Tell Me About Barber Dimes
chesterb
Posts: 961 ✭✭✭✭✭
I've been looking at Barbers and it seems that the Barber Dime series doesn't get a lot of good discussion. What is your favorite date and why? I'd like to hear any stories behind the series if you have any.
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1894 S, cause I'll never have one....
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
I like the 1916. It’s the only nice one I have and my wife and I have a thing about 16s due to a diagnosis. In fact, there may be some debate as to whose coin it is.
94-O is my favorite date. Dang tough, and the only MM you're going to get from that year (unless you have an unlimited bankroll)!!
From the aughts, the 09-S is also pretty tough to find.
There are a lot of sleeper dates. But they've been sleepers for years, so ... ???
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
As a Type Set collector, I like any date of 1900 or later, since that one coin can then satisfy both a Basic Design Type Set (or Dansco 7070) and a 20th Century Type Set.
Here’s my one and only Barber Dime (PCGS pop 6, only 3 finer at PR67+CAM):
https://caimages.collectors.com/coinimages/42396/37334408/1908_slab.jpg
https://images.pcgs.com/TrueView/37334408_Medium.jpg
https://caimages.collectors.com/coinimages/42396/37334408/1908_lg_obv.jpg
https://caimages.collectors.com/coinimages/42396/37334408/1908_lg_rev.jpg
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I've always found it to be a hard series to love. So many coins have been dipped to death, and I have difficulty finding truly original, attractive pieces. Lightly toned pieces with eye appeal, decent luster (which is usually satiny) and clean surfaces are tougher to find. I also hate the design which is what I envision a Victorian era transvestite would look like.
Date wise I like the 1895, 1903-S, 1913-S, and 1915-S which appear to be more affordable than some of their similar low mintage kin in gem that cost multiples more. I think putting together a nice original gem mini set would be a fun challenge if you like the design.
You should have @Dave99B about them...he has "a few"
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
1895 is a great date, so is 1895 o
1895 s is also not so easy to find very nice
1896 is also sweet as is 1896 o
1896 s is also a valuable date
Cameonut - I don’t believe Liberty
has a gender on the Barber design.
Why would you think of how a Victorian era transvestite would
look ?
I completed this series in (mostly) MS63 to MS65, and got my set up to #4 in the Registry at one point. After all of that work, I watched prices for my carefully assembled set slowly decline over a period of years. I broke up the set and only kept the 10 most impressive coins, including the 1895-O in PCGS MS64. Prices continued to drop on some coins after I sold my set. The lone coin that really appreciated in value was the 1895-O.
Here are my thoughts on the series: the bear market probably continues. The series is unpopular compared to both Mercury and Seated dimes. It is less popular than Barber 25c and 50c, too. Prices for MS Barber dimes have mostly decreased since the 1990s, and some of them (1907-D, 1909-D) have suffered brutal losses (while I owned them).
Putting together a truly original set in XF-AU grades with nice surfaces would be a safer and much cheaper venture than buying MS coins. There is potential for price appreciation for the coveted PCGS AU58/CAC type of material, especially on better dates.
If you need to go with MS material, stick with CAC-approved coins. There are a lot of dogs out there in MS64/65 holders with sneaky hairlines on the face, poor strike, etc. They made somebody's day when they graded higher than expected, and you're the prospective buyer who's going to pay off the previous owner like a slot machine (or maybe not).
Some of the dates I found to be underrated or difficult to locate (in MS63-65) are 1901-S, 1902-O, 1902-S, 1904-S, and 1913-S. Some of the dates that are especially tough in nice/original AU are 1894-O, 1895-O, 1896-O, and 1897-O. Watch out for overgraded coins in plastic on these dates in XF-AU. I know it's a key date, but an XF should have XF detail, not VF detail, right?
Anyway, sorry to be a downer today, but I feel that the prospective buyer of MS Barber 10c needs to view the series as a potential long-term bear market that's already 20+ years in progress. Buyers of really choice XF-AU coins are probably in a better position to hold onto their sets and realize some kind of gain.
I like them ... just never collected them.
+1
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Really a shame Mike Hayes is not alive to chime in. Such a good guy. RIP.
Have you looked at the Barber thread in his honor?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/924440/the-michael-f-hayes-barber-megathread/p1
Many Barber collectors there if you wish to repost your question. Of the Barber coinage, I like the dime the best.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
A few years ago, I fulfilled a boyhood dream and, using the head start of my grandmother's partial set (mostly smoothies from circulation and common dates), I completed the Barber dime set in an album. I looked at the album recently and thought that I would like to start upgrading some/many of the coins to VF/XF as a future, perhaps next, numismatic project. In some ways, this is probably more challenging than assembling an MS collection.
