I miss watching this guy pitch
doubledragon
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in Sports Talk
One of the pitchers I truly enjoyed watching on the mound.
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Intimidating pitcher.
Feisty, I like it!!
His stuff was filthy.
Filthy I say!!
You are preaching to the choir on this one Doubled. He is one of my favorites. As a Red Sox fan I loved watching this guy. And filthy is the exact right word for it. His pitches had nasty movement and his attitude was just what was necessary to get the job done.
I loved Pedro. He was absolutely a Sox LEGEND. Him and Papi
at one time im convinced he was the baddest 170-lb man on the planet
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
Yes, is a legend. They'll never be another one like him. I loved his aggressive attitude on the mound, and he could be hilarious off the mound. If you ever get a chance, read the story about the Sandra Bullock 2001 Sports Illustrated for Kids interview he did. I can't repeat the story here, there might be children reading this thread!! 😂😂😂😂
I still remember this game like it was yesterday.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQyLQFIhS4U
Eric
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@erikthredd
Man, that game was sick. He was just a nasty pitcher to face. He just went off on the Yankees.
My favorite game of his not withstanding any deciding Playoff games. Pedro vs Clemens in NY on a sunday night espn game was another masterpeice for both pitchers with a Trot Nixon homer as the difference in the game. Don't remember the year on that one though.
Eric
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This one was a gem, Pedro mowed down 15 Orioles in a shutout.
You give a great pitcher like Pedro a generous strike zone and you have zero chance. He was smart enough to abuse it ala Maddox
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
AFAIK, he threw seven curveballs through the first three innings, and they all were called strikes.
Chili Davis must have been looking inside fastball and got it. Pedro looked un hittable that night
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
i was lucky enough to meet pedro a couple of years ago. a fun, easy going guy to talk with. he was a tremendous red sox.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I met Pedro at either the 2013 or 2015 National Convention (can't remember which, as I was at both), and completely agree with you.
Steve
Speaking of Greg Maddux, check out the movement on these Greg Maddux pitches. It's just ridiculous.
when I think about Pedro, this is the absolute first thing that comes to my mind. i remember this game like it was yesterday. it was 1994, when I still cared about baseball. he was 22. his 2nd start of the season with the Expos. 5th start of his career. 7 1/3 innings of perfect baseball pitched against the Reds. that's right, he was 5 outs away from a perfecto. then Reggie Sanders came to the plate and this happened....
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
Maddox was straight up filthy
What I really loved about Pedro is he was one of the most unassuming guys out there, zero intimidating look to him yet he had the attitude that took ZERO crap and wasn’t afraid to scrap lol.
Pedro with a HOF worthy Mullet!
Eric
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I hate Pedro Martinez and don’t miss him one bit.
That’s about the highest compliment you can get from a Yankees fan. He was simply incredible - his run from 1997-2003 was Koufaxian. One of the last great pitchers who threw at batters with intent, consistency and intellect; he hit Jeter on the hands and fingers so many f’n times!
Absolute stud.
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Do batters try to avoid being hit? I thought they were supposed to make an effort.
He was simply incredible - his run from 1997-2003 was Koufaxian.
He also did it without the home park advantage.
More innings pitched and higher lifetime ERA+ as well.
i would say that what Koufax did from 62-66 was Martinezian.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I am also a long-time Yankees fan. I also agree he was absolutely dominant. I don't even hold his reaction to Zimmer against him! He was blind-sided and in the midst of the greatest baseball rivalry on earth. I am not so sure about Craig44's Koufax claim but it is certainly debatable. I don't like the Dodgers at all but Koufax was the best ever those few years IMHO.
I would agree with this. Martinez's run was better - he led the majors in ERA 5 times in 7 years and his LOWEST ERA+ was 163, with five years over 200. Koufax led the majors in ERA three times in his run, and his best ERA+ was 190. And, oh yeah, Martinez's run lasted 7 years instead of 5. And he did it while be being better on the road than at home - all 7 years.
You nailed it! Exactly what I saw when I looked at the numbers.
