Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@CoinJunkie said:
1849 $1, Open Wreath (P, C, D, O)
With the open wreath gold dollar, there are three different 1849 obverse types---a large head, a small head with L, and a small head with no L.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@MFeld said:
1907 High Relief - $20 gold Saint - Yes.
The High Relief is a little borderline with my criteria, but I put it on my own list because it is pretty easy to eyeball and you really don't have to look at a comparison to be know what it is.
Would the 2009 UHR restrike disqualify the 1907 version?
@ifthevamzarockin said:
Maybe you should change the thread title to....
Which US coins I can identify by looking at the reverse alone?
Sorry, dude. Without magnification and/or comparison to a non-1921 I don't see it. I can see the thinner head and neck and the eagle's left wing tip when side by side with another, but on it's own it looks like the reverse of any other Morgan. Still a No - excluded as die markers.
If you have a constructive point to make you are welcome to, but don't be insulting.
Like you said - My thread, my rules.
With respect to just the breast feathers, what about 1878’s?
There’s no problem.
You had posted “WOW! 21's are very easy to tell apart from other Morgans from the reverse. Take a look at the Breast Feathers!” To which I replied “With respect to just the breast feathers, what about 1878’s?”
I wasn’t saying that you could tell from the breast feathers, that a Morgan was an 1878. I was pointing out that contrary to what you posted, you couldn’t tell from the breast feathers, that a Morgan was a 1921. I merely gave the 1878 as an example.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld said:
1907 High Relief - $20 gold Saint - Yes.
1794 starred reverse cent - Yes.
1908-1915 Matte Proof $2 1/2, $5, $10 and $20 gold coins (if they haven’t been messed with, to the extent that their original color has been altered) - No. Cannot ID the year.
The High Relief is a little borderline with my criteria, but I put it on my own list because it is pretty easy to eyeball and you really don't have to look at a comparison to be know what it is.
Would the 2009 UHR restrike disqualify the 1907 version?
Thanks for starting this thread.
The 2009 UHR has IGWT on the reverse. The 1907 UHR doesn't.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@CoinJunkie said:
1849 $1, Open Wreath (P, C, D, O)
With the open wreath gold dollar, there are three different 1849 obverse types---a large head, a small head with L, and a small head with no L.
OK, for the branch mints or only for Philadelphia?
There's an open wreath and a closed wreath for the C mint. The D and O mints are all large head, closed wreaths only so their obverses can be identified from the reverses of these two mints..
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@MFeld said:
1907 High Relief - $20 gold Saint - Yes.
1794 starred reverse cent - Yes.
1908-1915 Matte Proof $2 1/2, $5, $10 and $20 gold coins (if they haven’t been messed with, to the extent that their original color has been altered) - No. Cannot ID the year.
The High Relief is a little borderline with my criteria, but I put it on my own list because it is pretty easy to eyeball and you really don't have to look at a comparison to be know what it is.
Would the 2009 UHR restrike disqualify the 1907 version?
Thanks for starting this thread.
The 2009 UHR has IGWT on the reverse. The 1907 UHR doesn't.
Aren’t they also noticeably smaller?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld said:
1907 High Relief - $20 gold Saint - Yes.
1794 starred reverse cent - Yes.
1908-1915 Matte Proof $2 1/2, $5, $10 and $20 gold coins (if they haven’t been messed with, to the extent that their original color has been altered) - No. Cannot ID the year.
The High Relief is a little borderline with my criteria, but I put it on my own list because it is pretty easy to eyeball and you really don't have to look at a comparison to be know what it is.
Would the 2009 UHR restrike disqualify the 1907 version?
Thanks for starting this thread.
The 2009 UHR has IGWT on the reverse. The 1907 UHR doesn't.
Aren’t they also noticeably smaller?
I assumed he was talking about the 1907 small size with the double thickness UHR pattern that the 2009 UHR was based on.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@CoinJunkie said:
1849 $1, Open Wreath (P, C, D, O)
With the open wreath gold dollar, there are three different 1849 obverse types---a large head, a small head with L, and a small head with no L.
OK, for the branch mints or only for Philadelphia?
There's an open wreath and a closed wreath for the C mint. The D and O mints are all large head, closed wreaths only so their obverses can be identified from the reverses of these two mints..
Nope. Actually I just realized that any gold dollar (or $3) without multiple obverses for the same date/MM meets the OP's criteria.
