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Why can’t I find any history of the 1853 Mobile Alabama Jockey Club

coinsarefuncoinsarefun Posts: 21,666 ✭✭✭✭✭

I have a more rare mule of this medal but I’ve never been able to find any information on the Mobile Alabama Jockey club. If any can chime in I would be very great great full.
This is the copper version which is rarer than the brass version. MGC MS64RB
On its way to me.
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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,898 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 4, 2020 11:48PM

    That token looks awesome @coinsarefun! Is that from Tim Gabriel?

    I'm not sure why it's so hard to find information on that club. I can find lots of tokens but not a lot of info. Is it known for certain that the club existed? Or did they make tokens for a proposed club that never came to fruition?

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    TomBTomB Posts: 20,733 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Zoins brings up a good point about the possibility of the club having been planned, but never formed.

    Another possibility is simply that the club failed or folded or merged or whatever so long ago and with such little fanfare that its history and existence became no more than a footnote in the history of another club. It seems to me that we live in a time where so much information can be found on the internet that many times we might assume that everything has been digitally transcribed or transferred and when that isn't the case we are left scratching our heads.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,898 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TomB said:
    Zoins brings up a good point about the possibility of the club having been planned, but never formed.

    Another possibility is simply that the club failed or folded or merged or whatever so long ago and with such little fanfare that its history and existence became no more than a footnote in the history of another club. It seems to me that we live in a time where so much information can be found on the internet that many times we might assume that everything has been digitally transcribed or transferred and when that isn't the case we are left scratching our heads.

    It's certainly a possibility that the club existed but there are no digitized records.

    When I research state / federal government or military records, a lot of records have been digitized by Google Books, but I'm currently researching a city medal which exists from multiple specimens engraved to specific people, but I can find no record for that medal ever being issued, just collector records from old catalogs in the NNP.

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    BLUEJAYWAYBLUEJAYWAY Posts: 8,036 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Have you tried to contact a Historical Society/Museum in that town?

    Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,898 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2020 1:07AM

    Does that look like Sir Archy or one of his descendants?

    Sir Archy sired or was the grandsire of many of the horses that ran in 1831 at the Tuscaloosa Jockey Club, including Wild Will-of-the-Woods. Sir Archy is considered the first great American thoroughbred. Ten of the Eleven Triple Crown winners are his descendants.

    http://druidcityliving.com/index.php/community/item/3176-tales-of-tuscaloosa-tuscaloosa-jockey-club

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    NumisOxideNumisOxide Posts: 10,989 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I like it! What size is it?

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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2020 5:25AM

    @coinsarefun .... Stef, contact the major Library in Mobile. Ask the librarian to help (they are amazing when it comes to research). I am sure that is where you will find information. Cheers, RickO

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    PQueuePQueue Posts: 901 ✭✭✭

    The Numismatist Vol 64, May 1951, p.530 at the Newman Numismatic Portal has a small write up on the token and the 40 varieties of mules, but nothing on the club.

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,898 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2020 9:05AM

    @PQueue said:
    The Numismatist Vol 64, May 1951, p.530 at the Newman Numismatic Portal has a small write up on the token and the 40 varieties of mules, but nothing on the club.

    It’s interesting there are so many different mules which seems to indicate the dies got into the hands of a numismatist.

    Is there a catalog of all the varieties? If not, it could be an interesting project.

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    1630Boston1630Boston Posts: 13,772 ✭✭✭✭✭

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    tokenprotokenpro Posts: 846 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The Jockey Club was founded in 1894. The Mobile Jockey Club tokens are Miller Storecard era circa 1850's and already appeared in auctions in the 1860's IIRC.

    The vast number of mules in the series (sorry, not intended) and the speculation that (similar to oh so many Civil War tokens) they were struck to the order of J.N.T. Levick makes one wonder if the Mobile Jockey Club was located in the die sinker's back room.

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    coinsarefuncoinsarefun Posts: 21,666 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I apologize for not getting back to everyone that replied but have had a few health issues....
    I really do want to thank each and everyone of you that made suggestions and offered help.
    I think there is some serious truth that the Mobile Jockey club was just in name only.
    It appears that Lovett did the dies at the order of Levick. Perhaps Levick took the idea of Jockey
    Club from the one in New York and since there were no real precision war trade tokens available
    in high mint state.
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    Below is one I’ve had for years and is one of the rarer mules that I purchased years ago and ever
    since then I’ve wanted a Members Medal. Either way, if it’s a real and obscure Jockey Club
    or one of Levicks Concoctions I really like it
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    AL (1860) MOBILE M-ALA-17 MOBILE JOCKEY CLUB NGC MS 64 BN
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    The auction description went as follows.
    September 2013 Philadelphia Auction Stacks Auction,
    From Heritage's sale of September 2006, lot 6192;
    and Dice-Hicks sale, July 2008, lot 3427.
    One of four examples of this Mule.

