Based upon what I see in the grooves there was no metal laying on the planchet during it’ striking
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
My take is that in a struck thru, the entire piece needed to be pressed into the planchet for the rest of the obverse to be struck up by the die.
However, on your coin, it seems the rounded effect also affects the edges of of the struck up numbers. But, a struck thru would need to have been fully embedded in the coin, especially if it was hard enough (metal) to have left those lines in the trough.
@FredWeinberg said:
Thanks for the nice words but I’m not THE Expert – just one of many who has dealt in Mint error Coins for a long time
Fred, I started doing this when I joined Clearinghouse in 1974, and I have learned a lot of stuff from you!
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
My 2 cents. PMD. Why ? Because Mr Weinberg said so. Not being an A## here. I just know from past posts that HE IS THE MAN to ask in matters such as this.
@FredWeinberg said:
IMO, if those cuts were on the planchet before the coin was struck, you would’ve expected to see some “ghost like” image of the digit inside of the canyon area - and all we see is flat thin parallel lines inside the Grooves,With no hint of the digit
How would there be any indication of a digit in an area that didn't have material when struck? -Strike-through, yes, but not if there was nothing there to begin with.
How does one explain the weakness on the reverse that is exactly opposite the grooves? It's slight but definitely there, and those are the only letters showing weakness.
We can see in the lower groove where material was pushed into it- that material appears to be level with the fields. This could only happen from being struck with a groove in the planchet.
If this was cut by a rotary tool like many are saying, there would be rough burrs on the edges of the cut. Besides that, there is no way to cut with a tool like that right up to the edge of an internal feature- the rim.
I'm sorry I have to disagree with the experts here, but I can't see this as anything other than groove in the planchet before striking- an error coin.
That is how I see it and I feel strongly about this.
If the deep grooves were on the blank/planchet before it was struck,
the striking pressure would 'soften' the texture inside the groove -
instead, we see fine parallel lines inside. And, the striking pressure
would deform the grooves, at least to an extent that would be noticeable,
and I believe that you would also see some 'ghosting' of the digits inside
the grooves.
The Upset Mill operation would have also covered the rim area, below
and just to the right of the '1'. Notice that one groove ends before the
rim, and the other goes over the rims at both ends.
The rims at each end of the top first, or larger indented areas would not
exist if they were there before the planchet was struck.
And as far as there being something ON the planchet when it was struck,
those areas do not have a struck thru anything look for that thickness and
depth, imo.
Just my opinion, but I don't see this as an error - but I'm ready to stand
corrected.
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
@wrthtuppence .... Welcome aboard..... Mr. Weinberg's detailed explanation above defines this as PMD... This was a great example for discussion and thanks for posting it. Great pictures as well, that certainly helps. Cheers, RickO
Comments
Based upon what I see in the grooves there was no metal laying on the planchet during it’ striking
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
My take is that in a struck thru, the entire piece needed to be pressed into the planchet for the rest of the obverse to be struck up by the die.
However, on your coin, it seems the rounded effect also affects the edges of of the struck up numbers. But, a struck thru would need to have been fully embedded in the coin, especially if it was hard enough (metal) to have left those lines in the trough.
Fred, I started doing this when I joined Clearinghouse in 1974, and I have learned a lot of stuff from you!
TD
PMD
Who might that be?
ttt
tomorrow
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
I'm in the Dremel camp.
My 2 cents. PMD. Why ? Because Mr Weinberg said so. Not being an A## here. I just know from past posts that HE IS THE MAN to ask in matters such as this.
How would there be any indication of a digit in an area that didn't have material when struck? -Strike-through, yes, but not if there was nothing there to begin with.
How does one explain the weakness on the reverse that is exactly opposite the grooves? It's slight but definitely there, and those are the only letters showing weakness.
We can see in the lower groove where material was pushed into it- that material appears to be level with the fields. This could only happen from being struck with a groove in the planchet.
If this was cut by a rotary tool like many are saying, there would be rough burrs on the edges of the cut. Besides that, there is no way to cut with a tool like that right up to the edge of an internal feature- the rim.
I'm sorry I have to disagree with the experts here, but I can't see this as anything other than groove in the planchet before striking- an error coin.
That is how I see it and I feel strongly about this.
Collector, occasional seller
Maybe it was the same guy that started this, but decided to ditch it and move on?
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.To make a cut out coin you start by drilling a hole, then put the coping saw blade through it.
Collector, occasional seller
It's pmd, absolutely positively and I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night. Peace Roy
BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall, coinsarefun, MichaelDixon, NickPatton, ProfLiz, Twobitcollector,Jesbroken oih82w8, DCW
If the deep grooves were on the blank/planchet before it was struck,
the striking pressure would 'soften' the texture inside the groove -
instead, we see fine parallel lines inside. And, the striking pressure
would deform the grooves, at least to an extent that would be noticeable,
and I believe that you would also see some 'ghosting' of the digits inside
the grooves.
The Upset Mill operation would have also covered the rim area, below
and just to the right of the '1'. Notice that one groove ends before the
rim, and the other goes over the rims at both ends.
The rims at each end of the top first, or larger indented areas would not
exist if they were there before the planchet was struck.
And as far as there being something ON the planchet when it was struck,
those areas do not have a struck thru anything look for that thickness and
depth, imo.
Just my opinion, but I don't see this as an error - but I'm ready to stand
corrected.
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
@wrthtuppence .... Welcome aboard..... Mr. Weinberg's detailed explanation above defines this as PMD... This was a great example for discussion and thanks for posting it. Great pictures as well, that certainly helps. Cheers, RickO
Gringing wheel
PMD
COINS FOR SALE, IN LINK BELOW
https://photos.app.goo.gl/KCJYQg9x5sPJiCBc9