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How to identify a counterfeit Trade Dollar?

jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,155 ✭✭✭✭✭

Not wanting to steal another's post regarding a counterfeit Trade Dollar, I thought I would list my own Counterfeit Trade Dollar and what I see as key variances in a real $TD. I hope others can show theirs with the differences and maybe gather enough information as to make us all better at identifying these bogus coins. My 1873 CC fake is actually heavier at 27.4 grams than the 27.2 grams of an actual $TD. Still, it has a concrete look to the finish, the numbers in the date look different compared to an actual $TD, the eagle's eye, while open, has what I consider a snood above the eye rather than below the eye, the CC lettering looks quite different. I am sure their are many different things I am missing but enough to know it not to be real. I hope someone will point out all the differences of this counterfeit and others that are posted.
Jim


When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain

Comments

  • truebloodtrueblood Posts: 609 ✭✭✭✭

    When learning, like in any series, I like to use PCGS COINFACTS and compare photos side by side. Just a whole lot easier, where everything will jump out at you and one will be embarrassed by how easy it is to detect typically. However some of the fakes are damn good and one must take their time deciphering.

  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,155 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That's exactly where I get my comparison photos.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
  • OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 3,713 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 21, 2020 11:19AM

    The reverse type is incorrect, which is the most obvious tell.

    In general, this one is obvious but many are very good fakes. My suggestion for anyone wanting to develop their skills detecting fakes is to look at as many real ones as possible. CoinFacts is, I mean used to be, a great resource for doing this.

  • TradesWithChopsTradesWithChops Posts: 640 ✭✭✭✭

    The way to tell a counterfeit trade dollar is by a lady being on the front, and the words "trade dollar" on the back :D

    Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
    More Than It's Chopped Up To Be

  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,155 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 21, 2020 12:44PM

    @OriginalDan The reverse type is incorrect, which is the most obvious tell.

    Isn't this a type 1 reverse which it should be for an 1873 CC Trade Dollar? It has the xtra berry under the claw and the arrowhead ends over the 0 in 420. Am I wrong? I thought the reverse was well made except the CC, at least from a novice point of view.
    The obverse had several things that I mentioned but was the correct type 1. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
  • Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 8,624 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Our host has excellent images to study and learn from. Some of us have well known reference books on this subject. Either way knowledge is power that I can carry forward to the next coin. Peace Roy

    BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52

  • TradesWithChopsTradesWithChops Posts: 640 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 21, 2020 12:50PM

    @jesbroken said:
    @OriginalDan The reverse type is incorrect, which is the most obvious tell.

    Isn't this a type 1 reverse which it should be for an 1873 CC Trade Dollar? It has the xtra berry under the claw and the arrowhead ends over the 0 in 420. Am I wrong? I thought the reverse was well made except the CC, at least from a novice point of view.
    The obverse had several things that I mentioned but was the correct type 1. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
    Jim

    What @OriginalDan is referring to is that specific mint mark doesnt exist on any known genuine dollars from '73. also, it is poorly reflective of genuine dollars. If you compare a genuine '73-cc to this one, blown up, you will see the details are lazy. What I mean by lazy, is that they are a crude representation - easily identifiable as false.

    Yes, it is reflective of "type 1" -- which is the only "type" of that year. But, there were a limited number of dies prepared, and they are all known. This is not one of them.

    E.g.: the leaves look bad, the feathers look bad, the lettering looks bad, the curvature of the lettering is off. [theres more problems, but i dont think we need more than what I listed?]

    Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
    More Than It's Chopped Up To Be

  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,155 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TradesWithChops

    Thanks TWC, that explains it better for me to separate the two types that also must count for the types of dies also used. What is the best book or for at least a useable learning tool for Trade Dollars?
    Again, I thank you for your assistance.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
  • TradesWithChopsTradesWithChops Posts: 640 ✭✭✭✭

    @jesbroken said:
    @TradesWithChops

    Thanks TWC, that explains it better for me to separate the two types that also must count for the types of dies also used. What is the best book or for at least a useable learning tool for Trade Dollars?
    Again, I thank you for your assistance.
    Jim

    Honestly, for me, looking at genuine coins and having friends. Books have not helped me on the subject.

    People on this forum are great

    Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
    More Than It's Chopped Up To Be

  • OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 3,713 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jesbroken said:
    @OriginalDan The reverse type is incorrect, which is the most obvious tell.

    Isn't this a type 1 reverse which it should be for an 1873 CC Trade Dollar? It has the xtra berry under the claw and the arrowhead ends over the 0 in 420. Am I wrong? I thought the reverse was well made except the CC, at least from a novice point of view.
    The obverse had several things that I mentioned but was the correct type 1. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
    Jim

    Actually I’m wrong on this. I glanced and thought it was a 78-CC. Still a very obvious fake, and this same fake reverse is known on 77/78 which is impossible, but in this case they got lucky and it is possible for this date.

  • TradesWithChopsTradesWithChops Posts: 640 ✭✭✭✭

    @OriginalDan said:

    @jesbroken said:
    @OriginalDan The reverse type is incorrect, which is the most obvious tell.

    Isn't this a type 1 reverse which it should be for an 1873 CC Trade Dollar? It has the xtra berry under the claw and the arrowhead ends over the 0 in 420. Am I wrong? I thought the reverse was well made except the CC, at least from a novice point of view.
    The obverse had several things that I mentioned but was the correct type 1. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
    Jim

    Actually I’m wrong on this. I glanced and thought it was a 78-CC. Still a very obvious fake, and this same fake reverse is known on 77/78 which is impossible, but in this case they got lucky and it is possible for this date.

    Yep. I've seen that exact reverse on an "1878"

    Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
    More Than It's Chopped Up To Be

  • keojkeoj Posts: 980 ✭✭✭

    This one is very obvious. Some are fiendishly deceptive. I have sent several back to PCGS as fakes and each of those took a lot of hard looks and comparatives to ascertain that it was not genuine. The quick answer is:

    • Validation of type I/Ii obverse and reverse combos. Example: No type I reverse after 77. No type II reverse prior to 75. And so on.
    • Validation of field surfaces and features for flaws or characteristics that are not correct.
    • Validation of date/mintmark features (Contacts & Auction searches) Example: There are only three reverse dies for a 76-cc I/I. Example: two master reverse dies for 76 I/I.
    • Validation of weight (basic but good!)
    • There are more advanced tells than these.

    And after all of these, some fakes are just very hard to discern.

    Keoj

  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,155 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 21, 2020 9:59PM

    What book is available with this die information? I was hoping this post would allow many posters to show their counterfeit $TD's and allow the many different types to be visible in one spot.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
  • keojkeoj Posts: 980 ✭✭✭

    In process :)

  • mbogomanmbogoman Posts: 5,112 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I look forward to that publication.... Keep us posted. Cheers, RickO

  • TradesWithChopsTradesWithChops Posts: 640 ✭✭✭✭

    @keoj said:
    In process :)

    Version 1 would be great. Youd instantly sell it out!

    Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
    More Than It's Chopped Up To Be

  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,155 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Early next year or later?
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
  • keojkeoj Posts: 980 ✭✭✭

    There are days that I would like to be let go to allow me time to finish it up. If anyone would like a draft sample chapter, please let me know.

    Keoj

  • CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,368 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • kazkaz Posts: 9,052 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,155 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @kaz Thanks, Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain

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