@ifthevamzarockin said:
Maybe you should change the thread title to....
Which US coins I can identify by looking at the reverse alone?
Sorry, dude. Without magnification and/or comparison to a non-1921 I don't see it. I can see the thinner head and neck and the eagle's left wing tip when side by side with another, but on it's own it looks like the reverse of any other Morgan. Still a No - excluded as die markers.
If you have a constructive point to make you are welcome to, but don't be insulting.
Like you said - My thread, my rules.
With respect to just the breast feathers, what about 1878’s?
There’s no problem.
You had posted “WOW! 21's are very easy to tell apart from other Morgans from the reverse. Take a look at the Breast Feathers!” To which I replied “With respect to just the breast feathers, what about 1878’s?”
I wasn’t saying that you could tell from the breast feathers, that a Morgan was an 1878. I was pointing out that contrary to what you posted, you couldn’t tell from the breast feathers, that a Morgan was a 1921. I merely gave the 1878 as an example.
@MFeld said:
1907 High Relief - $20 gold Saint - Yes.
1794 starred reverse cent - Yes.
1908-1915 Matte Proof $2 1/2, $5, $10 and $20 gold coins (if they haven’t been messed with, to the extent that their original color has been altered) - No. Cannot ID the year.
The High Relief is a little borderline with my criteria, but I put it on my own list because it is pretty easy to eyeball and you really don't have to look at a comparison to be know what it is.
Would the 2009 UHR restrike disqualify the 1907 version?
Thanks for starting this thread.
The 2009 UHR has IGWT on the reverse. The 1907 UHR doesn't.
Aren’t they also noticeably smaller?
I assumed he was talking about the 1907 small size with the double thickness UHR pattern that the 2009 UHR was based on.
Sorry about that. I bet you’re correct.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@numismapiddler said:
Exclude die markers, errors, patterns, and commemoratives. "Error" exclusion to include RPMs, DD, missing initials, etc.
Able to identify the specific coin, date mint, type by the reverse alone. Example: 1859 Philadelphia Indian cent. Cannot be any other date/mint/type by the reverse alone.
I have my list, interested to see what I overlooked.
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The term you are looking for is "reverse design variety" - what dates (w/ mint) can be identified by reverse design variety, alone? Good idea for a thread.
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@BryceM said:
1921 Peace dollar. Tons of Morgan and Peace VAMs. Many other varieties in many series.
VAMs and such are excluded. 1921 Peace Dollar - No. Could be a 1922 HR.
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Wrong. The 1921 and 1922 High Relief peace dollars have a different reverse design variety and are easy to tell apart from the reverse, alone.
If I were at your skill level, I would not dismiss anyone who was willing to help educate me. You've got a long way to go...
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1971-S $1 silver business strike and 1971-D $1 Friendly Eagle Variety can both be identified by reverse design variety, alone. @numismapiddler , you may not be able to identify these right now, but hopefully you will as you learn more and your skill increases.
I knew a $20 gold dealer who could identify the year by the reverse; many coins especially those that a dealer is an expert in having seen thousands of examples, have peculiarities that are noticeable. (Jack Kleinman--and only $20 Libs.)
@BryceM said:
1921 Peace dollar. Tons of Morgan and Peace VAMs. Many other varieties in many series.
VAMs and such are excluded. 1921 Peace Dollar - No. Could be a 1922 HR.
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Wrong. The 1921 and 1922 High Relief peace dollars have a different reverse design variety and are easy to tell apart from the reverse, alone.
>
I disagree that they are "easy to tell". In fact, the only known MS examples apparently floated around for 70 years or more before anyone noticed them. Differences do not pass the eyeball test.
If I were at your skill level, I would not dismiss anyone who was willing to help educate me. You've got a long way to go...
I do not consider myself an expert and never will. However, as I have done my best to explain (apparently poorly) I don't want to include die differences that would require anything beyond some basic knowledge of the type. Otherwise, the list would be huge. Same for varieties and errors - way too many. And these often would not pas the eyeball test anyway as they often for months/years before the first one is identified. This includes many many "experts" who overlook them. If I discovered a new variety of Ike, say missing the star under the "RI", and sat it down on the table reverse side up for sale at $3; I'll bet you would not notice the variety, and turn down the $3. After one sells for $20K at auction, you'll see it immediately if you are an IKE guy, but the Early Coppers expert sitting two tables down still would not notice.
