GTG 1831 NGC Half!
scotty4449
Posts: 716 ✭✭✭✭✭
I bought this a little while ago and was thinking of submitting to PCGS for crossover. What do you all think?
3
scotty4449
Posts: 716 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
It would bring more money in a PCGS holder. Given the CAC sticker, I would select a minimum grade at the current assigned grade.
First thought was 58 or 61.
EDIT: Original auction photos make the coin look better, IMO. I don't think it'll cross at grade, but who knows?
62
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My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
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Stipulate cross at grade or above.... if it does not, you will get it back intact. Good luck, Cheers, RickO
If you want it in a PCGS holder then I would give it a shot. I realize what the grade is and I believe it might cross at grade.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
You are right, here they are.
It does have a little of what people might refer to as "cabinet friction" I think
SPOILER ALERT!
Lots of options here.
You could cross at "any grade" just to get in PCGS plastic and then get it stickered in green, or gold if PCGS downgraded it. Remember the caution graders exercise with crossing. They must judge through plastic and aren't able to see the entire coin. Often they are conservative.
It would probably be a win as a PCGS 63 gold sticker or 64 green. Probably not as a 62 gold.
Another option, if the coin downgrades in an "any" cross attempt, is to then have it regraded. PCGS cracks a regrade and views the coin raw for a fairer shake. I have done this many times with high success.
As @TomB says, it might very well cross at grade and then you can easily get it restickered. This would be the best outcome and the cheapest. But it's not a slam dunk. Failure is money thrown away.
Lastly you could crack and submit it raw. But I wouldn't recommend it for this high grade coin. I have done this with low MS coins (I was sure wouldn't bodybag) and ended up with a higher PCGS grade. What a great surprise!
Lance.
Thanks lkeigwin, that was helpful! If it crossed, would getting it beaned again just be an administrative process with CAC?
Also, I would never trust myself to crack this coin!
Pretty. Looks ms, easy! I really like it. But.....cleaned? dipped? Who cares!
Yes, CAC will resticker if you provide proof (in the form of convincing photos). GC photos should be good enough.
Lance.
BTW, those dimples in Liberty's chest are mint-made from ejection fingers. Very common.
Lance.
Interesting, I wondered about those.
Do you think a PCGS X CAC is worth more or the same as a NGC X + 1 CAC? I wouldn't bet on a gold sticker if PCGS was stingy as CAC is very inconsistent with the gold sticker. I have seen multiple coins green bean at grade Y and also a Y+1 after regrade.
What’s wrong with keeping and enjoying the coin, as is?!
There are lots of ways to spend additional money, even to the extent that if the coin ends up in a PCGS/CAC holder of the same grade, any added value will have been offset by grading and postage fees. And of course, there’s no assurance that objective will even be met. Then, the added cost will have been wasted.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
63
BHNC #248 … 130 and counting.
62
Looked at the auction page after I guessed... my gut says PCGS would be at 63.
BHNC #248 … 130 and counting.
GTG 1831 NGC Half.
Unc. details, cleaned.
Dipped and dipped again. May actually go low MS.
You got to wonder if it has already been submitted to PCGS, maybe more than once. For some reason I prefer PCGS over NGC, but only if it is at the same grade or better.
Pffff... That's heresy.
On a serious note, I can understand the desire to have the coin in PCGS plastic from a practical stand point even if he wishes to keep it. The holders are easier to photograph and NGC slabs are tough to polish if you drop and/or scratch the slab.
Wow. A full luster, no rub, choice UNC NGC bust half with luster like the day it was made. Those aren't easy to find. While probably dipped out it's a fresh looking coin. I will admit that the auction photos hid those check scratches which are the only thing in question imo. But CAC liked it and they are stingy on bust halves....esp. ones in NGC holders. It's a real coin and probably worth 85-95% of the PCGS CAC price. If you want to try to cross at grade, then do it. But no way would I risk any chance of getting a downgrade. And if this downgraded I doubt very much it would do any better than a green sticker.
It's CAC'd and with a nice blazing look. Very few unc NGC CBH's get the sticker. Most in this grade are toned down and often hiding stuff. This one can't hide a darn thing. It's probably 1 out of 100 looking this. So what if not PCGS? Try to find a PCGS with these attributes. It won't be easy either. Last time I saw one was in 2009. A PCGS 1820's that was 98% brilliant but appeared never dipped....with a tiny rainbow crescent around 4:00 to 6:00 at the edge....sort of like looking at a bag fresh Morgan dollar. Peaked high points and absolutely zero rub anywhere. Probably the freshest for the grade I've ever seen. Coin was priced high too. This NGC coin has many of the characteristics of that PCGS coin....though with some striking weakness which is so common among the 1830's CBH's.
I like the coin a lot...looks like a 63+/shot 4.
I thought 63 at first before I clicked on the link... I guess the graders and CAC liked it a bit more! Beautiful piece! Congrats. ..
