Do you agree with this coin dealer that a coin determined to be 'Unc Details' makes no sense?
Goldbully
Posts: 17,457 ✭✭✭✭✭
Does anyone know this dealer's name?
He's very good with his video presentations on coins.
"At what point does uncirculated and circulated part ways?"
Portsmouth Coin & Currency
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_wkC7jQw1A
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I don't know his name but here is a tour of his shop
https://youtu.be/O9HwYXjwfys
And yes, I enjoy his videos
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Bad transactions with : nobody to date
I can see his point, but have no problem with "Unc. Details, cleaned".
For example, I see nothing wrong with distinguishing an XF details example from an AU details example from an Unc. details example, while noting the reason for the "details" part. I think that makes more sense than automatically downgrading a cleaned coin without wear to "AU details". If you do that, how do you convey that such a coin is different form a cleaned coin that does show "AU" wear?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Agree with Mark Feld. To me, all that "Unc Details, cleaned" means is that the coin has no wear but may be hair lined or have other evidence of surface disturbances due to an improper cleaning.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Devils advocate! If the surfaces are hair lined isn't that wear?
No, you dolt! That could be "CABINET FRICTION" indicating highbrow ownership and grand provenance.
Wear from normal circulation looks different than hairlines from a cleaning.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Yes, but it's still uncirculated unless the cleaning was done in a circular manner
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"see if maybe I could get a 64" at 5:20. how do you think like that and then complain about your grades?? he sure likes words like might, hope and maybe when he's talking about what he expected as grades.
at 10:00 he admits it has hairlines and that he hasn't really looked at it that closely. to the point of circulated and uncirculated, if the coin has hairlines from cleaning it is still cleaned. does he think if the coin was graded as AU that it wouldn't still be cleaned with the hairlines?? does he understand the main distinction between AU and MS is breaks in the luster??
I hope and think and you know better. Hairlines, due to cleaning on an uncirculated coin look very different from both "wear" and what some call "cabinet friction".
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
In this case what defines AU,spending (in circulation) or cleaning (any type) do they both fall under AU or are they separate.
Was the cleaned coin circulated?
Not spent but touched more than once so to speak.
It's not always possible to determine whether a coin has actually circulated. So as long as a coin displays no discernible wear (or other evidence of circulation) it's called uncirculated. Typically, before a coin is downgraded to "AU", it must display wear.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I agree, I misread the label...I thought it read AU detail.
I watched the video when it came out and didn't agree with his premise. But, his videos are usually spot on.
bob
I disagree with any coin dealer that repeatedly flips a coin over wrong and then turns it over because the reverse is upside down now.
Or at least it’s a pet peeve.
I thought he was turning them over wrong on purpose to hide the grade. Does he do it in his other videos? I've watched some, but none where he used that camera to show slabs.
Nice videos.
No. There can be hairlining without rub, so I agree that there should be an 'unc. details'.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
I see his point but have no problem with the grade on the holder (since the problem is described). What’s significant too me is it’s a problem coin (subject to trading well below the grade on the holder). A dealer who dealt in problem coins I shared a table with at a show one time said his goal on this material get somewhere between cost and retail. So in this instance I would interpret that statement somewhere between cost and MS60 money. As far what that would be see it as subjective between buyer, extent of problem, and seller (most likely specialist in that type of material).
It’s a very well done interesting video, thanks for sharing.
This post might open a can of worms......but might also make a lot of to think a bit further.
There is another question ...or two, or maybe more.
If all collectors and TPG's would only use the Sheldon scale for grades, and not describe a coin with sometimes very misleading descriptions, (like mainly in Europe where a description can be stretched like a very strong rubber band and still be maybeeeeee correct) all grades would be expressed using Sheldon numbers.
After all, what is the sheldon scale being recognized for?
Question #1:
Why is that not, or only partially used?
Any dealer or collector should be in a knowledge position to see and recognize if a coin's surface has been altered or not. Obvious surface issues are described despite being very visible. Why??? Is it to justify a fee? or extra fee?
If you are not sassy enough to have that ability and or knowledge to recognize these issues, than: either do not buy the coin, or better yet, before you get into numismatics, educate yourself to recognize a surface altered coin. You might have to pay for that education, but that will pay itself back in no time at all.
Question #2: **
Is it_ required or expected_ from a TPG to openly state that a coin is cleaned or otherwise surface treated, **all in their perhaps often even wrong and highly paid for opinion? should a buyer not have knowledge enough to recognize common issues?
Is that really doing a service for a client by the TPG's?
Remember, even if the opinion is not correct, the coin is marked for life! ... unless you break it out and have it re-done elsewhere.....