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1971-S $1 silver business strike and 1971-D $1 Friendly Eagle Variety can both be identified by reverse design variety, alone. @numismapiddler , you may not be able to identify these right now, but hopefully you will as you learn more and your skill increases.
1971-S 40% MS - Please comment further on this one. I was my understanding these were all variety 1 dies also used for clad 71's and some 72's.
Friendly eagle - die variety.
Honorable Mention:
1870 - S - Since the 1873 - S is unknown
1921 - In EF or better. (Breast Feathers)
1921-D - In EF or better. (Breast feathers)
1935 - S - 4 rays
Looking into a few Ike's - will update.
Modern Dollars:
2000 Cheerios
Innovation Reverse Proofs - All
BryceM said:
1921 Peace dollar. Tons of Morgan and Peace VAMs. Many other varieties in many series.
VAMs and such are excluded. 1921 Peace Dollar - No. Could be a 1922 HR.
.
Wrong. The 1921 and 1922 High Relief peace dollars have a different reverse design variety and are easy to tell apart from the reverse, alone.
>
I disagree that they are "easy to tell". In fact, the only known MS examples apparently floated around for 70 years or more before anyone noticed them. Differences do not pass the eyeball test.
I believe you are missing the point. Broadly speaking, there are many die varieties that could be identified to date and mint by the reverse alone, using such markers as die breaks, dents, scratches, mintmark placement, etc. There is a much smaller subset of coins that can be identified to date/mint because the reverse is different by design, in other words, because it has a reverse design variety that, by itself, can confirm the date & mint.
Design varieties are a subset of die varieties that were created with intent - someone actually carved those designs to be different from one another. The differences may be large or small. You may find some of them to be cryptic or uninteresting, while others do not.
Write what you like, make the list you like. I see nothing to be gained by writing dismissive comments to people who made useful contributions to the thread. Their comments are read and appreciated by others, in any case.
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I do not consider myself an expert and never will. However, as I have done my best to explain (apparently poorly) I don't want to include die differences that would require anything beyond some basic knowledge of the type. Otherwise, the list would be huge.
No, if we are limiting it to reverse design varieties, it would be relatively small. However, take from the comments what you will. I'm not interested in limits based on "basic knowledge"; I'm interested in seeing more examples of reverse design varieties that can be used to identify dates in different series.
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1971-S 40% MS - Please comment further on this one. I was my understanding these were all variety 1 dies also used for clad 71's and some 72's.
In this case, I'm also presuming the viewer has a preexisting ability to recognize silver. If you see a silver MS IKE with a Type 1 reverse, that can only be a 1971-S. The same design variety was also used on some CuNi Clad 1971 P&D and 1972 P&D Ikes, so a CuNi Clad Ike cannot be identified to date & mint based on a Type 1 reverse, alone. However, a CuNi Clad Ike with a Type 2 reverse can only be 1972.
A Type 1 reverse on a silver proof Ike can only be a 1971-S, as well. Given their extreme rarity, some people view these as patterns, but as any mint records that might have pertained to these have likely been purged, we are left to speculate on their origin.
Don't want to consider MS vs. proof? That's fine. Others may find it useful.
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Friendly eagle - die variety.
Once again, it is a reverse design variety, which is exactly what we've been talking about. If you see an IKE with a Friendly Eagle reverse, it can only be a 1971-D. If you don't think the Friendly Eagle reverse is a different design than the common Type 1 reverse, you haven't looked at it properly.
When you look at two different designs and have difficulty telling them apart, it may be due to lack of experience, or simply not looking carefully enough. For example, the difference between a 2000-P Cheerios Dollar and a regular 2000-P SAC dollar is the enhanced tail feathers, right? In other words, they're hardly different at all, right? That's what many people assume, because they've never bothered to examine a photo of the coin. In reality, the coins would be more accurately described as having two different eagles. The basic shape/outline of the eagles matches quite closely, but beyond that, there are design changes all over the eagle.
Your list has what I presume to be a typo. Edit to change 1850 Indian cent to 1859 Indian cent.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Bullion
Platinum Proofs - All except 1997
First Spouse Gold - All
2019-W Palladium Reverse Proof
Add NM or No Motto after the 1908-D.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
1921 P Morgan - No. Cannot determine date.
1921 S Morgan - No. Cannot determine date.
1921 D Morgan - Yes. Only D Morgan.
Totally different reverse hub used in 1921, so all three are easily determined even in low grade.