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    These are some of the snippets I’ve been able to find after your suggestions.
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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,898 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2020 11:12PM

    Just have to say I love Joseph Napoleon Tricot Levick's name :)

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    coinsarefuncoinsarefun Posts: 21,666 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BuffaloIronTail said:

    It appears that The Mobile Jockey Club had been around since at least October of 1842, which is when this article was published in a Mobile Newspaper.

    Pete

    Thanks so very much for posting this.....answered so many questions

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    coinsarefuncoinsarefun Posts: 21,666 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DCW said:

    @Zoins said:
    Just have to say I love Joseph Napoleon Tricot Levick's name :)

    Great name! Let's put a face to it:

    Great pic. He really was an active person in numismatics.
    Always keeping busy and to think he sold over 20,000 pieces back
    in 1884( I think) and still wrote about coins and tokens after.

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,898 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BuffaloIronTail said:

    It appears that The Mobile Jockey Club had been around since at least October of 1842, which is when this article was published in a Mobile Newspaper.

    Pete

    Awesome find!

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    ashelandasheland Posts: 22,694 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Great thread!

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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,559 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Are any known used? All non-used implies made for collectors.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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    JesseKraftJesseKraft Posts: 414 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Jesse C. Kraft, Ph.D.
    Resolute Americana Curator of American Numismatics
    American Numismatic Society
    New York City

    Member of the American Numismatic Association (ANA), British Numismatic Society (BNS), New York Numismatic Club (NYNC), Early American Copper (EAC), the Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), U.S. Mexican Numismatic Association (USMNA), Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC), Token and Medal Society (TAMS), and life member of the Atlantic County Numismatic Society (ACNS).
    Become a member of the American Numismatic Society!

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    CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,398 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I’m gonna go out on a limb and say you know every African-American member by name

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    JesseKraftJesseKraft Posts: 414 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2020 10:54PM

    @coinsarefun said:
    Thanks so very much!! Looks Like I’ll be reading fo a long time. thx!

    Have fun!

    Jesse C. Kraft, Ph.D.
    Resolute Americana Curator of American Numismatics
    American Numismatic Society
    New York City

    Member of the American Numismatic Association (ANA), British Numismatic Society (BNS), New York Numismatic Club (NYNC), Early American Copper (EAC), the Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), U.S. Mexican Numismatic Association (USMNA), Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC), Token and Medal Society (TAMS), and life member of the Atlantic County Numismatic Society (ACNS).
    Become a member of the American Numismatic Society!

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    JesseKraftJesseKraft Posts: 414 ✭✭✭✭✭

    We All Have Hobbies \ Mobile Jockey Club token. Rulau.Ala-14. White Metal, 27.8mm, 7.401g.
    American Numismatic Society, 1889.18.74

    Jesse C. Kraft, Ph.D.
    Resolute Americana Curator of American Numismatics
    American Numismatic Society
    New York City

    Member of the American Numismatic Association (ANA), British Numismatic Society (BNS), New York Numismatic Club (NYNC), Early American Copper (EAC), the Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), U.S. Mexican Numismatic Association (USMNA), Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC), Token and Medal Society (TAMS), and life member of the Atlantic County Numismatic Society (ACNS).
    Become a member of the American Numismatic Society!

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,898 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2020 11:01PM

    @JesseKraft said:
    We All Have Hobbies \ Mobile Jockey Club token. Rulau.Ala-14. White Metal, 27.8mm, 7.401g.
    American Numismatic Society, 1889.18.74

    Okay, that’s awesome!

    Donated way back in 1889! No provenance listed.

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    JesseKraftJesseKraft Posts: 414 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @JesseKraft said:
    We All Have Hobbies \ Mobile Jockey Club token. Rulau.Ala-14. White Metal, 27.8mm, 7.401g.
    American Numismatic Society, 1889.18.74

    Okay, that’s awesome!

    Donated way back in 1889! No provenance listed.

    Donated by Daniel Parish, Jr.

    Jesse C. Kraft, Ph.D.
    Resolute Americana Curator of American Numismatics
    American Numismatic Society
    New York City

    Member of the American Numismatic Association (ANA), British Numismatic Society (BNS), New York Numismatic Club (NYNC), Early American Copper (EAC), the Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), U.S. Mexican Numismatic Association (USMNA), Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC), Token and Medal Society (TAMS), and life member of the Atlantic County Numismatic Society (ACNS).
    Become a member of the American Numismatic Society!

