1921-s buffalo nickel, is it Very Fine or just Fine?
BUFFNIXX
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Checkout this graded 1921-s buffalo nickel and let all know if you think it is Very Fine or just Fine? There has been controversy
with this grade since the 1960ies when the Brown and Dunn grading book came out which said that a VF buffalo nickel had to
have a full horn. This one obviously does not have a full horn but rather a “fool” horn! Opinions please.
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
0
Comments
I would call it fine, but I am not surprised it is graded VF as I have seen others similar to it graded VF
Looks 'fine' to me... However, as noted, the difference between the two is a gray area....not surprised at VF and arguing the point is futile. Cheers, RickO
Probably as far as overall wear goes, a minimal vf , but IMO and always has been a F+. The price guide jump on those dates like 21-s, 24-s, 26-s and others from F to VF are because a full horn is needed to grade VF and has been for years and years. But over several years the grading services has relied less on this , and more on overall wear pattern.
Gut and unfiltered opinion
The observe looks better than average for the date...it has a bold date that carries the grade... Regardless if you are at a 15 or VF20. To me, it has the look of being enhanced as the surfaces just do not look natural for the level of wear. I taking a careful look at the surfaces, they are just not what I would want. This is a judgment call and I find myself at 15 and not 20 mainly because of the surfaces.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I think the feather lines and the knot pushes it to VF20. I think it would cross. PCGS Photograde I believe would agree. Then, that's just my opinion.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
I agree that F-15 would be closer than VF-20.
I believe that the grade was given for the obverse strike as the reverse usually is weak to begin with and this is no exception. Hard to find any with a really decent strike on both the obverse and reverse, one is almost always better on one side than the other from either worn dies or strike pressure to save or extend the life of the dies.
F15, probably burnished, net VG8.
While as to actual wear it maybe a VF20...to me it's worth F15 money.
Even though it does not have a full horn, all other wear points show it to be a VF and graded correctly. Now, would I pay full VF money, no. To get the price jump from F to VF It should have a full horn. Anything less will command a lower price. One a side note it seems any 21-s, 24-s or 26-s with a real showing the tip full horn VF gets bumped to VF35 to XF nowadays and priced above the VF money.
Silverman68, jfoot13, GAB, ricman, Smittys, scrapman1077, RyGuy, Connecticoin, Meltdown, VikingDude, Peaceman, Patches and more.
I viewed 12 or so PCGS 1921 S VF20 Buffalo Nickels on ebay. Only 1 had 80% of a horn the rest no better than the op's.
Here are a few of them. Ebay auction numbers available to any who would wish them. The last pic was the best IMO.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
BTW, Here are two that sold in July and August of this year for $267 and $275. I could not believe it.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
This has me really curious. Does anyone have a photo of a pcgs vf20 Buffalo Nickel with a full horn? I've now researched VF25 with no full horns and VF30's that are debatable. Where does the full horn requirement originate? Is it in the last 30 years or so or older? Here are a few more pics?
VF25
VF30
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
NGC obviously graded the coin by the obverse, which isn't bad (top feather detail better than average). Central knot detail is sharp, as all are for this date alone.
There looks to be way too much wear on the reverse for the coin to be a 20. Look how much wear is on Black Diamonds hip. I believe it to be excessive for a VF Buff. There just seems to be too little horn there for a VF grade.
Compare the wear to the hip and horn on the other pics.
I don't believe the coin is any better than a F-15.
Pete
Check this out.....................
This is an NGC-F15
Pete
It's hard to argue a Buffalo nickel grade with a guy named @BuffaloIronTail especially when it come to the tail
However in this case, to me, it looks like a really poor strike vs. wear. I'm not saying it shouldn't be an F-15 grade but it looks like the hindquarters suffer from a flat strike. My 2¢ piece only.
@ricko nailed it !
15 here.
VF20 looks a little too high to me.
In my opinion it's a Fine12. The obverse shows a F12 level of wear IMO. The '21-S had striking issues but not to the extent that many other Mint marked dates from the era do.
The "horn thing" has been around at least since the Brown and Dunn grading system has been in use. i.e. since at least the late 50s. Since so many coins of this type only showed a weak horn at best (many had little to no horn at all) to begin with that feature should never been used at all. IMO the obverse only should have been used. But the horn was a simple design feature that ultimately came to be used.
Maybe the grading services are grading this series from AG to VF by the obverse only. And maybe that's the way it should be.
I think this is what's happening.
And if the rev is really weak, knock a grade off.
I agree with koynekwest, its only a fine 12.
Could not believe the grade this coin got.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Agree that the original coin appears over graded a bit.
Interesting theories about the services primarily grading by the obverse....I wonder if that’s true.
My personal viewpoint is that a VF should have most of the horn showing, say two thirds or so, like some of the examples posted by jesbroken.
Anyone shopping for better dates with full horns these days better be looking at coins in minimum VF 35 holders.
I am in the 15 camp.
The reverse of the coin may have some striking issues but it is WORN to the grade of Fine12 at best. The head and hip show extensive wear. It would qualify as a VG under yesterday's standards. Pricing used to show a huge jump from Fine to VF as coins with that last 1/3 of a horn were scarce for some dates/Mints. I guess that's no longer the case.
The partial horn has been a thing forever.
That coin doesn't even have great eye appeal. hard to explain that one.