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Sell Numismatic Coins and Buy Precious Metals?

CoinHoarderCoinHoarder Posts: 610 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited November 2, 2020 11:39AM in Precious Metals

I am getting up there in age. My family has no interest in coins. I can count the number of times that I have sold a coin on one hand.

Has anybody here, sold their numismatic or collectible coins, and bought bullion with the money?

I was thinking that it would be better to leave bullion to my family, rather than coins. This way the value could be easily tracked by daily spot, and cashed in whenever my heir(s) decide to do so. A much more liquid option.

I am very interested in any suggestions or experiences you may have had.

Thank you for your input on this matter.

Comments

  • taxmadtaxmad Posts: 688 ✭✭✭

    To your first question - no. I have helped others dispose of coins and bullion they inherited. Bullion is obviously easier to convert to cash and much easier to determine value.

    That being said - are you sure your heirs would be interested in having bullion? If they are going to rush out the day after they get the bullion and sell it, why not just leave them cash? I am assuming your estate would be under the minimum and therefore exempt from estate taxes...

  • maplemanmapleman Posts: 1,030 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My experience coincides with your concern. I have reduced my graded and collectable coins to a very few and have been working with pm's as best for my family to deal with as an estate matter and there is plenty of action in metals . Spot is a far simpler metric than graded and raw coins and certainly easier to liquidate. Best of luck with your decision. collectable> @CoinHoarder said:

    I am getting up there in age. My family has no interest in coins. I can count the number of times that I have sold a coin on one hand.

    Has anybody here, sold their numismatic or collectible coins, and bought bullion with the money?

    I was thinking that it would be better to leave bullion to my family, rather than coins. This way the value could be easily tracked by daily spot, and cashed in whenever my heir(s) decide to do so. A much more liquid option.

    I am very interested in any suggestions or experiences you may have had.

    Thank you for your input on this matter.

  • SimpleCollectorSimpleCollector Posts: 330 ✭✭✭✭

    Yes, I have posted here and in the main forum. I sold my entire type set. As I sold it, I used the funds to acquire different silver bars that I got for spot or minimal over spot and also generic gold.

    I also put together a type set of generic pre-1933 coins as bullion. Most, but not all of the coins were bought for spot or <spot plus 10%. I found liberty 5 and liberty 10 dollar coins to be readily available, and both of the $20. I haven’t found the $1 and $2.5 close to spot, but they are fairly cheap....also, when I was looking, modern gold commem’s were trading in the spot plus spot+5% range.

    I am getting ready to do the same with my cwt... just arranged to part with the first tranche. Will use the funds for more bullion type. Easier to keep track of, and you can still enjoy the hunt for different type of bullion at good prices.

  • dpooledpoole Posts: 5,770 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've left specific instructions to my heirs about who to contact regarding my rare coins.

    There will always be individuals with an interest in collectibles who have the resources to invest in them. If they are quality, I would not abandon them. Collectibles historically have preserved value well in that population.

    That does not gainsay bullion at all. If you have resources in bullion, I would not abandon them at all in this climate. But if you have true numismatic rarities, particularly in gold/silver, and gold proofs, I would not be converting them in to bullion.

    IMHO, since you asked.

  • CoinHoarderCoinHoarder Posts: 610 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I will probably keep a box of 20, or something like that.

    I am keeping ALL of my ‘junk” silver and gold.

    As far as ‘specific instructions to my heirs”. If I dispose of the coins for them now, it will save them the time and hassle down the road. With the gold and silver, they will have a liquid asset with no work involved for them. Especially since they know nothing about coins.

  • tincuptincup Posts: 3,666 ✭✭✭✭

    CoinHoarder sounds like a good way to proceed. It is a subject that has been on my mind also, and I am tending to reduce the amount of numismatic items I have accumulated.

    ----- kj
  • tincuptincup Posts: 3,666 ✭✭✭✭

    And IMO keeping some precious metals is a good financial hedge in one's investments/savings at any age... young or old.

