Patterns really fascinate me, but demand and pricing is still somewhat mysterious and a little intimidating as a novice in the area. Still decided to play in the very shallow end and picked up this MS-66+ BN CAC piece that is tied for finest known. Between that and the Simpson pedigree, I figured there can’t be too much downside and it’s going to be a really fun coin to own. Had a couple other pieces I was really interested in, and am still kicking myself this morning for not bidding one increment higher on another pattern half that was stunning.
Patterns really fascinate me, but demand and pricing is still somewhat mysterious and a little intimidating as a novice in the area. Still decided to play in the very shallow end and picked up this MS-66+ BN CAC piece that is tied for finest known. Between that and the Simpson pedigree, I figured there can’t be too much downside and it’s going to be a really fun coin to own. Had a couple other pieces I was really interested in, and am still kicking myself this morning for not bidding one increment higher on another pattern half that was stunning.
Patterns really fascinate me, but demand and pricing is still somewhat mysterious and a little intimidating as a novice in the area. Still decided to play in the very shallow end and picked up this MS-66+ BN CAC piece that is tied for finest known. Between that and the Simpson pedigree, I figured there can’t be too much downside and it’s going to be a really fun coin to own.
The patterns that I would have been interested in at one time brought strong money.
The 1856 S3 P67+ brought $240K - I'd call that strong money, especially since the PR S3's bring less than the ones in MS holders.
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
I bought a fair number of the patterns. I'll post some of them over the course of the day.
First, the 1867 Quarter in copper. It's beautiful and one of only 5 pieces struck and was priced reasonably and all that, but it was of special interest to me because the first pattern I ever bought was one of these. (I bought it from a Bobby Hughes ad in Coin World in 1973 for $495 with my Bar Mitzvah money. It was red when I got it, but quickly turned splotchy and spotted red brown over the course of the next year. I learned a valuable lesson, sold it ASAP and moved on.) I also remember getting the 1976 Garrett catalog in the mail and (IIRC) the last lot in the auction was an 1867 proof set in copper. I lusted after that set, but it was way beyond my means at the time. So now, buying what is probably the finest known example for a mere $4400 plus the juice gave me a nice little rush.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Here's one that I bought for a client. Although it's not quite as much fun to buy coins for other people as it is to buy them for my own collection, it sure beats delivering newspapers or flipping burgers for a living. (Yes, those were my previous short-lived "careers".)
1877 pattern half dollars are a special love of mine. I started collecting them in 1981 when I bought several at the Bowers & Ruddy sale of the Rudy Sieck collection. In fact, 1877 pattern half dollars were the only thing I seriously collected in the 80's. I sold the collection in 1989 in a rare moment of dispassionate reason and have regretted it ever since. Now, I'm helping a client build a similar collection, so I can't even think about collecting them for myself.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Here's an intriguing one. It's the first pattern 20 cent piece, struck on an extra thick aluminum planchet. (A normal thickness version also exists.) I like it because it's a completely legitimate pattern, not a concoction made for collectors. I'm also intrigued by the mysterious variance in planchet weights. My gut tells me that there's a good reason for it, but so far I'm clueless. BTW, it looks way better in hand than in the image.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@MrEureka said:
I bought a fair number of the patterns. I'll post some of them over the course of the day.
First, the 1867 Quarter in copper. It's beautiful and one of only 5 pieces struck and was priced reasonably and all that, but it was of special interest to me because the first pattern I ever bought was one of these. (I bought it from a Bobby Hughes ad in Coin World in 1973 for $495 with my Bar Mitzvah money. It was red when I got it, but quickly turned splotchy and spotted red brown over the course of the next year. I learned a valuable lesson, sold it ASAP and moved on.) I also remember getting the 1976 Garrett catalog in the mail and (IIRC) the last lot in the auction was an 1867 proof set in copper. I lusted after that set, but it was way beyond my means at the time. So now, buying what is probably the finest known example for a mere $4400 plus the juice gave me a nice little rush.