Imagine Pedro's legacy had they won a couple of World Series'.
This is good info.
I fall into the camp that a pitcher getting the first and last out in a ballgame is hard to beat. Doing so without giving up runs is even tougher. Taking the ball 40 times in a season, tougher still. Eclipsing 300 IP in a season is other worldly at this point in baseball history and doing it 3 times in 5 years is superhuman. After these long seasons, to then go out and be unhittable in the postseason is a true testament to one’s utter dominance.
But I think this only describes one of the two. 😉
Trust me, I know how good Pedro looks with the advanced stats and in the midst of the steroid era AND in a hitters park.
But based on the above And which pitcher was able to do it all, I will still take Sandy Koufax.
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The thinking of "managing" a pitchers arm has changed over the years and much of that change could be directly related to Koufax.
I remember an article spelling out how much the author thought Koufax was overused, he then claimed it shortened his career.
The Dodgers had a very good closer in Ron Perranoski (who led the league in saves a couple of times with my Minnesota Twins) and yet had Sandy finish 54 of his last 84 games. Koufax certainly deserves a ton of credit, but this is just not going to happen with any starting pitcher in the modern game.
Pedro pitched an average of 7 2/3 innings in 1997 and that dropped to 6 2/3 in 2004. I didn't see him pitch much, was he "out of gas" or just pulled out because they had guys making huge money to close out the games?
Koufax pitched just under 8 innings per start during his 5 fabulous seasons.
It hasn't been mentioned here that in his first 6 seasons (three of which he pitched over 150 innings), Koufax was an average pitcher (105 ERA+) who struck out a lot of batters.
In his first 6 years (leaving out 1992 with 8 innings total), Martinez was an outstanding pitcher with a 148 ERA+ with a CY Young award and a 2nd place finish.
The next 5 seasons Pedro led the AL in ERA every year. He did not pitch enough in 2001 to qualify, but his ERA was more than a full run less than the winner (Roger Clemens). Then Pedro had 2 more great seasons.
My bottom line is no matter how much weight you put on Koufax's dominance, it was 5 years, no more.
Pedro had those 5 years, and added at least another 3 dominant and another 3 good/great years. About twice the "peak" performance years Sandy gave us.
In reading your posts on other threads, it seems you give a lot of credit for being on teams winning championships, and in that regard Koufax has Pedro beat handily.
With Koufax having Drysdale with him for his entire career plus the fact that they had only a four man rotation, that (to me) explains the extra innings pitched and the championships.
Did you ever look up who were some of the starting pitchers that played with Pedro? Schilling 1 year. After that a washed up Saberhagen and Jeff Fassaro, and a couple of "one year wonders". A manager with one good starter (in today's game) is just not going to make him pitch to those 1-3 extra guys.
Don't get me wrong, Koufax was a great pitcher, I am not trying to say he wasn't.
@JoeBanzai
Championships are used when talking best of the best; to me it matters but not to everyone. There are guys who didn’t win who are still great but when two guys are close, awards and championships can help sway me. Yes, they can be (and are) a function of a team but in baseball a pitcher can really do some heavy lifting in the postseason towards generating victorious performances; starting 3 games in a seven games series comes to mind.
For much of his career, Pedro Martinez was masterful for 100 pitches and dramatically less effective come pitch 101. I’m not sure they even tracked pitch count back then but Koufax was more about the 27 outs not the number of pitches required to get there. During his 6 season dominant run, Pedro had 11 complete game shut outs; 11 complete game shutouts for Sandy Koufax is called 1963.
Again, Pedro was an outstanding pitcher in his own way but he was not Sandy Koufax. People love to act like today’s players are the best and deny the game has changed for the worse but I don’t agree With that. Pitchers don’t go deeper in games and hitters hit the ball further but much less often and also strikeout much more. That’s better? I don’t agree. Neither of these is better; when you get down to it, in fact, it might even be worse.