1878 8TF Morgan $1
1875-S 20c
1796 25c
2009-S Proof 1c
Every other modern proof issue that had annual reverses (5c, Sac $1)
Assorted Platinum eagles when they had annual reverses.
1859-S $1
Once again, it is a reverse design variety, which is exactly what we've been talking about. If you see an IKE with a Friendly Eagle reverse, it can only be a 1971-D. If you don't think the Friendly Eagle reverse is a different design than the common Type 1 reverse, you haven't looked at it properly.
When you look at two different designs and have difficulty telling them apart, it may be due to lack of experience, or simply not looking carefully enough. For example, the difference between a 2000-P Cheerios Dollar and a regular 2000-P SAC dollar is the enhanced tail feathers, right? In other words, they're hardly different at all, right? That's what many people assume, because they've never bothered to examine a photo of the coin. In reality, the coins would be more accurately described as having two different eagles. The basic shape/outline of the eagles matches quite closely, but beyond that, there are design changes all over the eagle.
I understand what you are saying, but I had to limit the scope of the post. Otherwise, the list becomes unwieldy. After that, it becomes a question of semantics (what is major vs. minor). I did think about the friendly eagle myself but left it out. I was expecting an argument on this one - surprised it did not come sooner. It is pretty easy to see if you are looking closely, but I think you have to be looking pretty hard to spot it. Just flipping of the back of a coin, I don't think you can notice it unless you are accustomed to looking at hundreds on a regular basis. Also, Is it a die variety or an intentional design difference? I went with die variety. I do see the other side on this one.
I would like to see some posts similar to mine with lists for all unique reverses, including things like MM size etc., but that would have to be limited at least by series. I would want an expert in the series to moderate as I would not have time to research the specifics. Maybe I could research Ikes (only 7-8 years), but something like Morgans or Barber series - no way.
@ifthevamzarockin said: "I'm not going to count it since the difference was not that easy to spot. initially."
Your thread, your rules.
Any TPG can tell a 1921 in P01 or worse & most collectors can also.
You asked for coins that can be identified by reverse alone and the 1921's can.
I agree.....1921 Morgans are very easy to tell from the 1878-1904.
@ChrisH821 said:
1878-CC Morgan- the only CC with reverse of 1878
1878 Rev of 78 or 7/8TF
Can I solicit some input on these? Are they unique to 1878 and these specific coins only? Is this usually considered a VAM or a separate design in the Morgan community? Thanks.
@ChrisH821 said:
1878-CC Morgan- the only CC with reverse of 1878
1878 Rev of 78 or 7/8TF
Can I solicit some input on these? Are they unique to 1878 and these specific coins only? Is this usually considered a VAM or a separate design in the Morgan community? Thanks.
Nope on the 78-CC. 1880-CC has some of the same reverses.
Yes on the 7TF Rev of 78 and 7/8TF, and these are considered as a redesign of the reverse.
Once again, it is a reverse design variety, which is exactly what we've been talking about. If you see an IKE with a Friendly Eagle reverse, it can only be a 1971-D. If you don't think the Friendly Eagle reverse is a different design than the common Type 1 reverse, you haven't looked at it properly.
When you look at two different designs and have difficulty telling them apart, it may be due to lack of experience, or simply not looking carefully enough. For example, the difference between a 2000-P Cheerios Dollar and a regular 2000-P SAC dollar is the enhanced tail feathers, right? In other words, they're hardly different at all, right? That's what many people assume, because they've never bothered to examine a photo of the coin. In reality, the coins would be more accurately described as having two different eagles. The basic shape/outline of the eagles matches quite closely, but beyond that, there are design changes all over the eagle.
I understand what you are saying, but I had to limit the scope of the post. Otherwise, the list becomes unwieldy. After that, it becomes a question of semantics (what is major vs. minor). I did think about the friendly eagle myself but left it out. I was expecting an argument on this one - surprised it did not come sooner. It is pretty easy to see if you are looking closely, but I think you have to be looking pretty hard to spot it. Just flipping of the back of a coin, I don't think you can notice it unless you are accustomed to looking at hundreds on a regular basis. Also, Is it a die variety or an intentional design difference? I went with die variety. I do see the other side on this one.
It is not my intention to discourage you - this is a good idea for a thread, and I'd like to see it continue. You've had encouragement from the group, which I am glad to see. I believe there is also room for learning & improvement.