    ----- kj
  • rickoricko Posts: 77,889 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I am completely in favor of selling the coins and acquiring bullion - silver ASE's or gold AGE's.... @derryb summed it up nicely in his post. I will be doing exactly that at some point in the near future. Cheers, RickO

  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 41,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2020 7:12AM

    Many heirs have come to me. Some with coin collections and some with silver and gold. Those with silver and gold are usually cashing in at spot and often times with the story of how dad always recommended buying silver and gold. ( I often scratch my head wondering why they're doing the opposite.)
    Those with coins , often take much longer to deal with because we get "story time". It is hard to advise, on the dealer side of the counter. And the better question is ; " where is the best trade-off ?
    Good coins will often outperform gold and silver by a huge margin. Sometimes not. Whatever suits you is fine. I buy, sell, and trade.

    No spam intended. Enjoy your coins. They can't be replaced as easily as silver and gold. Especially those "select" pieces. It (silver and gold) usually can't be bought at bargain prices until there's a crash. And then, value is reduced across the board. We have seen silver go from five to fifty and back to ten.
    We have seen gold go from $50 to $2000 and back to $1000. And now ?

    I once bought a key date gold coin for ten grand. Ten years earlier it was $17k. I recently bought and sold the same (1911-D $2.5 gold Indian PCGS 62 for under $6k).
    Take David Hall's advice. "Enjoy youR coins", and "Go long on gold".
    ... I am.

  • Downtown1974Downtown1974 Posts: 5,470 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I like the idea. I think it’s a good move to have some metals in your portfolio. You can still collect coins at some capacity if you’d like. It may make you a more focused collector to sell your current collection, buy PMs and just streamline your coins to the ones you really like. Seems like a win/win.

  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 9,035 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:
    Between now and when the heirs receive their inheritance what will the purchasing power of cash collected today from the sale of the coins be worth at the time of inheritance? And what will the bullion bought today with the sold coins be worth at the time of inheritance. Bullion wins, hands down. The longer the OP lives the more the bullion will win over the cash.

    The way the economy, and the dollar are going, bullion bought now will be worth much more in the future than dollars bought now. This is a good example of how PMs are in fact a store of value. It is also a good example of how PMs are dollar insurance.

    Also, the inherited asset (bullion) will get a new basis (cost) at time of inheritance - its basis will become the current value at time of inheritance. If liquidated at time of inheritance the sale price will be very close to the newly established basis resulting in little taxable profit. This is a good example why it's best to not liquidate an asset before death if the proceeds are going to go to the heirs; best to leave them the asset that they can sell at close to zero profit because of the newly established basis.

    The heirs will have no trouble getting current market value for their bullion either immediately or over a stretched out period of time. As stated the future value of bullion should greatly outperform the future value of depreciating dollars. Each of my kids are going to be able to cash in a tube of ASEs every month for at least 20 years - a nice little supplemental retirement gift from Pop.

    Leave them bullion and don't record any cost basis or that you even left them anything at all.

    Can we have a moratorium on posts telling fools they need to pay taxes on the stuff they sell?

    Never ever pay taxes on anything voluntarily . But lets not tempt fate by trying to record the sales as tax losses with a bunch of goofy receipts

    No receipts no taxes no metal here uncle sam you must have me confused with some other village idjit

  • derrybderryb Posts: 30,376 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 4, 2020 7:31AM

    @bronco2078 said:
    Leave them bullion and don't record any cost basis or that you even left them anything at all.

    Unless they make a cash, under the table sale, a recorded cost basis at time of inheritance will come in handy down the road. Anything but a cash sale leaves a digital foot print. Even a cash sale can be tracked if it gets deposited.

    Can we have a moratorium on posts telling fools they need to pay taxes on the stuff they sell?

    The only fools I know are the ones who don't think they have to report income. Understanding tax implications of coin sales is important to those who wish to remain arms length from the IRS. For those who think it's important, it's simple - disregard information on tax implications involving your coin/bullion sales. But do not deny the information to those that wish to have it.

    To be clear, my earlier post was not a reminder to pay taxes. It was a reminder that inherited assets get a new cost basis at time of inheritance - something few realize and something that makes a very big difference on gained profit.