As others have said, Barber's have quite a following, but this doesn't always extend to dimes. I picked up this one from a Heritage auction a few years back. It was in the "Lily Nicole" auction, whatever or whoever that is. This is one of those PCGS plus coins that doesn't sport a CAC sticker. Why is a bit of a mystery to me and the person who reviewed it for me prior to purchase.
@RYK,
Good to see you, BTW.
Muted luster and/or dark neutral eye appeal toning ? Those would be the only technical things at that level, JA is tough at the superb Gem levels
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
My opinion, based only upon these images, is that the toning (especially the reverse) is gone to the "burnt" stage and killed off a bit of the luster that should be present at the MS67 level which, in combination with the neutral color palette and partial obverse fingerprint capped the coin in the eyes of CAC.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
To get back to the OP's comments, I have loved Barber coinage for decades, yet am one of those people who never really warmed up to the dimes. That experience might be more common amongst Barber collectors than others may anticipate.
The obverse design appears to crowd the open field space in a way that the quarters and half dollars do not crowd. There is also one essentially completely unobtainable "fantasy" issue (1894-S) that is still required in the eyes of many and that spoils the idea of a complete set for most folks. Additionally, since the quarters and half dollars have such similar obverse designs, one might buy a larger coin in the same grade range at essentially the same price level, which is an attractive endeavor. Of course, these also suffer the same fate as the vast majority of quarters and half dollars in that they are either slicks, damaged and/or dipped-cleaned-wiped to death so that putting together an appreciable number of mid-grade, original and attractive specimens is far harder than published prices might indicate. Perhaps all of these lead to collector fatigue for those who collect series and, thus, keep down conversations.
I love original mid-grade pieces, but currently only own one gem as a type coin.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I've always felt the same way about Liberty Seated dimes, even more so than Barbers. The other disadvantage of the dimes is no eagle, which design I find quite attractive on Barber coinage.
I'm with @TomB, and a few others. The reverse is just not as pleasing as the Quarter and Half.
The 94-S also stops me from collecting the set. When I start working on a set, in a specific grade, I need to be able to complete it. The 94-S hole would drive me absolutely insane.
Dave
FWIW, a PCGS photo of the same coin (not necessarily a TrueView). Interesting how different the two photos are. In-hand, the look is something between the two. I’ll have to look again.
Looking at the design elements and the clothing of that era alone, I would conclude that the depiction of Liberty was intended to be female. Based on facial morphology; however, I conclude that the model or depiction of Liberty is actually male based on the following:
Nose: Male noses tend to be larger and more prominent than female noses with wider nasal bases. The nasal bridge is usually straight or slightly arched in males while female noses are usually smaller and narrower with a slightly concave profile. Liberty’s profile sports a rather large nose with wide nasal bases and a straight nasal bridge. This morphology is consistent with a male depiction.
Eyes: Female eyes tend to be larger than male eyes. Male eyes tend to be recessed further in the face and narrower in appearance. Liberty has smaller, narrow eyes that are deep-set. Again, this is consistent with male morphology.
Lips: Male lips tend to be thinner whereas female lips tend to be more lush and full. The mouth is also closer to the face in females than males. Liberty’s lips don’t look lush to me, and there is notable distance between the nose and the mouth. Again, this is consistent with male morphology.
Forehead: While it is true that male foreheads are typically larger, because of the shape of the frontal bone, male foreheads tend to have a slope. Female foreheads are usually vertical. Male foreheads also have a boney ridge that runs above the eyes from one side of the forehead to the other. Female foreheads are smoother. Liberty has a sloped forehead with what appears to be a prominent boney ridge. Again, this is most consistent with male morphology.
Chin: Male chins tend to be more rounded or angular than females. Put another way, it tends to be more prominent. The jaw bone is also heavier and wider in females. Liberty appears (to me at least) to have quite a distinctive cheek bone (particularly the maxilla) and a prominent chin which again makes Liberty appear less feminine.
Cheeks: This one is harder in 2D. Female cheeks tend to be rounded and fuller than male cheeks which are usually angular and lie flatter on the face. This makes Liberty look more masculine, but again this is within the constraints of a 2D design.
Based on morphology, the head appears to be male. I wonder what the forum doctors think. @BryceM @RYK @erwindoc
Image source: https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20160608-the-cross-dressing-gents-of-victorian-england
Clearly, the intent (as always) was for a female depiction of Liberty. As for morphology..... let’s just say she’s quite the handsome woman.
I could not have said it better!
You're seeing a side view image of Liberty so it's hard to get the full picture. If you could see her from the front in 3-D then you'd realize how hot she is. She kinda looks like Drew Barrymore.
Currently on my desk and wondering why they did not call it PL.
The proofs can be really beautifully toned, and wonderful as a set.
Count me in the non-dime camp.
Over 30 years of interest in Barbers I’ve owned 100’s of halves VG-AU58
And 100’s of quarters, including the Big 3.