Yes, I will take the pitcher who takes the ball 41 times in 160 game season, completes 27 games and strikes out 300 men while pitching 300 innings. AND honestly, I don’t need any other stats. At all. Keep your xFIP, baBIP and ERA+ and I’ll stick with CG’s and shutouts...
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I am quite a bit like you, in liking the older players (for the most part) and not being "in love" with the new stats.
Hard to compare them when the rotation goes from a 4 man to a 5. The newer players get less starts.
No pitcher has thrown for 300 innings in a season for 40 years. Koufax struck out 300 men in a season 3 times, Pedro did it twice (in less innings), wins are a team stat to me.
If Pedro "lost it" after 100 pitches, that does matter, to me his having 10 great seasons would outweigh Sandy's 5, no stats needed at all.
1963, 65 and 66 were masterful years. Let's agree that they were better seasons than Martinez ever had. In his other 2 dominant seasons, Sandy started 26 and 28 games and averaged about 200 innings pitched.
Pedro started 29 or more games in 10 seasons. Koufax had more than 29 starts in 1 season other than his "big three".
We'll just have to agree to disagree.
Have a great week!
Yeah, except the difference between an average year of Koufax during his run and an average year of Pedro during his is like 100 innings of whatever it takes to lower your ERA+ by 100-130 added onto Pedro.
Not to mention "I'll take the guy who pitches 300 (or even 225) innings" only gets you 3 years of Koufax, not 5. And there's absolutely zero chance he throws 250 in Pedro's era, let alone 300.
And, really, Koufax was only great at Dodger Stadium. He had an ERA over 3.50 in 6 of the 14 ballparks he pitched in 5 or more times. And 3 of the other 8 were expansion teams.
Sandy had 3 complete great seasons. Pedro had way more.
Let's be fair, Koufax was good on the road in 1966.
Randy Johnson is the guy I miss watching pitch.
He was a guy who really struggled with control issues and through determination
and hard work eventually mastered his craft and dominated.
I really enjoyed watching Johan Santana.
His run from 2004-2008 was very very good. Great fastball and even better change-up.
He made a lot of batters look foolish.
He won 2 Cy Youngs and could/should have won 2 more (2005, 2008), injuries ended his career after pitching 2025 innings.
Practically unbeatable in the second half of the season.
@JoeBanzai
@Tabe
I’m not calling you crazy, just arguing for Sandy. And to that end, we have what they did to go by not what they could have done.
I’m aware they’re from different eras. The goals are the same - pitch your team to a win. Sure, lighting up strikeouts and making batters look foolish is great - they both did it well.
Guys were pitching 290+ innings into the 80s and the IP league leaders in Pedro‘s dominant 7 year run were
1997 - 264 (Pedro 241)
1998- 268 (233)
1999 - 271 (213)
2000 - 261 (217)
2001 - 256. (116)
2002 - 260 (199)
2003 - 266 (186)
So again, he was quite dominant when out there but missed lots of starts and would often leave 6-9 out for the bullpen. Those are the guys not as good as the starters, for the most part and many times, as indicated by W-L, they’d give up a lead or a win. Yankees did this quite a bit; get nothing off Pedro for 6-7 and then get it the bullpen and pull it out.
Lastly, those last 6-9 outs are tough to get as a starter. It’s also when most guys tended to give up runs - logically - they’re tired, missing spots, etc. Personally, I think that artificially lowers (INTUITIVELY) the ERA of a pitcher who is never asked to get those out. Certainly, even in the modern times of lower numbers of starts and innings pitched, Pedro was never a leader in either and was not very durable so I think it’s clear he could never have done what Sandy did pitching in the 60’s; one or two years of 300IP May have been the entire run for Pedro’s career!
So, instead, let’s go the other way. If Sandy Koufax was coddled and protected the way pitchers today are; if he came out games after 6-7 innings/100 pitches, went to the DL with minor soreness, made 33 starts a year instead of 40 and in general was afforded the comforts, technology and surgeries afforded the modern pitcher...
...what would those numbers look like?