    Never ever pay taxes on anything voluntarily.

    Between 1099's and the digital footprints of money, the transaction has most likely already been "volunteered." IRS has taken action in recent years to see to it that one of your transaction parties is required to volunteer info on you. Not volunteering the same info yourself will not work out very well, but feel free to take your chances. . . try telling the IRS auditor that Paypal or APMEX must have made a mistake on the 1099K.

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  • Gam3rBlakeGam3rBlake Posts: 162 ✭✭✭

    @CoinHoarder said:
    I am getting up there in age. My family has no interest in coins. I can count the number of times that I have sold a coin on one hand.

    Has anybody here, sold their numismatic or collectible coins, and bought bullion with the money?

    I was thinking that it would be better to leave bullion to my family, rather than coins. This way the value could be easily tracked by daily spot, and cashed in whenever my heir(s) decide to do so. A much more liquid option.

    I am very interested in any suggestions or experiences you may have had.

    Thank you for your input on this matter.

    I think you should keep your numismatic coins. Even if your family doesn’t care for them maybe you’ll have descendants down the line who DO care and will value your centuries old coins (which would probably be worth more 100 years from now.)

    Heck I wish my great grandparents had saved me some coins from their day or the past.

    A couple CC Morgan Dollars and I would be set for life. 😂

  • derrybderryb Posts: 30,376 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Gam3rBlake said:

    I think you should keep your numismatic coins. Even if your family doesn’t care for them maybe you’ll have descendants down the line who DO care and will value your centuries old coins (which would probably be worth more 100 years from now.)

    Unfortunately, heirs who do not appreciate an asset tend to quickly liquidate it just to smell the cash.

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  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 9,035 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:

    @bronco2078 said:
    Leave them bullion and don't record any cost basis or that you even left them anything at all.

    Unless they make a cash, under the table sale, a recorded cost basis at time of inheritance will come in handy down the road. Anything but a cash sale leaves a digital foot print. Even a cash sale can be tracked if it gets deposited.

    Can we have a moratorium on posts telling fools they need to pay taxes on the stuff they sell?

    The only fools I know are the ones who don't think they have to report income.

    Never ever pay taxes on anything voluntarily.

    Between 1099's and the digital footprints of money, the transaction has most likely already been "volunteered." IRS has taken action in recent years to see to it that one of your transaction parties is required to volunteer info on you. Not volunteering the same info yourself will not work out very well, but feel free to take your chances. . . try telling the IRS auditor that Paypal or APMEX must have made a mistake on the 1099K.

    sell it on the BST !!! paypal gift only !!! nearly every post says that :o im sure it all gets reported voluntarily though :D

  • derrybderryb Posts: 30,376 ✭✭✭✭✭

    all paypal transactions leave a digital footprint, especially when the funds get transferred to a bank account.

    but, like I said, feel free to take your chances.

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  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 41,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 4, 2020 7:12AM

    We can sure steer the chat away from a common area , like a discussion about swapping one asset class for another. Stock traders do it wildly, daily. And the tax code remains. Buy today, on the drop.

  • derrybderryb Posts: 30,376 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 4, 2020 7:43AM

    Swapping one asset for another (cash in the case of this discussion) when planning an estate can have serious profit implications if one does not understand the tax implications. My deceased father-in-law once asked if he should sell his rental property before he died and give the money to his kids. I advised him not to. Had he done so he would have paid tens of thousands in capital gains taxes upon the sale, since he owned the property for decades. By waiting and letting the kids sell the inherited property at the new cost basis (at little to no profit) those tens of thousands went into their pockets.

    This point is not an effort to steer the discussion away from the OP's question. It is an effort to provide him and others important information that has a big effect on how they proceed to answer that question.

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  • TPGSTPGS Posts: 73 ✭✭✭

    I traded my generic PCGS/NGC MS64/63 Walker 50c / Morgan 1$ hoard. Traded them all to my LCS for silver, mainly 90% Walker 50c and some silver hockey pucks.
    I am happy I did.