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    coinsarefuncoinsarefun Posts: 21,666 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:
    That token looks awesome @coinsarefun! Is that from Tim Gabriel?

    >
    Yes, it’s from His collection. I’ve never heard of his collection. Do you have any background info on him?

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,898 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2020 7:56PM

    @coinsarefun said:

    @Zoins said:
    That token looks awesome @coinsarefun! Is that from Tim Gabriel?

    Yes, it’s from His collection. I’ve never heard of his collection. Do you have any background info on him?

    I don't have any background other than what little I've found online. i heard of him because he's sold previous collections before.

    His collection started with purchasing the Charles (Cheech) Litman collection but I haven't seen an provenance information for Cheech yet.

    Tim Gabriele wrote:

    I began this collection by accident on a rainy summer day some 13 years ago while on a trip with my wife to New York City. She wanted to spend some time shopping at Bloomingdale’s. I told her to have fun and that I would be visiting a coin dealer by the name of Lou DiLauro in the nearby Manhattan Antiques Mall. Before this visit, I had bought and sold only regular issue United States and world coins, but Lou showed me some medals and tokens that absolutely fascinated me. He told me that these had belonged to Pittsburgh coin dealer and collector Charles (Cheech) Litman, who had passed away some years previously. Cheech had acquired them from famed token collector and author Donald Miller. I had been friends with Cheech for a very long time, including working for him and cataloging coins for him back in 1982-1984.

    I thought to myself that it would be a great tribute to my long friendship with Cheech to purchase all of these tokens. So I bought them all even thought I had little knowledge of what they actually were. So, I quickly bought a copy of Russell Rulau’s compendium United States Tokens, 1700-1900 so that I could catalog the tokens and educate myself on my purchase. I also gave Mr. Rulau a call and asked if he had any tokens for sale. He sold me some merchant tokens, including the MS-66 “Smoker” in this collection.

    Over the years I have assembled, and sold through Stack’s Bowers Galleries many satisfying collections including a So-Called Dollar collection, a Bolen token collection, and a smaller Merchant token collection. The collection being offered now represents the finest specimens I could find during my years of active collecting. It features tokens from the holdings of great collectors and researchers who preceded me, including Donald Miller, Cheech Litman, Russell Rulau, and John J. Ford, Jr., among others.

    I hope that you enjoy these as much as I have, and wish you good luck in your bidding!

    Tim Gabriele

    June 22, 2020

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    coinsarefuncoinsarefun Posts: 21,666 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @coinsarefun said:

    @Zoins said:
    That token looks awesome @coinsarefun! Is that from Tim Gabriel?

    Yes, it’s from His collection. I’ve never heard of his collection. Do you have any background info on him?

    I don't have any background other than what little I've found online. i heard of him because he's sold previous collections before.

    His collection started with purchasing the Charles (Cheech) Litman collection but I haven't seen an provenance information for Cheech yet.

    Tim Gabriele wrote:
    I began this collection by accident on a rainy summer day some 13 years ago while on a trip with my wife to New York City. She wanted to spend some time shopping at Bloomingdale’s. I told her to have fun and that I would be visiting a coin dealer by the name of Lou DiLauro in the nearby Manhattan Antiques Mall. Before this visit, I had bought and sold only regular issue United States and world coins, but Lou showed me some medals and tokens that absolutely fascinated me. He told me that these had belonged to Pittsburgh coin dealer and collector Charles (Cheech) Litman, who had passed away some years previously. Cheech had acquired them from famed token collector and author Donald Miller. I had been friends with Cheech for a very long time, including working for him and cataloging coins for him back in 1982-1984.

    I thought to myself that it would be a great tribute to my long friendship with Cheech to purchase all of these tokens. So I bought them all even thought I had little knowledge of what they actually were. So, I quickly bought a copy of Russell Rulau’s compendium United States Tokens, 1700-1900 so that I could catalog the tokens and educate myself on my purchase. I also gave Mr. Rulau a call and asked if he had any tokens for sale. He sold me some merchant tokens, including the MS-66 “Smoker” in this collection.

    Over the years I have assembled, and sold through Stack’s Bowers Galleries many satisfying collections including a So-Called Dollar collection, a Bolen token collection, and a smaller Merchant token collection. The collection being offered now represents the finest specimens I could find during my years of active collecting. It features tokens from the holdings of great collectors and researchers who preceded me, including Donald Miller, Cheech Litman, Russell Rulau, and John J. Ford, Jr., among others.

