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Toned copper show & tell

YorkshiremanYorkshireman Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited August 29, 2020 7:07AM in World & Ancient Coins Forum

Got any toned copper? Show us. I’ll start.
1825 British farthing. Pop 6, none finer.

Yorkshireman,
Obsessed “Master Collector” of pieces of history.
Hunting for Latin American colonial portraits



Yorkshireman's Box of 20

Comments

  • ksammutksammut Posts: 966 ✭✭✭

    Nice example, Yorkshireman! I'll have to do some digging and see what I can come up with.

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  • scubafuelscubafuel Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very pretty copper! As scarce in Europe as it is at the US grading services?

    Sometimes I like to turn it around in my head and imagine that a new grading service starts in England.
    “US penny 1909 MS64 pop 3 none finer!”

    And everyone over here is thinking “Well, yeah, but...”

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  • YorkshiremanYorkshireman Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 29, 2020 10:36AM

    @rwyarmch said:

    Oh my goodness! That is beautiful.
    I may be a buyer if you’re ever a seller.

    Yorkshireman,
    Obsessed “Master Collector” of pieces of history.
    Hunting for Latin American colonial portraits



    Yorkshireman's Box of 20
  • brg5658brg5658 Posts: 2,306 ✭✭✭✭

    -Brandon
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
    My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

  • brg5658brg5658 Posts: 2,306 ✭✭✭✭

    -Brandon
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
    My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

  • brg5658brg5658 Posts: 2,306 ✭✭✭✭

    @Rexford said:
    PR64+BN

    @Rexford : Absolutely love this one :+1::heart:

    -Brandon
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
    My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

  • cachemancacheman Posts: 3,735 ✭✭✭
    edited August 30, 2020 11:25PM

    Here is one of my raw sets of Karl Goetz patterns.
    K-77, 1913, King Ludwig of Bavaria
    Set of 2mk - 3mk - 5mk - 10mk - 20mk encased in original box of issue.

  • ClioClio Posts: 118 ✭✭✭

    I'm sure I just posted this elsewhere but not going to miss a good excuse to share it again. Purchased off Rexford. Came in a small UNC "hoard" graded PCGS MS64BN

  • SYRACUSIANSYRACUSIAN Posts: 6,145 ✭✭✭

    Dimitri



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  • robp2robp2 Posts: 33 ✭✭✭

    @scubafuel said:

    >

    Sometimes I like to turn it around in my head and imagine that a new grading service starts in England.
    “US penny 1909 MS64 pop 3 none finer!”

    And everyone over here is thinking “Well, yeah, but...”

    I think that ship sailed years ago. It doesn't matter what TPG is involved; grading service, cataloguers, vendors, they are all hyping their own numbers. It's no different to someone in the US hyping up an MS65 1967 penny. Nothing better? Quite possibly until someone wants to waste hard earned cash slabbing some of the few million left lying around, but I can't think why anyone would bother other than for bragging rights. You can buy them in mint sealed £5 bags (1200 coins) for not much more than scrap.

  • YorkshiremanYorkshireman Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 1, 2020 8:35AM

    I think that ship sailed years ago. It doesn't matter what TPG is involved; grading service, cataloguers, vendors, they are all hyping their own numbers. It's no different to someone in the US hyping up an MS65 1967 penny. Nothing better? Quite possibly until someone wants to waste hard earned cash slabbing some of the few million left lying around, but I can't think why anyone would bother other than for bragging rights. You can buy them in mint sealed £5 bags (1200 coins) for not much more than scrap.

    Are you saying that you can buy mint bags of copper coins from the 1820’s for “not much more than scrap”.?
    Show me.

    Yorkshireman,
    Obsessed “Master Collector” of pieces of history.
    Hunting for Latin American colonial portraits



    Yorkshireman's Box of 20
  • robp2robp2 Posts: 33 ✭✭✭

    No. Nothing to do with G4 coppers. I was replying to scubafuel's derisive comments about imagining 'someone starting a new grading service in England and saying 1909 penny MS64 pop 3 none finer'. You've already got that in the US with some pitifully low populations of coins that are dirt cheap, dirt common, which thankfully most people haven't gone to the expense of getting slabbed, thus cutting down on plastic pollution. As I said, 1967 pennies spring to mind because someone on a different forum was happy his 1967 penny was in MS65. Apparently a population of 5 with none higher. You could only slab a handful of coins at most for the cost of a £5 face bag (10 or 11kgs of bronze).