I assuming you all participated in Heritage Live auction on line? Since the shut down I have expected Heritage and other large auction houses were well positioned to host a major auction like the SIMPSON through the net only. I have not read stats on participation but after watching entire Simpson Pattern sale on line it appeared well viewed and most likely just as active as when they conduct one at a Major show location. I believe almost all the pieces had a live bid placed and in and looking at the final prices posted at USPATTERN.COM all sold.
In any case I did bid live and picked up a couple including the J-1649 1$ ... not sure why that was not CAC as it looks great in hand.
A couple that I were very interested in I quit bidding when it hit a stroke above my pinch point ... and of course they were then hammered.
Looking forward the next rounds especially the Jan auction
OMG ... My Mother was Right about Everything!
I wake up with a Good Attitude Every Day. Then … Idiots Happen!
@DrewU said:
Patterns really fascinate me, but demand and pricing is still somewhat mysterious and a little intimidating as a novice in the area.
Hang out long enough and you'll figure out there are 2 classes of patterns. Those in very high demand and almost never available and those with low demand that are almost always available. The first class are rare and very enjoyable to look at and hard to find.
@MrEureka said:
Here's one that I bought for a client. Although it's not quite as much fun to buy coins for other people as it is to buy them for my own collection, it sure beats delivering newspapers or flipping burgers for a living. (Yes, those were my previous short-lived "careers".)
1877 pattern half dollars are a special love of mine. I started collecting them in 1981 when I bought several at the Bowers & Ruddy sale of the Rudy Sieck collection. In fact, 1877 pattern half dollars were the only thing I seriously collected in the 80's. I sold the collection in 1989 in a rare moment of dispassionate reason and have regretted it ever since. Now, I'm helping a client build a similar collection, so I can't even think about collecting them for myself.
Congrats on a great pick up. The 1877 half dollars are a favorite of mine as well. They can be an incredible collection when viewed together!
Here's the TrueView of Barber's Liberty. This has a great provenance going all the way. back to William H. Woodin, Waldo Newcomer and Col. E.H.R. Green, eventually being picked up by. Bass, Simpson and now. you and. your client
@DrewU said:
Patterns really fascinate me, but demand and pricing is still somewhat mysterious and a little intimidating as a novice in the area.
Hang out long enough and you'll figure out there are 2 classes of patterns. Those in very high demand and almost never available and those with low demand that are almost always available. The first class are rare and very enjoyable to look at.
Funny, but not completely true. Some of the most popular and in demand patterns come up for auction pretty regularly. (1858 Indian and Flying Eagle Cent patterns come to mind.) And there are many extremely rare pieces that are rarely available, and hardly anyone cares when they do turn up. (Consider R-8 Standard Silver patterns.)
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@DrewU said:
Patterns really fascinate me, but demand and pricing is still somewhat mysterious and a little intimidating as a novice in the area.
Hang out long enough and you'll figure out there are 2 classes of patterns. Those in very high demand and almost never available and those with low demand that are almost always available. The first class are rare and very enjoyable to look at.
Funny, but not completely true. Some of the most popular and in demand patterns come up for auction pretty regularly. (1858 Indian and Flying Eagle Cent patterns come to mind.) And there are many extremely rare pieces that are rarely available, and hardly anyone cares when they do turn up. (Consider R-8 Standard Silver patterns.)
I'd add that the ones that seem to be higher demand tend to show up on places like Heritage and the ones I view as having less demand are the ones that languish on eBay. It may certainly be true that the in demand ones show up on Heritage with some regularity but they are not always available like th eones that sit on eBay for a long time.