Again, I saw Pedro pitch. He’s on a short list of modern pitchers that I would say is the best I ever saw play. However, I’m still partial to Koufax for all these reasons mentioned.
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He was even more entertaining in between starts...
which of course led to this:
Eric
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As much as I despised him as a player, he’s terrific on the MLB Network to the point where I actually really like him now - he’s honest, candid and humble and provides a tremendous insight into pitching.
I’m really not hating on him - at all. I hope it’s not taken that way when I argue for Koufax.
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I don't have any good or bad feelings about either player. I get the idea that your feelings about Pedro must be coloring your opinion.
In reading your very well written arguments, it seems to me that you are giving Koufax credit for being incredibly dominant for his entire career. Out of his 12 official seasons he had 3 of the type years you are holding up for comparison.
What has always baffled me about Koufax's fans is their complete disregard for his years 1955-1961. He didn't pitch much in 1955-56 when he was 19 and 20 years old just as Pedro didn't pitch much in his first year. So in the interest of a fair comparison, I'll start looking at the two players at the age of 21, when they both first pitched over 100 innings for the first time.
At 21 Koufax had an ERA of 3.88, the top three pitchers had ERA's of a little under 2.70, Sandy pitched about 3 innings per appearance.
At 21 Pedro had an ERA of 2.61 which would have been the 3rd lowest in the league. He pitched primarily in relief and pitched about 1 2/3 of an inning per appearance.
22 Koufax 4.48 ERA, league leaders were under 3.00. Sandy pitched about 4 innings per start. Makes starting rotation as number 4 pitcher.
22 Martinez 3.42 ERA, league leaders were under 3.00. Pedro pitched about 6 1/3 innings per start. Was an established starter, solid #2-3 starting pitcher.
23 Koufax 4.05 ERA, league leaders were under 3.00. Sandy pitched about 4 1/3 innings per start. #4/5 starter.
23 Martinez 3.51 ERA, league leaders were under 3.00. Pedro pitched about 6 1/2 innings per start. Pitches 194 innings. Becomes "Ace" of pitching staff.
24 Koufax 4.48 ERA, league leaders were under 3.00. Sandy pitched about 4 innings per start.
24 Martinez 3.70 ERA, league leaders were under 3.00. Pedro pitched about 6 1/2 innings per start. Over 200 innings
25 Koufax 3.52 ERA, league leaders were a bit over 3.00. Sandy pitched about 6 innings per start. 255 innings pitched.
25 Martinez 1.90 ERA first place in ERA. Pedro pitched about 6 1/2 innings per start. 241 innings pitched. Cy Young winner.
26 Koufax 2.54 ERA, first place in ERA. Sandy pitched about 6 2/3 innings per start. 184 innings pitched.
26 Martinez 2.89 ERA, second place in ERA. Pedro pitched about 7 innings per start. 233 innings pitched. 2nd in C.Y.
Now we are where the "Koufax guys" want to start the discussion. Up to this point there's no comparison. Pedro simply the far superior pitcher in every area.
27 Koufax 1.88 ERA, first place in ERA. Sandy pitched just under 8 innings per start. 311 innings pitched. C.Y. winner.
27 Martinez 2.07 ERA, first place in ERA. Pedro pitched about 7 innings per start. 233 innings pitched. C.Y. winner.
28 Koufax 1.74 ERA, first place in ERA. Sandy pitched just under 8 innings per start. 223 innings pitched. C.Y. 3rd place.
28 Martinez 1.74 ERA, first place in ERA. Pedro pitched 7 1/2 innings per start. 217 innings pitched. C.Y. winner.
29 Koufax 2.04 ERA, first place in ERA. Sandy pitched just under 8 innings per start. 335.2 innings pitched, C.Y. winner.
29 Martinez 2.39 ERA, first place in ERA. Pedro pitched 6 1/2 innings per start. 116 innings pitched. Injured.
30 Koufax 1.73 ERA, first place in ERA. Sandy pitched just under 8 innings per start. 323 innings pitched, C.Y. winner.
30 Martinez 2.26 ERA, first place in ERA. Pedro pitched 6 2/3 innings per start. 199 innings pitched. Injured. C.Y. 2nd place. Should have won, better than Zito.
