily millions of people that sign up for a lottery. SO…instead of me having 1 chance out of 200k to get a V75 Gold then I could easily go to 1 chance out of a millions. A Lottery System just creates more accounts.
Let’s assume the Mint goes to a MTD (Mint to Demand) System. Mint to Demand will eventually destroy all secondary market pricing. What happened in the past with United States Mint customers is not what is currently happening with the Mint. Without a secondary market, the Mint really has High Priced Bullion…
Thanks for your detailed analysis.
How about this added to the lottery. This forum has a rating system. It's reflected in the stars next to you screen name on every post.
The mint could have a customer rating which would effect your lottery chance. Factors would raise your rating and chance in the lottery. To be fair to new, sometimes younger, customers. the lottery would draw from every rating category by some formula. Your mint loyalty and longevity should figure in somehow. New customers need to included or they would be snuff out of any chance at all.
I don't have a detailed plan but it seems better for any lottery to reward long time loyal customers. Not all would want every new item making more available to those that do. The hundreds of friends, relative, neighbors or employees would carry lower ratings meaning fewer of them would be there at the opening bell. Meaning better chances for long term loyal customers. Ratings would be individual so having a crown that was asked to but for you would not tip the scales as they possibly do now. Multiple accounts would not be necessary or allowed as ratings are individual.
This needs fleshing out to an actual proposal. It could be important that opening day for these type of coins retain the limit of 1. Opening up in following days.
What would be wrong with the lack of a secondary market and the Mint selling reasonably priced (instead of “High Priced) “Bullion”?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
About the United States Mint
"The mission of the U.S. Mint is to serve the American people by manufacturing and distributing circulating, precious metal and collectible coins and national medals, and providing security over assets entrusted to us."
https://www.usmint.gov/about
The United States Mint is required to operate at No cost to the taxpayers.
In FY2018 the Mint Lost $21.2M on the numismatic side of business.
In CY2019 the Mint raised prices 16 times.
In FY2019 the Mint Lost $6.9M on the numismatic side of business.
In CY2020 the Mint has raised prices 82 times.
The Mint has yet to report how much it has Lost in FY2020 that ended in September...
...and the mint will continue to lose money on numismatic operations with the huge increases on silver products=fewer and fewer sales, along with a lot of disappointed customers shut out of this latest fubar-not to return.
I agree with your statement. I also believe patience on these moderns is worth its weight in gold-at least in saving considerable sums of collecting or stacking funds. Anyone else recall the 70K+ 1995-W ASE and the 30K 1993 AGE's in PR70? The 2020 AGE with the privy mark, low mintage and all, is truly scarce-not rare-and will always be available for a price. how high of a price is the question.
As the whistle blower from last year's ASE bot incidents, I tried to avoid this topic since the Mint clearly lied about the numbers with their poorly executed actions. But you guys finally lured me out of my cave and made me post again.
Please stop with the lottery suggestion, it would only make the matter worst since everyone including their pet roaches would be able to enter. The chance of a real collectors getting the coin would be even lower with "set it and forget it".
The best solution for both collectors and Mint is the Stamps/ token process. Think of Mint 's free shipping. How many of you got sucker in by making purchase 3 times of more within one year?
Now apply that same rule to ASE purchase from Mint while letting the true collectors a head start.
Lets say all ASE collector who had purchased a W proof, S proof, and burnish ASE this year got a stamp as a special token to use as an early access to purchase V75 on the release day, wouldn't it benefit both Mint and the collectors?