Demand is a funny concept especially in pattern collecting. I agree with MrEureka (Andy) in his comment that some High R.7 and even R.8 pieces may go for a comparative song. But it only takes 2 in an auction to generate what might be viewed as “High Demand” when similar pieces might have generated a different price level just years earlier. I did pick up the Lincoln 5 CENT copper pattern J- 487 ... and I paid a high price (much more than I planned) but then again I did want this singular design “TYPE” of a 5 Cent pattern for a while. Even though it is a Low R.7 … it's seldom on the market. Simpson does have sister pieces coming up in the later sales but I decided to go for it now and not leave it up to chance in missing out later. I did pass on other similar pieces in auctions in past years and regretted in not bidding higher. I had this pattern on my bucket list for some time and even tried to hit Heritage “make offer to owner program” for a Newman example with no luck. In any case, no regrets, I am excited to own this pattern.
PS: I like to compare web images of current auction items that I am interested in to track if in a previous auction and not referenced. Since most patterns have low populations it is interesting to see the number I have tracked that have been crossed over. I believe the J-487 I purchased from Simpson was the same 2001 NGC graded coin in Heritage 2001 auction … big difference in price levels in 2001
OMG ... My Mother was Right about Everything!
I wake up with a Good Attitude Every Day. Then … Idiots Happen!
@retirednow said:
I did pick up the Lincoln 5 CENT copper pattern J- 487 ... and I paid a high price (much more than I planned) but then again I did want this singular design “TYPE” of a 5 Cent pattern for a while.
Great pattern! Congrats! Do you know any of the provenance before Simpson?
It’s great to see this from 1866, given that it would be almost 50 years before a President got on a coin I wonder if in all that time people were wishing for a move from Lady Liberty to Presidents. There are Washington patterns from the era as well. It’s nice to study patterns to get insight into the coin thoughts and directions at the time.
I got one of the four coins that I was serious about. Under bid on one lot..... lost another due to internet connectivity issues (my internet sucks here in the cornfield!!) and got blown out of the water on another. Also bought one lot that was just selling too cheap. From now on I'll be using proxy bids
Wow! Just Wow! Beautiful and handsomely artistic pieces all, much, much more appealing than our current coinage, and scarce or downright rare. Some Patterns seem so undervalued to me, but I know people have been saying that for quite a long time.
@boiler78 said:
I got one of the four coins that I was serious about. Under bid on one lot..... lost another due to internet connectivity issues (my internet sucks here in the cornfield!!) and got blown out of the water on another. Also bought one lot that was just selling too cheap. From now on I'll be using proxy bids
@boiler78 said:
I got one of the four coins that I was serious about. Under bid on one lot..... lost another due to internet connectivity issues (my internet sucks here in the cornfield!!) and got blown out of the water on another. Also bought one lot that was just selling too cheap. From now on I'll be using proxy bids
J-1010 on my short list
J-763 impulse bid seemed too cheap
Congrats on your pickups! Good to be both successful with your core and opportunistic. It's good to get things inexpensively when they are available.
Great pattern! Congrats! Do you know any of the provenance before Simpson?
It’s great to see this from 1866, given that it would be almost 50 years before a President got on a coin I wonder if in all that time people were wishing for a move from Lady Liberty to Presidents. There are Washington patterns from the era as well. It’s nice to study patterns to get insight into the coin thoughts and directions at the time.
I only learn the Provenance if the Auction Houses repeat what is believed known. As I noted in my PS ... I do go back to compare photos from the major auction houses using the PCGS Auction records data base .. but that is only good if they have photos. In this piece I believe it was the same coin as in NGC holder back in 2001 but no names of previous owners when auctioned. I have tried to us the NEWMAN Portal search tools on HIgh R.7 pieces checking by Judd/ Pollock and the the AW reference #'s. I can locate references in sales and auction listings going back to the 20's but without a photos or a good and accurate description (which is rare) it is a dead end on actual owners
OMG ... My Mother was Right about Everything!
I wake up with a Good Attitude Every Day. Then … Idiots Happen!
@MrEureka said:
Here's an intriguing one. It's the first pattern 20 cent piece, struck on an extra thick aluminum planchet. (A normal thickness version also exists.) I like it because it's a completely legitimate pattern, not a concoction made for collectors. I'm also intrigued by the mysterious variance in planchet weights. My gut tells me that there's a good reason for it, but so far I'm clueless. BTW, it looks way better in hand than in the image.