  • YorkshiremanYorkshireman Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 1, 2020 10:50AM

    @robp2 said:
    No. Nothing to do with G4 coppers. I was replying to scubafuel's derisive comments about imagining 'someone starting a new grading service in England and saying 1909 penny MS64 pop 3 none finer'. You've already got that in the US with some pitifully low populations of coins that are dirt cheap, dirt common, which thankfully most people haven't gone to the expense of getting slabbed, thus cutting down on plastic pollution. As I said, 1967 pennies spring to mind because someone on a different forum was happy his 1967 penny was in MS65. Apparently a population of 5 with none higher. You could only slab a handful of coins at most for the cost of a £5 face bag (10 or 11kgs of bronze).

    Thanks. Sorry I misunderstood and man was I way off.
    Hope I didn’t come across as rude!

    Yorkshireman,
    Obsessed “Master Collector” of pieces of history.
    Hunting for Latin American colonial portraits



    Yorkshireman's Box of 20
  • Bob13Bob13 Posts: 720 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This thread is great - very nice examples above.

  • bidaskbidask Posts: 11,849 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • scubafuelscubafuel Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sorry if that came across as all snark. I was a US centric collector first and always wondered how US series were collected in other countries. Now that I’ve branched out a bit I sometimes have a sneaking suspicion that the world coins we value so highly here are not quite as amazing to collectors in their home country.
    Probably a question that belongs in its own thread though.

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  • YorkshiremanYorkshireman Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @scubafuel said:
    Sorry if that came across as all snark. I was a US centric collector first and always wondered how US series were collected in other countries. Now that I’ve branched out a bit I sometimes have a sneaking suspicion that the world coins we value so highly here are not quite as amazing to collectors in their home country.
    Probably a question that belongs in its own thread though.

    Very interesting idea.
    The international top pops will probably change as folks In their home countries turn to third party grading.

    Yorkshireman,
    Obsessed “Master Collector” of pieces of history.
    Hunting for Latin American colonial portraits



    Yorkshireman's Box of 20
  • robp2robp2 Posts: 33 ✭✭✭

    @Yorkshireman said:

    @scubafuel said:
    Sorry if that came across as all snark. I was a US centric collector first and always wondered how US series were collected in other countries. Now that I’ve branched out a bit I sometimes have a sneaking suspicion that the world coins we value so highly here are not quite as amazing to collectors in their home country.
    Probably a question that belongs in its own thread though.

    Very interesting idea.
    The international top pops will probably change as folks In their home countries turn to third party grading.

    No worries to either of you. There's nothing wrong with rational disagreement as long as things stay civil.

    As for the first quote, there are relatively few collectors of US coins and there is a considerable difference between the US and Europe in that we are far less wedded to the idea of TPGs. A consequence of this is that the market works in a different way to the US because we don't have a label grade/price structure. Some try to get such a system established and there are a few enthusiastic supporters of slabbing, but as a rule we don't treat TPGs with the same reverence. They are to me and many others just another opinion for which I wouldn't pay the slabbing fees in the first place, nor would I pay a premium later for a number on a label. I have bought probably close to a couple hundred coins in slabs for the collection, some at a premium, some at a discount to book, but not one of those was purchased because of the number. In fact I still have 7 in plastic which I haven't broken out as I need to rearrange the cabinet.

    Consequently, when a 1901 penny sold for a few hundred dollars a few years back just because no other had been given such a high grade, you just roll your eyes and shake your head. At the time you could pick up a nice full lustre example for £15-20, but usually struggled to sell them because they were always available. On the other side of the coin, a member of this forum came up to me at a coin fair in the UK and was happy to have found a top pop MS66 coin for a certain price. To me, the price was in the right ballpark for a good coin - which it was, being also about the same price I had paid for my own example of the type.

    As for the second point, you are looking at a very long term project here for the reasons above. The biggest adherents to the idea of slabbed world coins are Americans. The biggest deslabbers of world coins are non-Americans. Unless there is market pressure to slab coins as seen in the US, there will be no reason to do so.