You've rejected only a handful of examples that are actually reverse design varieties. They hardly made the list unwieldy. You have come to the group and asked for collaboration on this topic. One of the benefits of that is that you do not have to vet every single submission - if you have questions on any coins that are beyond your ability to answer, it's likely someone else can.
I can define what a reverse design variety is. I can't define precisely what you are asking for, but it seems to be something like "I want reverse design varieties, except for ones that aren't quite obvious enough to catch my eye". If you're going to the trouble of making a list, it ought to be useful to as many people as possible, IMO. I suspect almost anyone looking at a list of RDV's would expect it to include such coins as the 1921 Morgan dollars, 1921 Peace dollar, and 1971-D Friendly Eagle dollar. If you make a list that is intentionally incomplete and based on subjective/undefined criteria, other people will find it confusing or misleading.
Terms like "major" and "minor" are arbitrary/subjective terms that have no real numismatic meaning. They may be useful to TPG's to indicate what varieties they will or will not fully attribute, and they may align with popular vs. less popular varieties. They certainly do not indicate what is or is not a design variety.
Learning the terminology and using it correctly may help you frame your thoughts on this topic. Terms like "die variety", "error", and "design variety" all have a specific meaning and should not be thrown around carelessly. A design is not a matter of opinion; it is a design because someone designed it.
Comments
1883 no cents nickel.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
1849 $1, Open Wreath (P, C, D, O)
With the open wreath gold dollar, there are three different 1849 obverse types---a large head, a small head with L, and a small head with no L.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Would the 2009 UHR restrike disqualify the 1907 version?
Thanks for starting this thread.
There’s no problem.
You had posted “WOW! 21's are very easy to tell apart from other Morgans from the reverse. Take a look at the Breast Feathers!” To which I replied “With respect to just the breast feathers, what about 1878’s?”
I wasn’t saying that you could tell from the breast feathers, that a Morgan was an 1878. I was pointing out that contrary to what you posted, you couldn’t tell from the breast feathers, that a Morgan was a 1921. I merely gave the 1878 as an example.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The 2009 UHR has IGWT on the reverse. The 1907 UHR doesn't.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
OK, for the branch mints or only for Philadelphia?
There's an open wreath and a closed wreath for the C mint. The D and O mints are all large head, closed wreaths only so their obverses can be identified from the reverses of these two mints..
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Aren’t they also noticeably smaller?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I assumed he was talking about the 1907 small size with the double thickness UHR pattern that the 2009 UHR was based on.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Nope. Actually I just realized that any gold dollar (or $3) without multiple obverses for the same date/MM meets the OP's criteria.
Really? Lay out a few hundred and I bet I can pick out every 21!
Sorry about that. I bet you’re correct.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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The term you are looking for is "reverse design variety" - what dates (w/ mint) can be identified by reverse design variety, alone? Good idea for a thread.
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.
.
Wrong. The 1921 and 1922 High Relief peace dollars have a different reverse design variety and are easy to tell apart from the reverse, alone.
If I were at your skill level, I would not dismiss anyone who was willing to help educate me. You've got a long way to go...
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.
1971-S $1 silver business strike and 1971-D $1 Friendly Eagle Variety can both be identified by reverse design variety, alone. @numismapiddler , you may not be able to identify these right now, but hopefully you will as you learn more and your skill increases.
I started buying coins in 1999. It’s threads like this that remind me that “ I know nothing.”
Has anyone mentioned a 1848 CAL 2.5?
Yes.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I knew a $20 gold dealer who could identify the year by the reverse; many coins especially those that a dealer is an expert in having seen thousands of examples, have peculiarities that are noticeable. (Jack Kleinman--and only $20 Libs.)
>
I disagree that they are "easy to tell". In fact, the only known MS examples apparently floated around for 70 years or more before anyone noticed them. Differences do not pass the eyeball test.
I do not consider myself an expert and never will. However, as I have done my best to explain (apparently poorly) I don't want to include die differences that would require anything beyond some basic knowledge of the type. Otherwise, the list would be huge. Same for varieties and errors - way too many. And these often would not pas the eyeball test anyway as they often for months/years before the first one is identified. This includes many many "experts" who overlook them. If I discovered a new variety of Ike, say missing the star under the "RI", and sat it down on the table reverse side up for sale at $3; I'll bet you would not notice the variety, and turn down the $3. After one sells for $20K at auction, you'll see it immediately if you are an IKE guy, but the Early Coppers expert sitting two tables down still would not notice.