If you don't know why it was made, how do you know it's legitimate? Is it mentioned in a list of Mint records?
Here's the provenance:
Gillispie Collection (Kagin's, 10/1984), lot 1215
Salisbury Collection (Bowers and Merena, 9/1994), lot 959
@MrEureka said:
Here's an intriguing one. It's the first pattern 20 cent piece, struck on an extra thick aluminum planchet. (A normal thickness version also exists.) I like it because it's a completely legitimate pattern, not a concoction made for collectors. I'm also intrigued by the mysterious variance in planchet weights. My gut tells me that there's a good reason for it, but so far I'm clueless. BTW, it looks way better in hand than in the image.
If you don't know why it was made, how do you know it's legitimate? Is it mentioned in a list of Mint records?
Great question! The short answer is that we don't know. The long answer? We know the die combination is legitimate in the sense that the design and denomination were actually being considered, but we don't really know if the off metal strikes had a purposes beyond the collector market. However, to me, the thick and thin variants of the copper and aluminum pieces hint at an experimental purpose. My thinking is something like this. First, the production of thick and thin variants of patterns was extremely unusual, so it's unlikely that collectors were clamoring for such things at the time. Second, we know that the Mint recognized the possibility for people confusing 20 Cent pieces for quarters, which is presumably the reason why the 20's were struck with a plain edge. But early in the game, a year before the denomination went into production, it's possible that the Mint also considered using thickness as differentiator. Which may sound crazy when you think that a thick 20 Cent piece might have weighed as much as a quarter. But not so crazy when you consider that silver prices were sharply declining at the time. A lot of guesswork here, but my gut told me that I had to take the shot.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Boosibri
Posts: 12,049 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
I’ve got this one.
Is CoinTalk down?
Latin American Collection
None for me but I was watching this Mercury Dime Pattern. It sold in 2008 for $138,000.
This time it sold for $192,000!
https://coins.ha.com/itm/patterns/1916-10c-mercury-dime-judd-1984-pollock-2044-unique-pr64-pcgs-cac/a/1310-10347.s
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Well, I was the high underbidder on a lot.
Does that count?
Member ANA, SPMC, SCNA, FUN, CONECA
From what I saw, there was quite a few pieces that were available at heavily discounted prices. Especailly patterns.
https://images.pcgs.com/TrueView/40323259_Large.jpg
Patterns really fascinate me, but demand and pricing is still somewhat mysterious and a little intimidating as a novice in the area. Still decided to play in the very shallow end and picked up this MS-66+ BN CAC piece that is tied for finest known. Between that and the Simpson pedigree, I figured there can’t be too much downside and it’s going to be a really fun coin to own. Had a couple other pieces I was really interested in, and am still kicking myself this morning for not bidding one increment higher on another pattern half that was stunning.
I was looking at a couple beautifully toned SLQ's that went for total moon money. I got blown out very early in the bidding.
How much did you pay? I am super curious!
I was going to and then i realized that I'm a broke 16yo so that just would have been a waste of time.
@CalifornianKing Go to ha.com and open a free account. You can then see prices realized info.
this is how you collect. nicely done.
The patterns that I would have been interested in at one time brought strong money.
The 1856 S3 P67+ brought $240K - I'd call that strong money, especially since the PR S3's bring less than the ones in MS holders.
I bought a fair number of the patterns. I'll post some of them over the course of the day.
First, the 1867 Quarter in copper. It's beautiful and one of only 5 pieces struck and was priced reasonably and all that, but it was of special interest to me because the first pattern I ever bought was one of these. (I bought it from a Bobby Hughes ad in Coin World in 1973 for $495 with my Bar Mitzvah money. It was red when I got it, but quickly turned splotchy and spotted red brown over the course of the next year. I learned a valuable lesson, sold it ASAP and moved on.) I also remember getting the 1976 Garrett catalog in the mail and (IIRC) the last lot in the auction was an 1867 proof set in copper. I lusted after that set, but it was way beyond my means at the time. So now, buying what is probably the finest known example for a mere $4400 plus the juice gave me a nice little rush.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Awesome Andy. Great write up as well.