    Nearly all collectors live in their own little bubble. We all think we are the typical market, but I would surmise that even today in the US there are more collectors of raw coins than slabs, even if the US market is more receptive to the TPG concept.

  • robp2robp2 Posts: 33 ✭✭✭

    And to revert to the original topic - Anne pattern halfpenny, Peck 730.

  • bidaskbidask Posts: 11,849 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I was at the NYINC 3 years ago and a British dealer was showing me a raw set that included gold .

    He showed me the individual coins holding them with his thumb and forefinger on the coins surface .... not by the rims .

    I could not believe it .

    Does this happens a lot with raw coin collectors who don’t like their coins slabbed ?

    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • robp2robp2 Posts: 33 ✭✭✭

    @bidask said:
    I was at the NYINC 3 years ago and a British dealer was showing me a raw set that included gold .

    He showed me the individual coins holding them with his thumb and forefinger on the coins surface .... not by the rims .

    I could not believe it .

    Does this happens a lot with raw coin collectors who don’t like their coins slabbed ?

    Not in this house, but then I have a liking for patterns and proofs which would be easily disfigured by careless handling. Ancient and hammered collectors are not so concerned as virtually all of their coins will have been dug up. Obviously there will be some people who don't care how they hold them, but I would say the majority of top end milled collectors would hold them by the edge. The big problem is copper which picks up fingerprints very easily. Gold and silver is less susceptible.

  • brg5658brg5658 Posts: 2,306 ✭✭✭✭

    I like this kind of toning on 220 year old tokens. Subtle, but complementary to the design.

    -Brandon
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
    My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

  • truebloodtrueblood Posts: 73 ✭✭✭

    @Yorkshireman said:
    Got any toned copper? Show us. I’ll start.
    1825 British farthing. Pop 6, none finer.

    What a gorgeous piece you have there.

  • SYRACUSIANSYRACUSIAN Posts: 6,145 ✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2020 1:32PM

    Nice 4 para Aaron, didn’t expect anything less from you. Essential one year type coin for us, Egypt Ottoman coin collectors! Not as essential as the 1886 gold lira of course... ;)

    Dimitri



    myEbay



    DPOTD 3
  • YorkshiremanYorkshireman Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @trueblood said:

    @Yorkshireman said:
    Got any toned copper? Show us. I’ll start.
    1825 British farthing. Pop 6, none finer.

    What a gorgeous piece you have there.

    Thank you,Trueblood.

    Yorkshireman,
    Obsessed “Master Collector” of pieces of history.
    Hunting for Latin American colonial portraits



    Yorkshireman's Box of 20
  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 9,649 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @robp2 said:

    @Yorkshireman said:

    @scubafuel said:
    Sorry if that came across as all snark. I was a US centric collector first and always wondered how US series were collected in other countries. Now that I’ve branched out a bit I sometimes have a sneaking suspicion that the world coins we value so highly here are not quite as amazing to collectors in their home country.
    Probably a question that belongs in its own thread though.

    Very interesting idea.
    The international top pops will probably change as folks In their home countries turn to third party grading.

    No worries to either of you. There's nothing wrong with rational disagreement as long as things stay civil.

    As for the first quote, there are relatively few collectors of US coins and there is a considerable difference between the US and Europe in that we are far less wedded to the idea of TPGs. A consequence of this is that the market works in a different way to the US because we don't have a label grade/price structure. Some try to get such a system established and there are a few enthusiastic supporters of slabbing, but as a rule we don't treat TPGs with the same reverence. They are to me and many others just another opinion for which I wouldn't pay the slabbing fees in the first place, nor would I pay a premium later for a number on a label. I have bought probably close to a couple hundred coins in slabs for the collection, some at a premium, some at a discount to book, but not one of those was purchased because of the number. In fact I still have 7 in plastic which I haven't broken out as I need to rearrange the cabinet.

    Consequently, when a 1901 penny sold for a few hundred dollars a few years back just because no other had been given such a high grade, you just roll your eyes and shake your head. At the time you could pick up a nice full lustre example for £15-20, but usually struggled to sell them because they were always available. On the other side of the coin, a member of this forum came up to me at a coin fair in the UK and was happy to have found a top pop MS66 coin for a certain price. To me, the price was in the right ballpark for a good coin - which it was, being also about the same price I had paid for my own example of the type.