1971-S 40% MS - Please comment further on this one. I was my understanding these were all variety 1 dies also used for clad 71's and some 72's.
Friendly eagle - die variety.
OK. Starting a summary:
Please note if I am missing some identified.
Half Cents:
I have one - Do not think it has been listed.
Cents:
1793 Chain
1794 Starred Rev.
1859 Indian
I have one more.
Two Cents:
None.
Silver 3 Cents:
1851-O
Nickel 3 Cents:
None.
Nickels:
1883 without cents
1912-D
1912-S
1913 Type I
I have 2 more.
Half Dimes:
1860-O
Dimes:
1798/7 16 stars on rev.
1875-CC above bow.
1875-S above bow.
Twenty Cents:
1875-S
Quarters:
1796
1853 Rays
1853-O Rays
I have 1 more.
Honorable Mention:
1892
1892-O
1892-S
Will continue with Halves in a moment.
3-legged Buffalo?
Morgan 1921 S Even WITHOUT MINTMARK... Just by feeling the edge of the coin...different collar.
Please excuse my poor typing. Is there a way to keep this program from saving my draft while I am still typing?
Not that I'm aware of, unfortunately. I guess you could compose your message in an editor and then paste it in.
Variety/error.
Half Dollars:
1853 Rays
1853-O Rays
1964-D
Trade Dollars:
None.
Silver/Clad Dollars:
1859-S
1921-D
Honorable Mention:
1870 - S - Since the 1873 - S is unknown
1921 - In EF or better. (Breast Feathers)
1921-D - In EF or better. (Breast feathers)
1935 - S - 4 rays
Looking into a few Ike's - will update.
Modern Dollars:
2000 Cheerios
Innovation Reverse Proofs - All
Gold Dollars:
All - Lol took awhile to get these.
Quarter Eagles $2.50:
1808
1848 CAL
I have 1 more.
3 Dollar Gold:
All
Half Eagles $5:
1795
1909-O
I have 1 more.
Will update and finish 10, 20, and bullion tomorrow.
Sorry need to go for now.
I believe you are missing the point. Broadly speaking, there are many die varieties that could be identified to date and mint by the reverse alone, using such markers as die breaks, dents, scratches, mintmark placement, etc. There is a much smaller subset of coins that can be identified to date/mint because the reverse is different by design, in other words, because it has a reverse design variety that, by itself, can confirm the date & mint.
Design varieties are a subset of die varieties that were created with intent - someone actually carved those designs to be different from one another. The differences may be large or small. You may find some of them to be cryptic or uninteresting, while others do not.
Write what you like, make the list you like. I see nothing to be gained by writing dismissive comments to people who made useful contributions to the thread. Their comments are read and appreciated by others, in any case.
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No, if we are limiting it to reverse design varieties, it would be relatively small. However, take from the comments what you will. I'm not interested in limits based on "basic knowledge"; I'm interested in seeing more examples of reverse design varieties that can be used to identify dates in different series.
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In this case, I'm also presuming the viewer has a preexisting ability to recognize silver. If you see a silver MS IKE with a Type 1 reverse, that can only be a 1971-S. The same design variety was also used on some CuNi Clad 1971 P&D and 1972 P&D Ikes, so a CuNi Clad Ike cannot be identified to date & mint based on a Type 1 reverse, alone. However, a CuNi Clad Ike with a Type 2 reverse can only be 1972.
A Type 1 reverse on a silver proof Ike can only be a 1971-S, as well. Given their extreme rarity, some people view these as patterns, but as any mint records that might have pertained to these have likely been purged, we are left to speculate on their origin.
Don't want to consider MS vs. proof? That's fine. Others may find it useful.
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Once again, it is a reverse design variety, which is exactly what we've been talking about. If you see an IKE with a Friendly Eagle reverse, it can only be a 1971-D. If you don't think the Friendly Eagle reverse is a different design than the common Type 1 reverse, you haven't looked at it properly.
When you look at two different designs and have difficulty telling them apart, it may be due to lack of experience, or simply not looking carefully enough. For example, the difference between a 2000-P Cheerios Dollar and a regular 2000-P SAC dollar is the enhanced tail feathers, right? In other words, they're hardly different at all, right? That's what many people assume, because they've never bothered to examine a photo of the coin. In reality, the coins would be more accurately described as having two different eagles. The basic shape/outline of the eagles matches quite closely, but beyond that, there are design changes all over the eagle.