But I’ve only owned 1 Dime, a ‘98O, that I think was MS62.
That said, I agree there is a counter argument in favor of doing the dimes. I find nothing wrong with them. A complete VF-XF album would be great.
I decided to collect what I thought was the toughest 20 coins in xf-au, original problem free coins. Most are also CAC. Just need the 13-S.
Been fun, not super expensive, but you’ll look awhile before you can find problem free material. Been about a three year quest.
They did not call it PL because it doesn't appear to have mirrors with the requisite depth of mirrors to qualify for a PL designation. While it is true that this can be difficult to assess in 2D photos, I see enough luster to say that it shouldn't PL. Cartwheel luster is the antithesis of PL.
I rest my case.
NLH
End Systemic Elitism - It Takes All Of Us
Ditto
Cameonut - what is your background ? It seems as though you are trying to convince everyone
the Charles Barber design for the Barber design is that of a transvestite .( cross dresser ? )
I am a trained Working sculptor
for more than 40 years. I have also studied artistic anatomy for more than 30 years . I have also collected Barber coinage even longer . I presently own the finest quality mint state Barber Dime collection ever assembled.
There was no model for the
Barber coinage ever mentioned
anywhere. Unlike the mercury Dime or the standing liberty quarter or the
Walking liberty half dollar where Elise Wallace is mentioned as the model .
Also of note is the Victorian era began in 1837 which was the beginning of the reign of Queen Victoria.. Why Charles would use
the image of a Victorian era transvestite in 1892
does not make any sense.
If you wish to elaborate on myology instead of morphology
I recommend the studies done by the anatomist of that time
William Rimmer .
All coin designs are 3D known as reliefs and not 2D I stand by my analogy
there is nothing in the design of Barber coinage to indicate any
Sex of the head. The only real difference in determining sex when looking at a skull would be the super orbital eminence above the eyes
And on Barbers design it is not evident whether it is male or female.
And the similarities to Drew Barrymore are also amusing.
I didn't take Cameonut's comments seriously and found it funny. My comment regarding Drew Barrymore similarities is genuine.
However, as the OP, let's take that discussion offline or in another thread if need be. When I asked for favorite stories on this series I never imagined the thread would take a turn like this although I shouldn't be surprised anymore with this group. Instead let's focus on favorite dates and "numismatic" stories other than gender appearance...ok?
Has anyone seen the 1893 o
graded ms 68 PL ?
Or the 1905o micro o
graded ms 66+ ?
On the hunt?
They could be identical twins!
I agree with the poster that mentioned proofs. All have tiny mintages. Most are incredibly affordable even in gem/superb gem proof. There are many nice toners that have some potential as well as some DCAM/CAM dates. Across denominations and series many dates in the 1st decade of the 20th century are surprisingly scarce even when compared to the 1890s in CAM/DCAM. I'm not sure why.
I'm sorry for the diversion. While some was tongue in cheek, I mentioned the mediocre design as I think it has a lot to do with series popularity along with satiny to marginal luster and the dip out culture.
>
No worries, it was fun! And seeing a post with an actual Victorian photo was even more fun, if not, a bit weird.
Would like to have a nice MS AND PF 64 in my collection some day
It's a buyers market. Time is on your side.
Opportunity knocks at the very deep end of the pool with Stuart Blay's Registry Set #1 up for Auction tomorrow night and next week Sunday.
SOL profile for comparison.
Back ibn the '60's mixtures of Barber dime had a lot of XF's and even AU's in them. So far as I know all the higher grades were common date though. Over the years higher grades have been picked out to the point that most accumulations have nice VG's as the high end.
Quarters and halfs had a lot fewer high grades.
It is surprising for this series and how many people have come out of the woodwork with interest in Stewart Blay's Dimes. Even people that have no previous dimes in their collections.
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I don't love the type as much as I do with Capped Bust and Seated Liberties, however in my experience, Barber Dimes are a good and affordable gateway into nineteenth century American silver coinage. I've started off many young and new collectors with a mintmarked dime from a century prior to a significant event in their life, whether that be a birthday or graduation. In fact, one of my buddies was moving to New Orleans so I gifted him an 1909-O dime in honor of our 2009 high school graduation and told him to bring the coin back to its maker.
Varieties are scarce but fun to look out for. RPDs, MPDs, RPMs, and the like. You won't find them all in the Cherrypicker's Guide.
Custom album maker and numismatic photographer.
Need a personalized album made? Design it on the website below and I'll build it for you.
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This 1892 Barber was my very first certified coin, almost 25 years ago. It formerly resided in an ANACS soapbox, but I wanted it in PCGS plastic to include it in my type set. I spent hours appreciating this coin in my early collecting days. It’s probably why I have an affinity for toners. Glad I kept it all these years.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.