Latin American Collection
Here's one that I bought for a client. Although it's not quite as much fun to buy coins for other people as it is to buy them for my own collection, it sure beats delivering newspapers or flipping burgers for a living. (Yes, those were my previous short-lived "careers".)
1877 pattern half dollars are a special love of mine. I started collecting them in 1981 when I bought several at the Bowers & Ruddy sale of the Rudy Sieck collection. In fact, 1877 pattern half dollars were the only thing I seriously collected in the 80's. I sold the collection in 1989 in a rare moment of dispassionate reason and have regretted it ever since. Now, I'm helping a client build a similar collection, so I can't even think about collecting them for myself.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Love the Helmet head with IGWT and an eagle on both sides
Don't keep us in suspense forever! What did you get???
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Here's an intriguing one. It's the first pattern 20 cent piece, struck on an extra thick aluminum planchet. (A normal thickness version also exists.) I like it because it's a completely legitimate pattern, not a concoction made for collectors. I'm also intrigued by the mysterious variance in planchet weights. My gut tells me that there's a good reason for it, but so far I'm clueless. BTW, it looks way better in hand than in the image.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
What a wonderful specimen.
I assuming you all participated in Heritage Live auction on line? Since the shut down I have expected Heritage and other large auction houses were well positioned to host a major auction like the SIMPSON through the net only. I have not read stats on participation but after watching entire Simpson Pattern sale on line it appeared well viewed and most likely just as active as when they conduct one at a Major show location. I believe almost all the pieces had a live bid placed and in and looking at the final prices posted at USPATTERN.COM all sold.
In any case I did bid live and picked up a couple including the J-1649 1$ ... not sure why that was not CAC as it looks great in hand.
A couple that I were very interested in I quit bidding when it hit a stroke above my pinch point ... and of course they were then hammered.
Looking forward the next rounds especially the Jan auction
OMG ... My Mother was Right about Everything!
I wake up with a Good Attitude Every Day. Then … Idiots Happen!
Hang out long enough and you'll figure out there are 2 classes of patterns. Those in very high demand and almost never available and those with low demand that are almost always available. The first class are rare and very enjoyable to look at and hard to find.
Congrats on your pick up!
Congrats on a great pick up. The 1877 half dollars are a favorite of mine as well. They can be an incredible collection when viewed together!
Here's the TrueView of Barber's Liberty. This has a great provenance going all the way. back to William H. Woodin, Waldo Newcomer and Col. E.H.R. Green, eventually being picked up by. Bass, Simpson and now. you and. your client
Funny, but not completely true. Some of the most popular and in demand patterns come up for auction pretty regularly. (1858 Indian and Flying Eagle Cent patterns come to mind.) And there are many extremely rare pieces that are rarely available, and hardly anyone cares when they do turn up. (Consider R-8 Standard Silver patterns.)
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I'd add that the ones that seem to be higher demand tend to show up on places like Heritage and the ones I view as having less demand are the ones that languish on eBay. It may certainly be true that the in demand ones show up on Heritage with some regularity but they are not always available like th eones that sit on eBay for a long time.
Demand is a funny concept especially in pattern collecting. I agree with MrEureka (Andy) in his comment that some High R.7 and even R.8 pieces may go for a comparative song. But it only takes 2 in an auction to generate what might be viewed as “High Demand” when similar pieces might have generated a different price level just years earlier. I did pick up the Lincoln 5 CENT copper pattern J- 487 ... and I paid a high price (much more than I planned) but then again I did want this singular design “TYPE” of a 5 Cent pattern for a while. Even though it is a Low R.7 … it's seldom on the market. Simpson does have sister pieces coming up in the later sales but I decided to go for it now and not leave it up to chance in missing out later. I did pass on other similar pieces in auctions in past years and regretted in not bidding higher. I had this pattern on my bucket list for some time and even tried to hit Heritage “make offer to owner program” for a Newman example with no luck. In any case, no regrets, I am excited to own this pattern.