Your list has what I presume to be a typo. Edit to change 1850 Indian cent to 1859 Indian cent.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
1798/7 16-stars dime.
Did anyone mention the 1859-S Seated dollar?
Nice idea for a thread.
Yes. Did not have this one. Added and I found another.
Added to list.
Gold Eagle $10:
1907 Wire Rim
1908-D No Motto
Gold Double Eagle $20:
1861 Paquet
1861-S Paquet
1907 High Relief
Bullion
Platinum Proofs - All except 1997
First Spouse Gold - All
2019-W Palladium Reverse Proof
Add NM or No Motto after the 1908-D.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Why reverse dies?
Because:
Most coins are mullets.
Business in the front, party in the back.
Totally different reverse hub used in 1921, so all three are easily determined even in low grade.
1878 8TF Morgan $1
1875-S 20c
1796 25c
2009-S Proof 1c
Every other modern proof issue that had annual reverses (5c, Sac $1)
Assorted Platinum eagles when they had annual reverses.
1859-S $1
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
1878-CC Morgan- the only CC with reverse of 1878 oops- wrong on that one
1878 Rev of 78 or 7/8TF
Collector, occasional seller
I understand what you are saying, but I had to limit the scope of the post. Otherwise, the list becomes unwieldy. After that, it becomes a question of semantics (what is major vs. minor). I did think about the friendly eagle myself but left it out. I was expecting an argument on this one - surprised it did not come sooner. It is pretty easy to see if you are looking closely, but I think you have to be looking pretty hard to spot it. Just flipping of the back of a coin, I don't think you can notice it unless you are accustomed to looking at hundreds on a regular basis. Also, Is it a die variety or an intentional design difference? I went with die variety. I do see the other side on this one.
I would like to see some posts similar to mine with lists for all unique reverses, including things like MM size etc., but that would have to be limited at least by series. I would want an expert in the series to moderate as I would not have time to research the specifics. Maybe I could research Ikes (only 7-8 years), but something like Morgans or Barber series - no way.
I agree.....1921 Morgans are very easy to tell from the 1878-1904.
Can I solicit some input on these? Are they unique to 1878 and these specific coins only? Is this usually considered a VAM or a separate design in the Morgan community? Thanks.
Nope on the 78-CC. 1880-CC has some of the same reverses.
Yes on the 7TF Rev of 78 and 7/8TF, and these are considered as a redesign of the reverse.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
1792 H10C not pattern. Great research done on that
Is this usually considered a VAM or a separate design in the Morgan community? Thanks.
All Morgan & Peace dollars are a Vam.
Do forget the 1879-O $20. It is the only Type 3 twenty from the "O" mint.
Ok, ok. How about Washington Quarter 1964 D, Type "C" Reverse?
Yes.
Also:
1936 25c proof
1968-S 25c proof Type G Reverse
1973-s 1c proof
It is not my intention to discourage you - this is a good idea for a thread, and I'd like to see it continue. You've had encouragement from the group, which I am glad to see. I believe there is also room for learning & improvement.
You've rejected only a handful of examples that are actually reverse design varieties. They hardly made the list unwieldy. You have come to the group and asked for collaboration on this topic. One of the benefits of that is that you do not have to vet every single submission - if you have questions on any coins that are beyond your ability to answer, it's likely someone else can.
I can define what a reverse design variety is. I can't define precisely what you are asking for, but it seems to be something like "I want reverse design varieties, except for ones that aren't quite obvious enough to catch my eye". If you're going to the trouble of making a list, it ought to be useful to as many people as possible, IMO. I suspect almost anyone looking at a list of RDV's would expect it to include such coins as the 1921 Morgan dollars, 1921 Peace dollar, and 1971-D Friendly Eagle dollar. If you make a list that is intentionally incomplete and based on subjective/undefined criteria, other people will find it confusing or misleading.
Terms like "major" and "minor" are arbitrary/subjective terms that have no real numismatic meaning. They may be useful to TPG's to indicate what varieties they will or will not fully attribute, and they may align with popular vs. less popular varieties. They certainly do not indicate what is or is not a design variety.
Learning the terminology and using it correctly may help you frame your thoughts on this topic. Terms like "die variety", "error", and "design variety" all have a specific meaning and should not be thrown around carelessly. A design is not a matter of opinion; it is a design because someone designed it.
1909 VDB Proof Lincoln Cent (provided that the viewer of the coin knows the diagnostics that establish that the coin is a Proof].