    I hope that you enjoy these as much as I have, and wish you good luck in your bidding!

    Tim Gabriele

    June 22, 2020

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    What an amazing guy! And such great taste too. Well I feel extremely honored and lucky
    to own the Jockey medal. I had a feeling it might be one of the nicest around, I might be correct.
    This was like second or third out of the gate when the auction began so I placed my highest I felt comfortable with a got lucky.
    Thanks so much for the info

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    tokenprotokenpro Posts: 846 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've sold Tim a number of varied pieces over the years but I didn't recognize anything familiar in the recent sale.

    Cheech Litman did not have a collection as such -- as mentioned he had purchased the Donald Miller collection (as in Miller Storecards) and split and sold it in parts to a number of different token dealers. I bought a single row box of the Miller material at a FUN Show in the late 90's (?) that included quite a few unc 1876 Centennial Lingg produced storecards & a Morosonic Amulet in brass (Liberty Head type). Cheech passed away a number of years ago. I'm not sure if their store is still open but the family business Litman Coins is still in business in Pittsburgh -- in fact I just bought a partial roll of celluloid transportation tokens from them a week or so ago. Every purchase I've made lately always comes nicely gift wrapped!

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,898 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2021 10:53PM

    Were the Mobile Jockey Club tokens done by FC Key & Sons?

    I just ran across following Edwin Forrest tokens from Steve Hayden.

    • 1853 token Miller / Rulau AL 24
    • 1858 token Miller / Rulau PA 262B

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    MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,218 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I missed a lot of fun

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
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    Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 8,673 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A most enjoyable read, thanks to all who did the research to unlock the historical context. Peace Roy

    BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall

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    Pioneer1Pioneer1 Posts: 146 ✭✭✭

    This "excessively rare" silver Lovett piece just came to market... and then went off the market... it's newly graded by PCGS.

    A So-Called Dollar and Slug Collector... Previously "Pioneer" on this site...

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,898 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 7, 2023 11:29PM

    @Pioneer1 said:

    This "excessively rare" silver Lovett piece just came to market... and then went off the market... it's newly graded by PCGS.

    That's a very cool piece! Do you know who sold and/or owns it now?

    Here's the other one certified by PCGS.

    Nice to see these rarities with TrueViews.

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    DCWDCW Posts: 6,975 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I remember seeing no less than 2, and perhaps 3 silver pieces offered this past year. It's strange when something "excessively rare" like this is MIA for years and years and then appears in duplicate!
    Same thing happened when I was looking for a rare Merriam piece a couple years back. No trace for a decade, and then boom! Two at auction in a month's time. Had to buy them both at that point, because why buy one when you can have two at twice the price? :D

    Nice to revisit this thread with updated info. The Mobile Jockey Club pieces are very artistic. Always a joy to look at!

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

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    coinsarefuncoinsarefun Posts: 21,666 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DCW said:
    I remember seeing no less than 2, and perhaps 3 silver pieces offered this past year. It's strange when something "excessively rare" like this is MIA for years and years and then appears in duplicate!
    Same thing happened when I was looking for a rare Merriam piece a couple years back. No trace for a decade, and then boom! Two at auction in a month's time. Had to buy them both at that point, because why buy one when you can have two at twice the price? :D

    Nice to revisit this thread with updated info. The Mobile Jockey Club pieces are very artistic. Always a joy to look at!

    .
    I think the silver is still quite rare but several have shown up this past year in different dealer sites.
    I’ve noticed the smoker tokens showing up more this past year as well but, very few are in high grades.
    Also saw several in detail holders. So, if you want a high graded nice looking one the prices are going quite high.

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    Pioneer1Pioneer1 Posts: 146 ✭✭✭

    I agree with @DCW and @coinsarefun ... you wait for a decade looking for something... nothing... then wham...two come onto the market... that's exactly what happened with HK-1030 ... the small PPIE gold dollar Elder issued (struck by Kroll of NYC) .... there are supposedly 3 known... and 2 sold within a year or two of one another... one in a Kagin auction... and the other in a Heritage auction... 2017-2018 timeframe...

    A So-Called Dollar and Slug Collector... Previously "Pioneer" on this site...

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    DrDarrylDrDarryl Posts: 585 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2023 2:15PM

    1841 spring meeting (yellow highlight of Mobile)

    Took this snapshot 1843. Jockey Club of the city (Mobile) is mentioned.

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