  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 9,035 ✭✭✭✭✭

    People say the spread on some bullion is too wide :D

    bullion has a spot price at least , on numismatic items there are only nonsense valuations and unless you are a dealer you can't get those so plan on being taken to the cleaners when you exit.

    the correct answer is , unless you are a dealer or don't mind losing everything don't buy numismatic coins in the first place

  • derrybderryb Posts: 30,376 ✭✭✭✭✭

    higher premiums for coins are present on both sides of the trade. Even the mint charges a $2.50 premium to wholesalers for it's bullion ASEs. Anyone who sells a numismatic PM coin for spot is either desperate or a fool.

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  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 9,035 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:
    higher premiums for coins are present on both sides of the trade. Even the mint charges a $2.50 premium to wholesalers for it's bullion ASEs. Anyone who sells a numismatic PM coin for spot is either desperate or a fool.

    wait im talking about real garbage like rainbow toned 64 nickles , not proof ases. OP did you mean slabbed bullion?

    Baley no , I don't mean your 1795 quarter type stuff :#

    i mean the pump and dump widgets dujour , the conditional rarities . the crass vomit the big dealers churn back and forth endlessly without shame

    if you have been victimized by kevin whats his twit and his horde of homeless line standers on a gold kennedy half its over , just move on and trade that for bullion today . even at 1900$ spot would you be even on one of those yet ?

    are we talking real honest to dog rare coins or modern slabbed dreck sold for imaginary catalog values ?

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 39,301 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bronco2078 said:
    Baley no , I don't mean your 1795 quarter type stuff :#

    That would be a really rare coin. ;)

  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,146 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:
    @bronco2078 said:
    Baley no , I don't mean your 1795 quarter type stuff :#

    That would be a really rare coin. ;)

    They won't be for long, Not after "Dan" cranks them out in quantity.. 🤨

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 9,035 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:

    @bronco2078 said:
    Baley no , I don't mean your 1795 quarter type stuff :#

    That would be a really rare coin. ;)

    i meant to say quarter disme ;)

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 20,694 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Lots of excellent observations & discussion here, especially this:

    Also, the inherited asset (bullion) will get a new basis (cost) at time of inheritance - its basis will become the current value at time of inheritance. If liquidated at time of inheritance the sale price will be very close to the newly established basis resulting in little taxable profit. This is a good example why it's best to not liquidate an asset before death if the proceeds are going to go to the heirs; best to leave them the asset that they can sell at close to zero profit because of the newly established basis.

    The problem with heirs is that they may not have any appreciation of either collectibles OR precious metal bullion. It may be a good idea not to sell much, but to leave a list of reputable coin and/or bullion dealers with whom you've had favorable dealings - even to the extent of making introductions over time.

    Also, collectible coins tend to benefit from a rise in precious metals as collectibles start to gain visibility in the marketplace. That process takes some time if a bull market in commodities & metals is ongoing, but it should be considered and heirs should be advised to pay attention.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • DrBusterDrBuster Posts: 4,337 ✭✭✭✭

    I assume we're not talking about millions of dollars worth of coins. That being the case, the inheritance tax implications should be zero.

  • derrybderryb Posts: 30,376 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2020 11:07AM

    @DrBuster said:
    I assume we're not talking about millions of dollars worth of coins. That being the case, the inheritance tax implications should be zero.

    four federal taxes involved with a death or inheritance.

    1. Final income tax return for the deceased.

    2. Income tax return for the estate or trust if the estate or trust generated more than $600 gross annual income. This is normally achieved through the continued collection of rents or earning interest/investment gains after death and before distribution or sale of assets by the estate to convert them to cash that will go to the heirs. This is a tax on income between death of the taxpayer and distribution/dissolution of assets.

    3. An Estate Tax Return based on the total value of the estate which currently excludes estate valued at less than 11.4 billion.

    4. Income tax on capital gains from the sale of an inherited asset after it is received by an heir. This tax is paid by the heir.

    There may also be state taxes involved.

    You are referring to number 3 above. This does not remove the responsibility of complying with numbers 1, 2 and 4 above.

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  • Downtown1974Downtown1974 Posts: 5,470 ✭✭✭✭✭

    For the reasons stated above, I have made up my mind to live forever.