    As for the second point, you are looking at a very long term project here for the reasons above. The biggest adherents to the idea of slabbed world coins are Americans. The biggest deslabbers of world coins are non-Americans. Unless there is market pressure to slab coins as seen in the US, there will be no reason to do so.

    Nearly all collectors live in their own little bubble. We all think we are the typical market, but I would surmise that even today in the US there are more collectors of raw coins than slabs, even if the US market is more receptive to the TPG concept.

    I’m guessing it was me who came up to you at a coin fair in the UK?

  • robp2robp2 Posts: 33 ✭✭✭

    Correct, Brian. I could see you were happy and it was a good coin. :)

    Things are quiet here at the moment. No fairs since March, but hopefully the Midland might be happening next month, because it's a real pain trying to sell the cheap stuff off the website (everything has to be pictured which reduces the will to live) and buying is a nightmare. Hope springs eternal.

    Keep well.

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 9,649 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @robp2 said:
    Correct, Brian. I could see you were happy and it was a good coin. :)

    Things are quiet here at the moment. No fairs since March, but hopefully the Midland might be happening next month, because it's a real pain trying to sell the cheap stuff off the website (everything has to be pictured which reduces the will to live) and buying is a nightmare. Hope springs eternal.

    Keep well.

    I hope things turn around soon, but glad you are keeping well. I showed my son the 2012 (his birth year) Silver “Crown” boxed set I bought from you at my last Midlands show before moving back. At 8 now he can appreciate them a bit now.

    From my recollection, I only bought two slabbed coins at UK coin fairs, a Victoria six pence MS66 in an NGC old white holder and a George III pattern in a PR66 OGH. To add a further dimension to the discussion, I was just as excited about the marketability of the collectable plastic, as I was the price of the nice coin within it.

  • SYRACUSIANSYRACUSIAN Posts: 6,145 ✭✭✭
    edited September 17, 2020 4:40AM

    ** Consequently, when a 1901 penny sold for a few hundred dollars a few years back just because no other had been given such a high grade, you just roll your eyes and shake your head. At the time you could pick up a nice full lustre example for £15-20, but usually struggled to sell them because they were always available**

    I remember that incident. A couple of 1901 British pennies, graded MS66 RD, reached the astronomical amount of $600-$700 at Heritage 8-9 years ago or nearby.

    True, these were dirt common pennies in the UK, not worth more than £20-£30 at the time, but in their usual mint state condition, which wouldn’t exactly be, BU full luster,, which even that is debatable if it corresponds to RD, although my farthings from the late Colin Cooke met the US (full red = RD) grading standards, but BU excellent luster etc, which would then translate into a 65-66 RB, a color designation that covers an enormous range, from as little as 40% red to 95% red in our hosts, tougher ATS, they do not give the RB designation so easily, but the point that I’m trying to make, taking into consideration bidask’s comment with the treatment of the coins, something that I have experienced myself multiple times, as (being married to a girl from London), I used to go to London coin fairs every single month, and there was no respect for a 1901 penny, Victoria last year and such...

    So, yes, these two pennies might have been the best preserved 1901 pennies that had been also submitted for grading, whereas much more might reside in coin cabinets perhaps untouched from human hands and in old cabinets from mid Victorian times with wood that cannot be harmful to the raw coins (because I saw that too, megalomaniac collectors ordering freshly made cabinets from wood that was not ready to house coins, thus destroying a good part of their collection). Who knows, the collections might have been passed from generations to generations and such pennies might have come directly from the a Royal Mint.

    Was the price correct? Absolutely not! But we are not talking about 1960s pennies (65,66,67), but 1901 99%-100% red pennies that got the lofty RD designation, so they definitely were not your average run of the mill pennies, in fact, good luck locating ONE as good as these, and submit it to see the grade it receives. I will personally gladly pay for the grading fees provided that it returns as RD. And 66 RD no less, not 63,64,65 and definitely not RB.

    I’m not taking any sides here. Besides, we’re not going to invent penicillin by starting to remind collectors that US grades = $$$$ (value) and not technical grades per se. But let’s simply do not confuse RD with RB , even if the latter is as high as 95% red, (= full luster) which is kind of unfair to the collector IMHO.

    Dimitri



    myEbay



    DPOTD 3
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