How about coins that come back uncirculated ,"improperly cleaned" Why would anybody clean an uncirculated coin?? any way, why would you mess with it unless they were trying to make it a bit more shiny which you would not need for a grade. makes people angry...
1) In many cases, it's far more difficult than you make it sound, for many dealers or collectors to recognize whether a coin's surface has been altered. What's obvious to some viewers, isn't to others. And designating a coin as having a details grade doesn't result in a higher fee.
2) Do you believe that a grading company isn't really doing a service for a client when it labels a coin "cleaned", just because that's an opinion? If that's the case, perhaps they shouldn't provide a grade, either, as n many cases, that's a far more subjective opinion.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
You just answered your own question.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I agree with Mark. On your #1 the reality is not everyone is of sufficient knowledge, experience, or opportunity to pick up on all the issues a world class grader will recognize. And if we're throwing people back to the wolves, such as in the days before TPGs were very popular, then the market will dramatically shrink because not everyone has the time or ability to become a world class grader.
On your #2, it is expected entirely. In previous times the TPGs would bodybag the coin and not holder it. It was for the benefit of the consumer that they began to holder as Genuine and later to give a grade with problems listed. And expecting a buyer to be an expert on all things grading, counterfeits, and alterations would severely limit this hobby. I don't see why we would, effectively, place all the burdens on the buyer for some philosophical reason.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
Hmmmm, I figured I might get slammed. What causes a hairline? Simple answer....RUB! It's just not overall rub.
From a scientific observation the coin would have wear. Calling a coin Unc details due to hairlines is just market acceptable if the luster is unbroken.
If TPGs didn't label "cleaned" or other issues, how would newbies ever learn? Trusting their local B&M? eBay listings? Asking over and over on this board? The coin in the video made it past a dealer who paid $30 to learn it was cleaned.
I've seen many times on this forum where very well educated collectors/dealers were surprised by a non-straight grade of some sort. If you had to be THAT well educated in order to collect coins, then there really wouldn't be a way to get started. I've got mercs that have been through rock tumblers (or something along those lines) and I could tell when I picked them (for free as a kid). I also have some raw coins that I'm just not sure about. They're not worth slabbing, but if they were, I wouldn't be shocked to find out that an expert knew something I didn't. I'd be bummed, but I'd also feel good that I didn't sell it to some kid as something it isn't.
I've been collecting and studying coins off and on for 20+ years and am barely scratching the surface (pun intended) of what there is to know. I don't even feel like I have a solid grasp on the difference between dipped and cleaned...or at least why one is sometimes OK and the other is a kiss of death even if takes a professional to tell.
As far as "UNC Detais" goes, it seems like there should be a better way to describe it, but I don't know what it is.
Perhaps the dealers opinion can be logically concluded that it is not UNC.
Personally I do not mind an "Unc Details" label as long as all the high point detail is there.
Also there has been a marketing component to selling an "Unc Details" coin versus "AU Details". "Unc Details" has a higher perceived value, and the market has accepted that fact.
I wouldn't say "unc details" makes no sense. I'd say it makes less cents.
As a relative renewbie, it seems like there are 3 categories that affect a coin's grading:
So I'd say the cleaning applies to category 3, whereas the Unc vs. AU details applies to category 2. They should be evaluated separately for grading. After all, why would you pay an expert (TPG) to give you their expert opinion about the state of a coin if you are only willing to hear about one aspect of that state?
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While steering clear of this subject matter debate, I've done some substantial business with Daniel and I have learned a lot from watching his videos. He is a straight shooter.
if this dealer had received the subject coin back from PCGS with the insert reading "AU details - Cleaned" he would be howling at the moon because PCGS can't recognize an Uncirculated coin when they see one. it seems clear to me that he doesn't understand the distinction between Mint State and AU.
I think he understands that distinction, just fine. If I remember correctly, he commented that at the time he submitted the coin, he thought t was unc. His argument seems to be that if you're gong to label a coin as "cleaned", don't call it "unc." too.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Mark, watching the video and especially listening to what he says leads me to infer that he doesn't really understand the technical aspects of grading.
Much ado about nothing. As others have noted, cleaned UNC coins look different than ones with minor wear or friction. Circulation literally means the coin was passed from hand to hand, so there's no semantic argument to be made that cleaning an UNC coin renders it circulated, either.
A knowledgeable guy with coins but I don’t agree with him on the issue. Uncirculated details is just that. You know the surfaces have been, Wiped/cleaned but still exhibits uncirculated details. No mixed signals there. What’s the problem?
if you are interested in a coin, you must read every single word of the listing and interpolate them to what they actually might mean before engaging in a purchase
"Puffing" is an art to sell and designed to make you purchase same
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Makes more sense then "Gemmy" to me any day.
WS