  • derrybderryb Posts: 30,376 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Better to not be the executor.

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  • dpooledpoole Posts: 5,770 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Downtown1974 said:
    For the reasons stated above, I have made up my mind to live forever.

    This.

    Staying alive is far less complicated.

  • AzurescensAzurescens Posts: 2,507 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2020 5:45PM

    @CoinHoarder said:
    I am getting up there in age. My family has no interest in coins. I can count the number of times that I have sold a coin on one hand.

    Has anybody here, sold their numismatic or collectible coins, and bought bullion with the money?

    I was thinking that it would be better to leave bullion to my family, rather than coins. This way the value could be easily tracked by daily spot, and cashed in whenever my heir(s) decide to do so. A much more liquid option.

    I am very interested in any suggestions or experiences you may have had.

    Thank you for your input on this matter.

    Yep! Liquidated coins of super value awhile ago and reinvested in gold and silver and it went through the roof. Made a killing. Not saying you will but having bullion as a hedge against the world right now is a good idea.

    We aren't supposed to talk politics or current events here. I recommend doing all this sooner than later.

    Check out the links below but be safe. Misinformation is everywhere so trust nothing.

    Reddit.com/r/denmark
    Reddit.com/r/spain
    Reddit.com/r/coronavirus
    Reddit.com/r/preppers
    Reddit.com/r/PrepperIntel
    Reddit.com/r/china_flu
    Reddit.com/r/economics

    That being said. Sell em all yesterday. Otherwise they're gonna be like stamps, which is basically what was happening last year before all this kicked off. Gold at melt in OGH, gold that sat for weeks even at reasonable prices.

  • Dave99BDave99B Posts: 6,988 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think this makes complete sense, especially when none of the heirs have any interest in numismatic material.

    No one knows your coins, and their value, better than you. Selling them yourself, over time, should help maximize the value. No one will complain when you leave them a big stack of glittering gold! You'll be a hero!

    Dave

    Always looking for original, better date VF20-VF35 Barber quarters and halves, and a quality beer.
  • chesterbchesterb Posts: 734 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:
    Between now and when the heirs receive their inheritance what will the purchasing power of cash collected today from the sale of the coins be worth at the time of inheritance? And what will the bullion bought today with the sold coins be worth at the time of inheritance. Bullion wins, hands down. The longer the OP lives the more the bullion will win over the cash.

    The way the economy, and the dollar are going, bullion bought now will be worth much more in the future than dollars bought now. This is a good example of how PMs are in fact a store of value. It is also a good example of how PMs are dollar insurance.

    Also, the inherited asset (bullion) will get a new basis (cost) at time of inheritance - its basis will become the current value at time of inheritance. If liquidated at time of inheritance the sale price will be very close to the newly established basis resulting in little taxable profit. This is a good example why it's best to not liquidate an asset before death if the proceeds are going to go to the heirs; best to leave them the asset that they can sell at close to zero profit because of the newly established basis.

    The heirs will have no trouble getting current market value for their bullion either immediately or over a stretched out period of time. As stated the future value of bullion should greatly outperform the future value of depreciating dollars. Each of my kids are going to be able to cash in a tube of ASEs every month for at least 20 years - a nice little supplemental retirement gift from Pop.

    Do you think bullion is a better long term asset than the S&P 500? That's not an argumentative question. Im just curious why not invest the same amount into the stock market.

  • derrybderryb Posts: 30,376 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 15, 2020 7:03AM

    @chesterb said:

    Do you think bullion is a better long term asset than the S&P 500? That's not an argumentative question. Im just curious why not invest the same amount into the stock market.

    On 6/30/2020 (latest data I could find) the book value or net asset value of the S&P was $901.97. At that time the S&P 500 was selling for $3,585.15. Seems to be a lot more "hope" pegged to the S&P 500 than there is to gold. Like gold, equities tend to keep up with inflation. However their current value has placed them in an extremely large bubble.

    Fundamentals, as well as current and ongoing dollar destruction, tell me your answer is gold, hands down.

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