Now's where the Koufax "guys" obviously want to stop
31 Martinez 2.22 ERA, first place in ERA 6.4 innings per start 186 innings pitched. C.Y. 3rd place. Should have won. FAR better than Halladay a full run lower ERA.
32 Martinez 3.90 ERA, ninth place in ERA. Pedro pitched 6 2/3 innings per start. 217 innings pitched.
33 Martinez 2.82 ERA, fourth place in ERA. Pedro pitched 7 innings per start. 217 innings pitched.
I'll concede Sandy's big three years where he went over 300 innings. I'll skip age 21, give Pedro the years when they were 22-25, age 26 is a wash, age 28 is a wash, and obviously Martinez had three more good/great years ages 31-33.
Martinez has 7 clear "wins" to Koufax's 3 with a couple of ties. ERA titles it's Martinez 6-5 Cy Young's it's tied 3 a piece, with Pedro having two 2nd place finishes a 3 and a 4, Sandy adds a 3rd place finish.
I also see 5 years where Martinez pitched more innings per start and of course another 3-4 good years when Koufax was retired.
More starts and complete games are great achievements for Koufax, but those things are out of a pitcher's control. I would say almost impossible in today's game.
I'll also give you that Koufax didn't "run out of gas" like Pedro.
@JoeBanzai
To reiterate, my part in this discussion was based on calling Pedro’s run from 1997-2003 Koufaxian and then doing my best to promote the idea that Koufax’s similar run of dominance from 1960-1966.
So while that wasn’t what I was discussing, I will attempt to give the answer for Sandy Koufax and his lack of early career effectiveness.
I always thought this was relatively simple. Don Newcombe, Johnny Podres, Don Drysdale, Roger Craig, Sal Maglie and Carl Erskine were more tenured and proven pitchers so Sandy Koufax had to wait his turn and therefore bounced between the bullpen and spot starting for much of that time (ages 19-22). Because he was young and raw and the other pitchers more polished and league ready (again, his rookie year was as a bullpen pitcher on a World Series winner) it isn’t hard to imagine why securing a spot in that particular four man rotation might pose some challenges. As he learned to pitch and harness his control and guys retired and got hurt, he eventually got his shot and made the most of it.
Always a please chatting with you, @JoeBanzai
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One small correction - the year Pedro had a 1.90 ERA, he threw 241 innings in 31 starts - an average of 7.8 per start, not 6-1/2.
For me, the fact Pedro had a better ERA on the road every year than at home is a huge plus in his favor. He didn't have half his starts in Death Valley to boost his numbers. I mean, is it REALLY just a coincidence that his numbers improved the second Dodger Stadium opened? And the strike zone was enlarged?
Also, it's more than a little unfair to refer to the treatment of Pedro as "coddled". That's a derogatory word and it's unfair. Beyond that, the treatment worked. If the Expos and Red Sox blow out his arm by having him throw 300+ innings 3 out of 5 years - remember, Sandy didn't do that every year - starting in 1997, maybe he's finished in 2001 and the Sox don't get a title in 2004.
@Tabe
ALL modern athletes are coddled compared to prior ones and it’s largely a financial decision.
That’s why I said,
“ If Sandy Koufax was coddled and protected the way pitchers today are; if he came out games after 6-7 innings/100 pitches, went to the DL with minor soreness, made 33 starts a year instead of 40 and in general was afforded the comforts, technology and surgeries afforded the modern pitcher...
...what would those numbers look like? “
This is all pitchers today. The above coddling is applied to literally all pitchers now. I can’t think of one exception in MLB today.
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>
Oops. I was doing math for what seemed like HOURS.
Very true and park factor is a fine indicator of how good a pitcher is. I left out a lot of stats that could have backed up the evidence that Pedro was the better of two great pitchers.
I figured it was already more than enough.
As always, much respect to you, 1951WheatiesPremium