This coin crossed but I was surprised when it came back I

bidask

PCGS 64 crossed with the SP designation.

Boosibri

Were you thinking proof?

brg5658

PCGS has a fetish with using the SP designation. Almost every medal from BHM they deem a "specimen" for some reason. They seem to have no good or consistent explanation for how they determine SP either.

LochNESS

Nearly everything from King Norton mint [that I've seen] has the SP des.

bidask

@Boosibri said:
Were you thinking proof?

Outside chance

SYRACUSIAN

@brg5658 said:
PCGS has a fetish with using the SP designation. Almost every medal from BHM they deem a "specimen" for some reason. They seem to have no good or consistent explanation for how they determine SP either.

I’ll totally agree... In modern Greek coins (19th century), all of NGC PR or CAM or UCAM or not, cross to PCGS SP. The most flagrant example that I can think of, is a $70-$100K coin now, a Greek 1833-ο (οf the owl variety, a small owl added to very specific and most expensive silver coins struck in Athens’s first mint, by king Otto, son of Otto in Bavaria, no longer standing, where several of these coins were struck after a simple visit by any individual who had to pay the nominal value of a specific denomination and year, mostly in the 1840s, in silver, and his coin would be struck then and there in a short time. Which makes so many of them so rare, otherwise these coins had a very small mintage to begin with, and then supply would follow demand piece by piece.

But not this coin which was specially minted ten years after its date , 1843 instead of a 1833 circulation piece , Munich mint or Paris Mint (A mm) , at first as a presentation piece sold in 2000 at a Stack’s auction for $23K , raw and mislabeled as a Munich proof, but as Vicken, a Stack employee had told me, it only takes two to bid it up and they wouldn’t make a change in the catalogues, raw, then certified by the winner as 1833(o) NGC PF5CAM , it only changed hands once since, by private treaty, at $65K, and now resides in a PCGS SP65 holder, a totally wrong designation, worth $70-100K because it is unique ,but the new owner happens to be the main representative PCGS dealer in Athens, so he seems to not care one bit.

The first Athens mint established in 1836 and by the previous king, (Otto, his young portait in the above coin) , whose Bavarian dynasty and himself were ousted was mainly producing the yearly copper denominations and little silver, some on decree and some on demand of private citizens. Other circulation crowns of the type 1833(o) were struck too, as in 1844 and the most elusive 1845. The mint was abandoned by the new Danish king who tripled eventually the size of the country, King George I and who had all his coins struck in Paris.

Such as the same owner’s 1875-A A 5 drs silver, ex NGC PR65UCAM, (struck in Paris), UNIQUE, now in a PCGS SP66 holder, gone are the cameo etc., but one grade higher for consolation. If I find an image of this, I’ll post it too.

For lack of THAT image, I’ll post my 1875-A MS63 , bought raw from Stack’s 20 years ago, from a FIXED price list, no image, at $750 , now worth well in excess of $6000...., just so that we know which king we’re talking about. So below is (Danish born) King George I who replaced Bavarian King Otto, in a circulation silver crown in choice unc, but not the unique PR65UCAM that my friend and PCGS authorized dealer crossed to PCGS SP66.

(PCGS MS63 imaged by Phil before he got the job as Trueviewer)

And then you come across some real PCGS PR65-66 coins of the same period, (1868-1915) and you say what’s going on here? If these are labelled proof, you cannot label SP the above 1833(o) 5 drs, or the 1875-A SP66 ex NGC PR65 UCAM with évident cameos ,.... murky waters, incredible and ultra rare to unique coins ,all of them, including the... SPs... All these during the 1868-1915 period that Paris was striking Greek and Cretan coins, AND during King Otto’s reign, in 1832-1863.

Another interesting fact is that the 1836 Athens mint, long gone, was standing impressive n a square, called the square of tears, plateia Klafthmonos, ,for the tears, « Klafthmoi in ancient and modern formal Greek »,that took its name from the tears people were shedding after frequenting a certain gambling institution built there for a while,also no longer standing, in a place that very few of today’s « Athenians » know why it is called like this even though it is dead center and facing the back entrance of the Bank of Greece ,its top branch in Athens in Stadiou street.

SYRACUSIAN

TTT for editing my last very long post, but really, enough with these PCGS SP designations when ATS they clearly label them PROOF if not PROOF CAM or UCAM....

SYRACUSIAN

@bidask said:
PCGS 64 crossed with the SP designation.

I had to look it up: Afghanistan 1960 gold 8 gr (?) PCGS SP64 pop 1, none higher? What does gr stand for? I thought that it was the weight if gold, is it?

And if it’s KN mint, did you purchase it from Karl Stephens or gmarguli who’s been selling a lot of these lately? (I myself got a Ceylon one cent 1926 SP66 RD and an Egyptian 1935-H , Fuad, 1 mil SP65 RB) the latter I used to own 15 years ago in PCGS SP66RB but from the Heaton mint.

bidask

I don’t remember where I bought this coin
and don’t know much about .
I remember liking the look when I first saw it in NGC holder as MS 64

I liked you post above very informative thank you .