PS: I like to compare web images of current auction items that I am interested in to track if in a previous auction and not referenced. Since most patterns have low populations it is interesting to see the number I have tracked that have been crossed over. I believe the J-487 I purchased from Simpson was the same 2001 NGC graded coin in Heritage 2001 auction … big difference in price levels in 2001
OMG ... My Mother was Right about Everything!
I wake up with a Good Attitude Every Day. Then … Idiots Happen!
Great pattern! Congrats! Do you know any of the provenance before Simpson?
It’s great to see this from 1866, given that it would be almost 50 years before a President got on a coin I wonder if in all that time people were wishing for a move from Lady Liberty to Presidents. There are Washington patterns from the era as well. It’s nice to study patterns to get insight into the coin thoughts and directions at the time.
I got one of the four coins that I was serious about. Under bid on one lot..... lost another due to internet connectivity issues (my internet sucks here in the cornfield!!) and got blown out of the water on another. Also bought one lot that was just selling too cheap. From now on I'll be using proxy bids
J-1010 on my short list
J-763 impulse bid seemed too cheap
Wow! Just Wow! Beautiful and handsomely artistic pieces all, much, much more appealing than our current coinage, and scarce or downright rare. Some Patterns seem so undervalued to me, but I know people have been saying that for quite a long time.
Tom
Excellent pick ups!
My YouTube Channel
That 1869 is to die for.
Congrats on your pickups! Good to be both successful with your core and opportunistic. It's good to get things inexpensively when they are available.
Damn, these are some terrific coins and patterns. Maybe I should start coming here more often than I do on the Darkside! Congrats to all new buyers. 👍
myEbay
DPOTD 3
I only learn the Provenance if the Auction Houses repeat what is believed known. As I noted in my PS ... I do go back to compare photos from the major auction houses using the PCGS Auction records data base .. but that is only good if they have photos. In this piece I believe it was the same coin as in NGC holder back in 2001 but no names of previous owners when auctioned. I have tried to us the NEWMAN Portal search tools on HIgh R.7 pieces checking by Judd/ Pollock and the the AW reference #'s. I can locate references in sales and auction listings going back to the 20's but without a photos or a good and accurate description (which is rare) it is a dead end on actual owners
OMG ... My Mother was Right about Everything!
I wake up with a Good Attitude Every Day. Then … Idiots Happen!
If you don't know why it was made, how do you know it's legitimate? Is it mentioned in a list of Mint records?
Here's the provenance:
The interesting thing is neither Heritage description mentions the rim issue at 12 o'clock on the obverse, only mentioning the following:
Here's the cert link:
Here's the TrueView and slab photos.
Great question! The short answer is that we don't know. The long answer? We know the die combination is legitimate in the sense that the design and denomination were actually being considered, but we don't really know if the off metal strikes had a purposes beyond the collector market. However, to me, the thick and thin variants of the copper and aluminum pieces hint at an experimental purpose. My thinking is something like this. First, the production of thick and thin variants of patterns was extremely unusual, so it's unlikely that collectors were clamoring for such things at the time. Second, we know that the Mint recognized the possibility for people confusing 20 Cent pieces for quarters, which is presumably the reason why the 20's were struck with a plain edge. But early in the game, a year before the denomination went into production, it's possible that the Mint also considered using thickness as differentiator. Which may sound crazy when you think that a thick 20 Cent piece might have weighed as much as a quarter. But not so crazy when you consider that silver prices were sharply declining at the time. A lot of guesswork here, but my gut told me that I had to take the shot.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I picked up this Eagle...
Wondercoin