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While probably dipped out......................
yeah, maybe it's been dipped.
I will admit that the auction photos hid those check scratches which are the only thing in question imo
considering the sale venue, would you expect anything less??
Just guessing and generalizing, of course, but I would say about the same.
Agreed. CAC can be very inconsistent.
CAC will resticker at the same grade, correct? This is automatic (when documented to CAC's satisfaction).
I am assuming (and maybe shouldn't) that if the coin is proven to have previously been green-stickered at X and it is now proven to be the same coin but crossed to X-1 or lower that CAC would award a gold sticker. Anyone ever try this?
Lance.
What is that supposed to mean?
A lot of detail was obscured because the slab was filthy! You can especially notice it on the top right of the shield. I am surprised people don't think to just give the slab a simple cleaning before submitting for sale.
CAC generally will re-sticker if presented with evidence, but I have never heard of a guaranteed gold sticker. My understanding is that CAC still reserves the right to refuse to sticker even a straight cross once a coin is removed from the original slab. I've never had it happen to me, but I believe there was a thread here where someone had blue toned CACed copper that CAC refused to resticker when crossed to PCGS even after being informed of the previous results. Apparently CAC changed its stance on copper color. Was that you @robec ?
Not a coin I like. Looks dipped. Very flat stars on the obverse. Heavily worn die on the reverse with the lettering starting to bleed toward the rim. Common date.
If that's straight graded I'd suggest leaving it be. Those scratches might get recognized on a new label.
I generally agree. And yet @roadrunner finds the coin thrilling. Just goes to show that there's a ton of subjectivity in evaluating the desirability of any coin.
But it stickered...
I can't argue with that!
To be clear, I'm not disputing the grade/sticker. Just saying the coin is not to my personal taste.
I had a CAC stickered NGC 1911 Lincoln that crossed at the same grade. I sent the coin to CAC in the new PCGS slab where it didn't pass. Later on I resent the coin and photos of the coin in the CAC stickered NGC slab along with photos of the coin in both holders that showed the same markers (to prove it was the same coin). This time the coin came back with a sticker.
- Bob -
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Either it was someone else or I was mistaken. Thanks for the reply. @lkeigwin
My experience is a little backwards but maybe relevant. I had a gold-stickered NGC AU55 that crossed to PCGS as a 58 (later 58+). I sent it to CAC with documentation and photos and it green-stickered.
Not sure that proves anything, though.
Lance.
Never said it was "thrilling." I did say it was quite unusual and scarce to find a true, full blazing luster, basically white, no rub CBH....in an NGC holder no less....and then stickered to boot. CAC has seen it in hand. No one else here can say the same except the last seller, GC, and current owner. Strike is quite typical of the 1831-1835 period. If you want a full strike, and perfect surfaces in your 63/64's....you'll have to look long and hard....or stick to 1814 to 1826 CBH's. Not a fan of the cheek scratches though.
Sorry to misquote you. I should have said @roadrunner found the coin a "wow". Again, I'm NOT disputing the coin's grade or sticker-worthiness. The bottom line is I'm not a fan of dipped coins, especially very old silver ones. But as the old saying goes: my opinion and $5 will get you a latte (to go) at Starbucks. Cheers.
Yes! Thats why I had to have it. What on this coin would indicate to you that it was dipped? Just curious, not very savvy on such things.
The coin is roughly 190 years old and silver is a reactive metal. I'm not saying it's impossible, just extremely unlikely that its environment didn't tone it to some degree in all of that time.
Hold on, this coin isn't exactly only a few dollars investment, yet you aren't very savvy about its appearance? That is amazing.
Silver is going to tone (oxidize) and turn from bright, blinding white to various colors over time. The colors might be attractive (unlikely) or neutral (very likely) or not very nice (likely), but a 189-year old silver coin is not going to stay white (untoned) without having been dipped to remove the toning. Unless, of course, it was dropped into molten glass at the time of production and left there or was somehow sealed in a chamber with noble gases like argon or neon.
Your coin was dipped. Absolutely and positively. It may have been dipped multiple times or just once, but my educated guess is that it was dipped more than one time. Most collectors love this look and, in fact, prefer it. I don't, but I also recognize that the TPGs (NGC and PCGS) have little issue with dipped silver unless the dipping is so severe or repeated so many times that the luster is reduced or even killed off completely. Your coin appears to have acceptable luster, which is why I believe it might cross at grade.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Many collectors use TPGS and CAC as crutches to purchase coins based on the labels/stickers. While amazing, it isn't exactly surprising.
You aren't wrong, I don't think I would have bid on this coin without the CAC sticker. I have paid the price in the past!
If you are "not savvy on such things" should you be spending that kind of money on a coin? Think about it.
I see your point, but I have no problem spending that kind of money on a CAC MS 64 that I love!